[Closed] Legal advice. Dismissed for dependent care?

Go an see CAB.

You may have grounds for unfair dismissal, but don't hold me to this.

Seek legal advice.

Were you in a union? 😀

On the surface it would seem they have attempted to go thru the right channels so it might be difficult. You need real advice on this - CAB or local law centre.

there is some legal stuff about entitlements to carers leave. It appears to rest on a reasonableness test. fixed time limits are not reasonable[i] [b]in my opinion[/b][/i] It would also depend to a great eextent on your role in the workplace IE can you be easily replaced / your work covered.
http://www.tuc.org.uk/tuc/rights_timeoff.cfm#Time_off_for_dependants

Wouldnt childcare have been an easier option than 7 days off when you already knew it was going to be an issue (Past warnings).

Dont wish you to lose your job over it, but at what point will you 'make other arrangements' that dont impact on your company

FWIW I've taken time off - unpaid - when mrs xiphon's been very ill.

Adding together the two issues - your time off sick for you and the time you took of as carers leave looks wrong to me.

The visit to your gran was not carers leave however unless she was dependent on you. I doubt the disciplinary for that was unreasonable.

You are entitled to 13weeks unpaid leave if you have a child under 5 (under 18 if disabled). If you invoke this right for all the instances where you were looking after your child you may be able to justify a number of the absences, which in effect will reduce the overall absence they can complain about.

However, there is a strict process for requesting this unpaid leave therefore I suspect you may struggle to do it retrospectively.

With regard to seeing your sick Gran and looking after your wife who has flu, you're on thin ice I'm afraid. I would have expected my staff to cover this with holiday.

good luck mate hope you get sorted.

i got a written warning for taking two days emergency carers leave when my wifes appendix burst a few days after childbirth and i had the newborn a one year old and a 8 and 9 year old to look after at the time . apparently my situation wasnt deemed to be good enough and i should have called my parents ;-(

this was the first time i had taken off since getting my certificate of thanks for not taking a day off for the last 12 months four months previously. (investors in people (this is the award they won last year) my ar5e )

Just to mention. We have arrangement for child care if something happened (mrs leosxdh mother). But she was on holiday in the states at the time and there was no other option for me to be the legal carer

as far as I am aware you cannot be given written warnings for being ill - it is not an offence being ill - you should have sought advice then
As for unpaid leave re children I am fairly sure you have an entitlement to this till age 5 - will check law stuff when I get home- they should/could have just refused to pay you. Not sure there is any case law on this yet re whether they can sack you
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Parents/Moneyandworkentitlements/WorkAndFamilies/Parentalleaveandflexibleworking/DG_10029416
here you go

See CAB

poisonspider - Member

You are entitled to 13weeks unpaid leave if you have a child under 5 (under 18 if disabled).

Reference? I don't believe it is absolute right nor is there any time limit. You might have something in your contract that gives you greater than the legal rights

Check the TUC link I gave above

Edit - just looked at junkyards link - parental leave and carers leave are not the same thing hence theconfusion - I was looking at carers leave

Sounds to me like they were a bit peeved with your past record, Gran & Illness which they gave you the warning for. Now you have had a legitimate situation where they could have cut you some slack there isnt any available to you.

A lot of companies are doing this atm. Its much cheaper to get rid of someone for a legitimate reason that the employee has handed to them on a plate, than it is to go through any redundancy process.

Not sure about the ins and outs of the 13wks unpaid leave thing so hope that this may give you something to fire back at them.

You being sick is very very different to a 3rd party being sick.

Sick Gran - that's holiday, I'm afraid (although it won't feel like a holiday!)

Sick dependant - again, either holiday (perhaps agree short-notice annual leave - we call it 'emergency holiday' ).

Fortunately my Boss' wife also has gluten intolerance... so knows when they get ill, they *really* get ill. I have taken unpaid leave to look after her, by prior agreement.

Look on the bright side - now you're unemployed, there's plenty of time to go riding!

(Every cloud has a silver lining and all that....)

