[Closed] Liberté, égalité, fraternité

No no, it's quite fair. Poor people are thick and you don't want poor people getting edumacated and then end up running things, do you now?

Otherwise you'd have scum like me and Binners and that, in charge of stuff.....

Sir Peter Lampl, chairman of the Sutton Trust, said: “We know these stark inequalities in university progression rates are driven primarily by the exam results in schools, yet the data we are publishing today also reveals that [u]university chances can vary dramatically for schools with similar average grades[/u]. Our hope is that by making these figures available, the spotlight on schools will widen to encompass the actual destinations of pupils after they have left, alongside their A-level results.”

Id like to see what they think is the cause of the latter phenomenon.

(With apologies to Stoner...)

We had a version of UCAS called CAO (Central Applications Office), in Ireland. You were assigned a CAO number and listed up to 10 choices for University places. Points were awarded for grades in the Leaving Certificate (hooray for plain English) - so say if there were 57 places for Medicine in Trinity College Dublin, and 70 applications were made according to first choice, then the points level of the 57th applicant was deemed the "Points" for the course that year. Around 60 people might be offered the course...10 might turn it down, so the remaining 7 places would be offered to the next 7 people who didn't make it in the first place.

(places offered, etc would be based on statistical offer:refusal:acceptance ratios of previous years)

All the offers were made by CAO - [b][i]not[/i][/b] by the Universities.

It is a completely anonymous system. You're just a number - the universities have no idea what school you went to, what paper your parents take daily, or where you grew up, etc etc.

There were some exceptions to the anonymity bit where certain courses e.g. Teacher Training (BEd) would have an interview element because it was judged that there was an element of vocation to the course. Though, that is all gone now - it's all done anonymously.

So, how does the system differ here?

ooooh, Bastille Day on Thursday. 😀

They universities choose not ucas, the irish system sounds very good.

Problem pointed out with the report was that 'similar average grades' didn't take into account number of A/AS/whatever they're called now-levels done or the subjects, just the average points number. I think the points can be from different numbers of A/AS levels i.e. 3 A* full A level or 8 Bs at AS might have the same point score. (Would need more info to judge if that was correct).

Secondly, anecdotes from reports of the study suggest that subjects chosen count for a lot - traditional subjects more likely than non-traditional to get in. But comp schools often offer non-traditional as they are likely to get better overall results for all pupils (which is important for the school in their league tables etc). Balancing the overall results of the school against the needs of the top achievers is difficult.

Thirdly, training for Oxbridge interviews, tests, application etc and setting expectations of kids seems to be v important too - lots of comps offer no help with any of this, some seem to actively discourage kids from applying, some kids from that background are put off by the perceived poshness etc; conversely private schools coach, train, offer extra hours of teaching, encourage lots of applications as they are judged on oxbridge acceptance rates rather than i.e. government league tables etc.

As far as I can see, it mostly comes down to:

There probably is a small amount of 'old boy' stuff but not that much, the best private schools have the facilities, money, small class sizes, knowledge to get a good proportion of their pupils a) the best grades which are needed to get an interview, and b) encourage them to apply and practice interviews etc. Until the state sector can match that, there is always going to be a bias against it in admission rates.

The Irish system looks like it gets rid of one probably smallish aspect (who you know, old boys etc) but wouldn't help bright kids in bad schools to a) get the grades and b) set their expectations higher, which I suspect is by far the larger problem.

Disclosure - I went from an average northern comp to Oxford. Moderate help available (1 practice interview I think and someone read the application cover letter), and there was a trip to Ox/Cam to see what the unis were like, I think supported by ox/cam outreach programs. Did a little outreach work while I was there, would still be doing it if I wasn't abroad.

My son had the opportunity to go to Oxford. Went to visit, and came back with a resounding "no way". Much as I tried to persuade him otherwise he was absolute in his opinion that he found it extremely alien and he would be a fish out of water being Comprehensive educated.
As a matter of interest I was in a position to educate him privately, but we were advised that we were better off to stick with our local comprehensive unless he was particularly sports minded, as that was the only area in which any of the local public schools out shone the local state school. It transpired that that advice was correct, as its difficult to see how privately acquired straight A+ grades would have been bettered by the state ones.

Anecdotal I know, but it does rather emphasise the inaccuracy in this statement.

There probably is a small amount of 'old boy' stuff but not that much

My son is not the only person I've heard say such a thing and refused the opportunity for this reason.

Berm - but that has nothing to do with 'old boy'/'old school tie' stuff, which is when someone from the 'right' school, having a) applied, b) been predicted the required grades, and c) been interviewed, is given the place instead of a state school applicant with the same grades (i.e A+ grades from private school were judged to be better than those from a comp). Your sons case seems to be that he was put off by the perceived 'poshness' I guess - did he mention what was alien about it? I guess it depends who you meet/are shown round by, what course you are looking at, and which college you visit. I visited a redbrick one i.e. not one of the centre of town ancient ones, was looking at engineering so we got shown round the engineering department, had an example lecture and lab i.e. just the same as at every other uni! I guess if you're looking at english, sitting in a professors posh office with leather chairs, tweed, booklined walls etc having to discuss one on one the merits of a writer or book is pretty different to the comp school experience. And fair play to him anyway, if he got the best A grades at comp school and knew he didn't want to go to Oxford, nowt wrong with that! Just interested what it is that puts people off, and if that's something that could be or is even worth changing?

went to Oxford, though brain has subsequently turned to mush a bit cf high rollers thread. loved it cos of the rigorous course, beauty of the place and studied with some really good creative people. I was at one of the older but still v. meritocratic colleges. I would go back again.

Intake is definitely, definitely weighted unfairly in favour of public schools but it's a more complex thing than is commonly made out. Beyond that, you couldn't really tell who'd been to state school and who'd been to private school. Pretty much a melting pot. The bigger division was between the "hearty" sporty laddish types and their opposites; between northerners and southerners; that kind of thing. School sort of transcended this. Yeah there were cliques who'd known each other from before but nothing crazy.

I went to comp school but none of my friends did (didn't really notice). All of my friends from school went to other unis. I visited them all, different vibe, not better, not worse, just different.

My son is not the only person I've heard say such a thing and refused the opportunity for this reason.

Around 20 years ago MrsMM also earned herself the chance to attend Oxford. Made her family, especially her dad, very, very proud...
She was not there long - hated every minute of it - she recalls quite vividly the look on her fellow diners faces the first time they sat to dine together - conversation went, as it does on first meetings, who are you? where are your from? what do mummy and daddy do...? etc. All went well until she got to the 'dad's a welder in a tractor factory and mum works in the canteen at British Gas....' says she's never felt so much a fish out of water...

says she's never felt so much a fish out of water...

But that's only how she felt, not necessarily how the others at the table actually looked at her? All in the mind, etc.? I didn't think it was dominated by any one class, but if I had to pick one I would say "middle" (wide middle). Maybe it's changed, or she accidentally showed up to the hunting society's annual dinner or something. But you get ppl like that anywhere (and far, far more at Bristol/Durham/Edinburgh and particularly, particularly St Andrew's).

It was actually an Access scheme that first got me to consider applying now that I come to think of it.

Très bonne fête nationale à tous !