I bought a second hand car last week (Audi A6 Avant), it looked great and on the short test drive i didn't pic up on any faults. The dealer said what a good car it was, full dealer service history etc and didn't mention any problems.
I took it on a long run to visit relatives at the weekend and noticed that when i pulled away the automatic gearbox was a bit juddery and the satnav kept saying i was in lincoln (i was travelling from sheffield to brighton).
To put my mind at rest! I put it into Audi for a once over, to cut a long story a bit shorter it needs £1500 plus work doing on it incl a major gearbox repair and new satnav ariel.
So where do i stand, the warranty is bobbins, i'm only covered in the event of an actual breakdown and only up to £200. I've been on the CAB website and a Sale of Goods Act clause that may be appropriate is that the car was not of "satisfactory quality".
Does this seem applicable for my case?
Any advice appreciated.
I phoned the dealer yesterday but the guy who did my sale is off until monday.
ta
Simon
Forget about the guy who did the sale, speak to the manager & tell him you need the car repaired ASAP
Get paperwork from them them confirming what has been done
Surely swisstony knows all there is to know about second hand cars?
im sure that as you have only had it a wek you are entitiled to take it back to the dealer and get your money back as its not of satifactory quality!!
or i could be talking bobbins?
As you bought from a dealer you will have quite a lot of protection, but couldn't say exactly what. They certainly can't just walk away from you without sorting it.
I can't believe that you would not be coverd for lengthy expensive repairs like that, seems a bit odd to me.. but I know nowt about 2nd hand cars .. sorry not helping am I!!!
Buying a secondhand car is a lot like making love to a beautiful woman...
Ha, i didn't even think about my username, unfortunatly i don't know much about cars, women on the other hand!
The guy who did my sale is one of the partners so i'd rather go to him, plus Audi are posting a full quote out o me so i'll have that by monday. It wasn't like a main dealer but a well established 'car lot'.
It may sound funny but i'd rather not have my money back, it took me ages to find one with the right spec and milage etc, do i have a choice of repair or refund?
ta
Too much to go into here, but in a nutshell you have rights as a consumer under the Sale of Goods Act. Phone consumer direct who will be able to advise you of your legal rights - http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/
[url= http://www.berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/consumers/fact-sheets/page38311.html ]Guidence on sale of goods act[/url]
I would say return the car and insist on your money back. Your choice of repair or refund
Reject the car- there should be a template online available for the letter. Drop the car off at the dealers and dont take any fobbing off. If Audi charged you for the diagnostics I would also expect that to be reimbursed. They have to give you a refund as the above are major problems and would have been apparent to them (Unless they had the car delivered on a low loader and just polished the car rather than checking what they bought....b*llocks). All the best. Its not your problem, theirs. What sort of dealer was it? Car Supermarket? Large unfranchised etc? Also- if they say its a credit note or they have to be given a chance to rectify (botch)- say no way.
Once you accept back a repair- they'd feel like you are keeping the car come hell or high water so lots of unreturned calls etc for the future. Full refund and go somewhere else.
Right, just been onto Consumer Direct and apparently i'm on thin ice.
In their opinion the issues could all be put down to 'wear and tear' and as such are not considered as faults.
She said the satnav and the other couple of things would not be covered unless i had it in writing that all these things worked, which i don't. As for the gearbox, again this would not be covered due the wear and tear nature of the issue even though it must of been worn at the time of purchase. My best bet is to try to negociate with the dealer for a "contribution" towards the cost of the repair.
Not the answers i was hoping for!
You actually have quite a lot of rights. Good information and links [url= http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/faq.htm?id=43 ]here[/url]
Swisstony, roughly when did you notice the gearbox fault timewise and rough mileage?
Seriously. I think you have more than a leg to stand on- please watch this newly created thread:
http://www.pistonheads.com/xforums/topic.asp?h=0&f=23&t=699194&mid=70159&nmt=Faulty/big%20bill%20potential%20-2ndcar%20bought%20from%20dealer%20help!