It's called [url= http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Parents/Moneyandworkentitlements/WorkAndFamilies/Parentalleaveandflexibleworking/DG_10029416 ]Parental Leave[/url] and it's a legal right for all parents with children under the age of 5 (or 18 if disabled). You do need to have a year's continuous service at your place of work.

There are some restrictions around claiming it though. It's unpaid, and you must take a whole working week at a time. And I think give at least a months notice.

Just as a matter of interest, how long were you off work for your illness and for your gran?

If there's a genuine emergency and you need to take time off at short notice:

* your employer may let you take emergency leave
* you may have the right to take time off to arrange for care

All employees have a right to take a reasonable amount of unpaid time off to deal with certain emergencies involving people they care for. This is known as time off for dependants, and applies regardless of how long you have been working for your employer or whether you have child or adult care responsibilities.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Parents/Moneyandworkentitlements/WorkAndFamilies/Parentalleaveandflexibleworking/DG_10029416

You are allowed 'reasonable' time off to deal with the emergency and make any arrangements that are needed. There's no set amount of time allowed to deal with an unexpected event involving a dependant - it will vary depending on what the event is but for most cases one or two days should be sufficient to deal with the problem.

[b]For example, if your child falls ill you can take enough time off to deal with their initial needs, such as taking them to the doctor and arranging for their care. However, you will need to make other arrangements if you want to stay off work longer to care for them yourself.[/b]

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/Timeoffandholidays/DG_10026555

Perhaps that Parental Leave thing is to do with kids having hospital operations / long term illness?

You can't really plan your child to be sick in one month...

Parental leave and dependants leave are not the same thing - two different bits of regulations - see the links above

There's two different provisions being talked about here

parental leave - which is a longer term issue, and has to be planned in advance and taken in one week blocks

and emergency leave for dependent care, which can only be used to get over an unexpected emergency, such as illness or the breakdown in normal care plans - this would be the one for this case, and the only restriction on amount of time is that its "reasonable" - I'd say that 5 days unpaid, last occasion a year ago, due to illness when alternative care was unavailable due to holiday and normally would have been in place would not be unreasonable, and that your employer is on VERY dodgy ground.

I believe the rule in a case of dismissal for emergency leave is that its automatically unfair unless the employer can justify it - so the onus of proof is on them to show your use was unreasonable.

Fairly good chance of winning this one I reckon mate! Get the tribunal application written out!

How the days add up.

3 days for grandmother
4 days for the pregnancy complications
4 days sick in October (all at 1 time)
5 days looking after my son (all at 1 time)

That is over the last 12 months and was with the company for over 3 and half years.

I would be a lot less optimistic than Zulu on this. I think it would be hard to justify 5 days as reasonable - given that the guidance suggests

There's no set amount of time allowed to deal with an unexpected event involving a dependant - it will vary depending on what the event is but for[b] most cases one or two days[/b] should be sufficient to deal with the problem.

For example, if your child falls ill you can take enough time off to deal with their initial needs, such as taking them to the doctor and arranging for their care.[b] However, you will need to make other arrangements if you want to stay off work longer to care for them yourself[/b].

Certainly well worth looking into and getting real advice tho. When I was a union rep I would have fought it but wouldn't have been confident of winning

Zulu's post sounds good to me

Why does law always seem to come down to what one man/woman deems is reasonable?

Did you use up some of your holiday quota for any of the periods off work ? Some of them would fall into that camp IMO and I can see an employer coming to the conclusion that you were a PITA if you took them as days off outside of your holiday allowance.

Sorry - but that's how it looks (to me).

Lawyer time.

Find a proper emplyment lawyer and get proper advice. This is technical and will depend on a whole host of facts and factors.

Helpful though the people here are, you need the advice of an expert.

Good luck.

.

TJ - fact remains that the rule is that its [b]automatically[/b] unfair dismissal, since he was dismissed for taking emergency leave - its for the employer to defend themselves in court and say their actions were reasonable, in this case the burden of proof is entirely upon the employer... and the reasonableness would have to be looked at taking into account his record over 3.5 years of service, and all the relevant circumstances, what's reasonable for one employee might not be reasonable for another... I wonder if the employer gave him the option of using holiday after the first day's emergency leave, was the employer being reasonable in the way they treated him? big complex questions.

a mercenary person would point out that thats a fairly good position to be in, and that the likely advice from the employers solicitor would be to settle out of court, since taking it to court will be both expensive and risky!

OMITN + 1

Why does law always seem to come down to what one man/woman deems is reasonable?

* your employer [b]may[/b] let you take emergency leave
* you [b]may[/b] have the right to take time off to arrange for care

[b]I believe[/b] the rule in a case of dismissal for emergency leave is that its automatically unfair unless the employer can justify it - so the onus of proof is on them to show your use was unreasonable.

Get a lawyer. IMH(and unqualified)O you're on thin ice

Did you use up some of your holiday quota for any of the periods off work ? Some of them would fall into that camp IMO and I can see an employer coming to the conclusion that you were a PITA if you took them as days off outside of your holiday allowance.

Sorry - but that's how it looks (to me).

me too, time off for wife and time off for gran are annual leave. Your record does look problematic to me. Sorry if that sounds hash but I got no time off outside leave to look after my wifes complications in pregnancy or dying grandmother..

@TJ

If you read the link you posted it says:

Parental leave might be taken simply to enable you to spend more time with your young child.

It does not have to be emergency cover.

Right now I'm pleased I work for a decent company, seems like most people on here are treated like poo by their employer. 🙁

You need a professional - there are too many 'reasonables' and 'mays' in the guidance to have a clear idea of where you stand.

Basicly its a tough world out there, your comapny have added up the days off in lost work and sacked you, a lot cheaper for them than redundancy, its going to happen a lot more frequently now as well as companies look to shrink.

Poison spider - but parental leave I think must be agreed with the employer and notice given. Having to do childcare because the usual carer is unavailable is emergency leave / carers leave. The question is is 5 days emergency leave "reasonable".

two different things

This needs expert advice tho as its a complex and technical case not clear cut at all

I'm surprised you can still remember the way to the office.

I would suggest some of this depends on how and when you informed them of your intention to take the short notice time off. If you were clear about how long you wanted off and they agreed to it then you'll have a much stronger case. If they made no protestations at the time you may have a reasonable argument that you assume their consent to the leave.

What is reasonable may also depend on your job role. E.g. IMHO it would not be reasonable for a school teacher to take the same short notice emergency leave (repeatedly disrupting his/her class' education) as telesales operator.

But you should be aware that any employee who gets to the "written warning stage" is usually no longer welcome in the organisation and should have been looking for another job anyway!

Apologies if i'm barking up the wrong tree, but are there any other issues at work apart from the days off?

Also what was the original final written warning for, presumably other spells of sickness which you haven't mentioned.

I spent some time as a full time union official representing discipline cases and there seems to be more to this than has been explained

What is your attendance record like for the otehr 2.5 years?

To tell the truth the attendance record was not great for the 2 and half as had a virual infection and that was the reason I was put on the final written warning. But finding out I was going to be dad my life change and became more responsible so made more effort to go to work and get assistance when at work so I did not need to be off. As stated the reason for being dismissed was not due to sickness which the warning was issued for but was for the dependent care is that right?

It took fatherhood for you to realise slacking at work was not a good idea?

Geez....

a mercenary person would point out that thats a fairly good position to be in

Not when your next potential employer asks why you left your last role...

Ahhh, OK. In the context of being a 'bad boy' for 2.5 years and then, to all intents and purposes (from your employers perspective), carrying on in the same vein for another 18 months after a written warning, It shouldn't have come as a great surprise.

Sorry if that sounds a bit harsh but they won't neccesarily care how you conveniently compartmentalise time off in this or that category. You're taking time away that you're paid to be there for them.

You might have a claim under some convoluted combination of 'entitlement' but my question would be: 'Why do you think your (ex) employer should foot the bill for your chaotic personal affairs/bad luck/inability to meet your half of the employer/employee bargain?'

Not trying to be horrible to you, it's a genuine question. What would you say if they came to you and suggested they skip paying you this month as they'd had some bad luck as a debtor had folded or they'd lost an order they were counting on?

It was not slacking in any way. It was the reason that I had a new family to support and not my self was the reason I made the best effort I could.