Was the car sold with warranty?
Any warranty would cover driveline as part of minimum cover which would therefore cover the gearbox.
The satnav etc, well not so sure on that. Probably down to the dealers own principles. I wouldnt question it tbh. I would have it fixed immediately. There can be no justification of wear & tear so quickly.
How did you buy it? Finance etc? If you are on a regulated agreement (Which a private buyer of that amount would) you also have extra rights.
Did you pay the deposit by credit card? If so, get on to your credit card company, they have an element of liability on all purchases over £100.
ta hora, i'll get onto there, i noticed after a long run, 250 miles max, i didn't notice it on the short test drive.
I bought the car with cash unfortunatly and the warranty only covers in the event of a breakdown upto a max of £200.
I wouldn't start worrying unless the dealer won't help out. I am sure they will - most dealers will take a problem like that seriously. What milage is it anyway?
I once bought a car that needed a full top half engine rebuild about 3 months after buying it second-hand (Citroen - I should have known better). They did it and threw in a set of alloys and free RAC cover for a year on top as additional compensation for the hassle they had put me through.
The "warrenty" they offer is nothing to do with your rights under the sale of goods act
Crucial bits
• Wherever goods are bought they must "conform to contract". This means they must be as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality (i.e. not inherently faulty at the time of sale).• Goods are of satisfactory quality if they reach the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking into account the price and any description.
Going to be honest, hes still a dealer selling you a car at the end of the day. Ones to avoid are 'sold as seen' or sold as 'trade car'. With those the dealer can argue theres no mechanical comeback. The £200 warranty is a crock of. I also would take more advice than with who you spoke to earlier. Another/second opinion.
i thought that there was a time period in which you were fully entitled to return a car. satnav is annoying but poss not that important, a faulty gearbox (if that is the case), imho, is goods not of a saleable quality and unfit for purpose.
as with hora, take it straight back and ask for a refund. leave it any longer and you will have to start paying for independent reports to prove there is a fault.
As for the satnav - would a second-hand aerial be that expensive anyway?
Is there not some sort of EU thing that puts the responsibility with the dealer to prove that any faults with the car within 6 months were not there when bought?
I recently bought second hand and was told this buy several folks.
I'll have a dig
In fact CaptainMainwarings post has a link to it,
This section
"during the first six months:
The consumer returns the goods in the first six months from the date of sale and requests a repair or replacement or a partial refund. In that case, the consumer does not have to prove the goods were faulty at the time of sale. It is assumed that they were. If the retailer does not agree, it is for the retailer to prove that the goods were satisfactory at the time of sale. This comes from Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002, derived from EU Directive 1999/44/EU which became Clauses 48A to 48F inclusive of the Sale of Goods act in April 2003"
thanks all, well it looks like i do have some hope but it all depends on how amicable the dealer wants to be. I'm guessing he also knows the law pretty well and more to the point, the loopholes!
i'll keep you posted.
I'm guessing he also knows the law pretty well and more to the point, the loopholes!
How many times will he have been firm- told the customers what the law is when in reality its something else and they've accepted his word?
The retailers duties under the sale of goods act are pretty onerous and many retailers try to wriggle out of them. Stick to your guns. A major fault like that means you are entitled to return the vehicle or have it repaired at their cost ( assuming you paid full price and so on)
Don't worry, i'm going in fully tooled up with the Act printed out, various other relevant bits plus the quote from Audi. My prefered option will be to have it repaired but if they mess me about i'll go for the refund.
Oh and i'll let him know i don't mind at all spending the next couple of weeks camped outside with a very large 'informative' placard.
fingers crossed
ta all
Don't go in all bolshy and aggressive - they would be so much less likely to want to help, be prepared to negotiate or listen to you.
Be firm but fair, set out what you think they should do and listen. Put things in writing and follow-up the meeting with notes (and copy them in).
Then, if you get nowhere, go in harder.
I had a ding dong with Arnold Clarke. The General/Sales Manager thought he would use the force of his personality to make me back down infront of his sales staff. At no point was I threatening, loud or confrontational. He was all three and condescending in addition to treating me like I was a punter/industry outside and he had been doing me a favour upto that point. Just be like the ****in-Duracel Bunny and when he clocks that he'll collapse and do whatever you want. Persistence. In my case the chap realised we were going to become relatives if he carried on. Oh, then on the back of persistence there is Trading standards. BTW, done a mileage-check yet? Contacted the last name on the V5? Look them up on google, call their fleet manager and ask them if they could kindly confirm the mileage the car left his/her posession on. Not a fleet etc? Write to them etc etc. Its another thing but at the end of the day if you can nail him on more than one point the ****er will give in. dot the i's....
I work in the industry, for a manuafacturer, running the customer relations dept, so this is an area I deal with daily.
How old is the car and how may miles has it covered?
The sale of goods act is aimed principaly at the sale of NEW goods. If it is used goods then the test of reasonableness would be used in court for the condition of the vehcile based on the above. ie is it reasonable that at this age and mileage these parts are worn to this extent.
Despite what some might say the magic sale of goods act isn't as clear cut as it would seem.
Sorry to say (and I don't often agree with them) but I think the advice from consumer direct is correct.
Michaelbowden - why do you not often agree with the government body that is set up specifically to advise on consumer law?
Did you see this reply:
It really depends on how old and how much you paid as to how much comeback you have. If it was a £9000 retail priced 4 year old car with 50k then there is no wiggle room. If it was a 7 year old 120k example for £4000 then it is not so clear cut.
Is this the Multitronic box and a pre-2006 one? In which case they are, frankly, hopeless and always judder and sometimes feel as if they are going to stall the car once they have a few miles on them. Lots fail before 80k. Even if you fix them they're not much better although you can get them replaced with the later design which is better. Depending on how bad it is, and how many miles it has done, it might just be typical of the breed in which case the dealer might argue that it hasn't failed just merely not as good as a new one. On the other hand if it is not drivable then I think you have a pretty good argument.
I did see that, the car is a 2004 and has done 86,000 and i payed close to 6K all said and done. This was the angle that consumer direct took, in that it was a higher than normal milage and was bought for a reasonable amount so i'm in wear and tear teritory.
To compound matters, yes it is the multitronic one so that doesn't sound good even if it's repaired, i'm thinking i'll go for my money back and start looking again!
How did you get on?
Aye. Money back. Let us know how you get on 🙂
Well, i went in and stated my point of view but just got the brick wall of 'it's wear and tear, what do you expect from a second hand car'?
This went on for 10 mins or so but i was getting nowhere so pulled out the Sale of goods act gubbins i'd printed off and started quoting bits too him. He still wasn't budging and i asked him outright if he was prepared to do anything and he said no.
I started to pack my stuff up and he said what would i do now and i told a little white lie in that i'd been onto consumer direct and they'd said i had a very strong case and they would back me if i needed to take the matter further, he then got a bit shirty and tried to frighten me off and said his solicitor would advise him to let me get on with it and i wouldn't win and would probably end up with a hefty court cost bill. I then said i had every faith in the legal system and felt the law would be on my side and i was quite happy to go all the way.
I knew he was crumbling by this time and after a bit more 'debate' he said what he wanted to do was to tell me to **** off and let me get on with it but he couldn't be arsed with the hassle so gave me a full refund, including the tax i'd put on it.
I'm happy i got out unscathed but i've still got to find another car!
so just to say a big thanks to all who gave me great advice, it really made a massive that he knew i knew my rights, even if i did over egg them ab it!
cheers
well done
that's a result....
11/10
Cracking result.
Im guessing here but I bet he knew there was a problem when he sold the car to you and that was praying on his mind (NOT conscience) and he was worried just how much a Solicitor would cost him to in fees...
What are you after/looking for next?
Just off to look at buying a 2nd hand car
< shudders >
cheers, yeh well one of his main arguments was that it was a common fault on A6's ( i'd since found this to be true)and the last 3 he'd sold plus another he had on the forecourt where exactly the same and no one else had complained, but i said if he'd made me aware of this it would of been another matter but as he hadn't....
I don't know i've spent all morning on autotrader and ebay but nothing stands out at the mo, it's put me off audi's a bit though.
My current shortlist is a BMW 525/530D tourer, a Volvo V70, Saab 93/95 or i'm trying to resist but i keep coming back to a Ford Mondeo!
Out of the above (no offence to owners)- I'd go with a Beemer 5series. The Saab (I test drove a 93 saloon, a 93 estate-thingy and a 53 plate 95 estate)- they just felt vague/lower quality. Im thinking along the lines that you looked at Audi you see.
Buy from a trader again- but make sure they come with a 12month warranty- if a trader wont offer this (or they try and sell you an aftermarket one)- it says to me that they are two-bit operations or know something about the car they are selling and dont want a comeback..
Edit: (The above isnt supposed to read as condescending at all).
You know....you wouldnt go too far wrong if you went for a Legacy or Outback estate.
Just read the other posts. Excellent result.
Can this just be used to highlight that not all Main dealers are conning shysters. Back St garages are just as bad, if not worse. At least with a main dealer you can complain to a customer services rep if a sales manager states "I would rather tell you to eff off!!" Thats shocking.
Oh and as said before, wherever you buy, make sure you get a major mechanical & Driveline warranty minimum. Hell you can buy them from RAC & AA
The BMW is my prefered choice at the mo, there don't seem to be many subaru's around, there is a legacy which is local but it's a petrol one.
I don't think i've ever had more than a 3 month warranty on any of my cars, do dealers give 12 months on cars for this sort of money?
Yes. The smaller they are the less so. You'd think they are doing that to save themselves hassle/money yet they still want 'book' value for the sodding cars! 12month warranty should be a min. IMO- any less then it says to me that they are a real shoe-string operation or they know something untoward/hidden about the car. In that case, why are you paying a premium over a private sale?!!
You pay the premium over a private sale for peace of mind!?!
although only 30mpg combined 🙁
Although the 2.5 engine gets 34mpg combined
http://search.autotrader.co.uk/es-uk/www/cars/SUBARU+LEGACY/Ne-2-4-5-6-7-8-27-44-49-53-61-64-67-103-133-146-236,N-41-55-112-144-240-4294965183-4294966891/advert.action?R=200922335136709&distance=38&postcode=M32+0DQ&channel=CARS&make=SUBARU&model=LEGACY&min_pr=&max_pr=&max_mileage=60000&vehicleYearOfManufacture=2005&vehicleRegLetter=05
Mind you its not everyones cup of tea. I respect the Mondeo- why not a flashy estate 05/06 Ghia in dark grey or black?
yeh i like them but i'd hold out for a diesel
i keep coming back to the mondeo's, they tick all the boxes but i can't help thinking that every time i looked out of the window i'd be dissapointed?
Because you want a shiny fascia and kudos with your neighbours?
Bet Audi's etc are circa £500 to service as well.
It hasn't got anything to do with neighbours or shiny things it's just that they seem really dull. On the one hand i used to think if you can't think further than a ford you must be a bit sad but now i'm coming round to the idea that they are a sensible option and paying a premium for a badge is sadder, all i really want is a good realiable family estate. Also it's not going to be my car, it's will be my wife's car and will be used for lugging kids and bikes about, i drive an Alfa GTV when i'm not riding which is alot more fun.
The search continues but at the moment i've had enough of cars so i'm going to ride home, swap bikes and get out for a 'proper' ride.
swisstony, Alfa GTV? What year/mileage? Bar the electrics- have you hand any mechanical probs? I know bushings etc go - but the main bits?