[Closed] Leg strength

Do cyclists squat?

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Yip get some squats and deadlifts done.

Goblet squats are a personal favourite of mine.

If only to freak out other people at the gym...

I like goblet squats, I do them with 23kg but I think a heavier kettlebell with a normal squat might be better.. dunno.. I think I could do more. Last time I was in a hotel gym there were 25kg dumbbells and I did squats with one in each hand. Easy compared to the goblet squats.

I could probably persuade my kids to let me carry both of them upstairs repeatedly, they love that. 48kg between them 🙂

Ride singlespeed in an inappropriately high gear; I did 12 x .5k climbs on Sunday, this weekend I'll aim for 15. After that I'll be dropping the ratio for more of a speedy climb instead of grim gurning.

I also do lots of box jumps, squat jumps & pistol squats in the week.

I've spent the last couple of months doing squats and deadlifts twice a week + some low stroke rate rowing on the Concept 2. It seems to have made a big difference to my leg power on the mountain bike.

You do these deadlifts in a gym? Most hotel places don't seem to have suitable gear.

Not many hotels have decent free weights, I use the local sports centre gym for mine.
You can try bodyweight exercises. One legged squats are pretty effective I've found.

Why 40s sprints? What are you training for?

Friel suggested a 10s sprint (I think), 5 x 5 of those has me on the floor.

40s because that's how big the nearest quiet hill is 🙂

How much rest in your 5x5s?

Friel suggested a 10s sprint (I think), 5 x 5 of those has me on the floor.

I've suffered the grimness of tabata running many times; tried it once on a spinning bike and couldn't do the 2nd sprint :/

Fartlek

I would say your body is used to operating at a constant pace but not so good at the short intense bursts. Fartlek will help with that, we sued to train like that when I was playing reasonable level sport. Lots of weights will give you power (good) but you need to improve your fast twitch muscle too and your bodies ability to sustain sharp bursts.

Do cyclists squat?

Hoy not even trying there. IIRC he had a 250kg max.

If you're short on kit, pistols are good. If they're too easy, do them with a couple of dbs or kettlebells. Aussie track team used one leg squats quite extensively I think.

I used to do the old school favourite of 20 rep squats done in rep/pause style. Set length (2 minutes or thereabouts) works out at a good time to help with hill sprint efforts. If you can work up to something like BW x 1.5 for 20 reps, you will laugh in the face of a short hill sprint.

Googled pistol squats - they look like a fantastic hotel room exercise. Although adding 50% of my bodyweight in a hotel room won't be easy 🙂

Leg strength is aided or supported by core exercises......abs and lower back so you need to add these in.

Leg strength

Squats with a barbell or dumbbells by the side
Lunges, walking or stationary
Leg Press...machine
Calf Extensions.....
ab exercises....crunches, birddog, plank, google ab exercises
hip flexibity exercises

Box jumps as above
Jumping from a standstill to a point
squat and the jump up
burpess

all of these with body weight

then add
hill climb intervals
fartlek
intervals 20 secs flat out and then 20 secs rest

as with all weights form over weight, do the exercise correctly so no injuries

Last summer I did a few weeks of force intervals (low cadence, high gear) along with starting a core strength regime (from Tom Danielson's Core Advantage book). I found myself able to push a couple of gears harder as well as being able to spend longer before shifting down. Felt pretty awesome on the hills. Strava says I was getting faster.

My entrirely subjective feeling is that the core exercises had more effect than the force intervals - I could just feel more of my body going into each pedal stroke.

The exercises in the book I mentioned are designed to be hotel-room-friendly (no equipment required) and are cycling specific so if you don't already have some kind of core routine then it might be worth a look.

According to Dan John (a personal favourite coach), strength standards are:

For Men:
Push
Expected = Bodyweight bench press
Game-changer = Bodyweight bench press for 15 reps
Pull
Expected = 5 pullups
Game-changer = 15 pullups
Hinge
Expected = Bodyweight to 150% bodyweight deadlift
Game-changer = Double-bodyweight deadlift
Squat
[b]Expected = Bodyweight squat
Game-changer = Bodyweight squat for 15 reps[/b]
Loaded Carry
Expected = Farmer walk with total bodyweight (half per hand)
Game-changer =Bodyweight per hand
Getup
One left and right, done with a half-filled cup of water

http://danjohn.net/2013/04/strength-standards-sleepless-in-seattle/

I can manage all the expected targets.

Hmm, good set of goals there ^^^.

Just looking at that, I am nearly at expected for the press, at expected for back squat, but ahead on dead lift and pull ups (edging for game changers on both as it happens).

I love Crossfit.

My bench press is ****ing rubbish! Just hitting "expected".

My current 2015 targets are bodyweight overhead squats and 2xBW Deadlift (can do 1.5 for reps at the moment).

I don't have heavy enough dumbbells for the farmers walk, although last time I was in a gym which did have, I could do 1/2 BW in each hand for 30m.

My current 2015 targets are bodyweight overhead squats and 2xBW Deadlift (can do 1.5 for reps at the moment).

What's your current max on OH squat?

sorry not convinced by any of that or some of the website................

the standards make some assumptions, factors of age and previous injuries and so on not to mention correct form and technique

ever seen someone 'inch worm' a deadlift? yes they are hitting the standard but at what cost.

Could Froome Contador/Wiggo meet those standards? There is something to be address relating sports specific functionality.

Could Froome Contador/Wiggo meet those standards?

No, but I reckon Hoy could (or could have).

Horses for courses.

What's your current max on OH squat?

3x60kg (arse to grass) but it's limited as much by stability as actual glute strength at the moment.

sorry not convinced by any of that or some of the website................

fair enough. Dan John is very good though, I've read a lot of his books, seen his DVDs and he is a very good coach.

Most of his work is with collegiate athletes rather than any old bloke off the street (he is an athletics coach at a Uni in Utah and retired competitive Olympic Lifter / discuss thrower). However, I'm 44, not an athlete in any real sense of the word, and can meet all the 'expected' so they're not that OTT.

bodyweight overhead squats and 2xBW Deadlift

Googled pistol squats - they look like a fantastic hotel room exercise. Although adding 50% of my bodyweight in a hotel room won't be easy

It'll be a while til you can add any weight.

Or do them without falling over

Could Froome Contador/Wiggo meet those standards?
No, but I reckon Hoy could

And I should have clarified - I'm talking about XC MTB racing, really. That's what I aspire to. Not mountain marathons, and not track. Although I may want to do more track later in life 🙂

Or do them without falling over

Hey I just did one now to try it out, and didn't fall over. It was hard mind.

but a BW OH squat?

I'm 80kg.

The OH Squat requires much more stability / balance than a normal squat so it's a very different exercise, but a real test of all over strength rather than raw glute / quad strength.

A good pre-cursor to doing any attempts is to load a bar with more than you're going to squat, and dip jump/press it over head, hold it locked out and then slowly walk 5m with the bar in the OH position. That really pre-loads all the muscles and makes OH squats a lot easier.

E.g. I'd do 65/70 overhead walk before trying a set of 60 OH squats.

3x60kg is a fair effort. What's BW? 80kg?

FWIW I got up to 85kg snatch without any coaching but don't really have the time to do olympic training justice. Its just too much skill to learn, whilst keeping the regular strength training going at the same time. I'd pretty much stalled at that weight and would need my technique fixing to go much of any further. And I didn't quite manage BW overhead squat though (~95kg) although I might put that back them back on the routine. I always did the olys first then moved on to overhead squats and some kind of press, followed up by regular back squats. Skill first moving to plain strength last.

TBH I currently find better value in regular (relatively low skill) freeweight lifts with the limited time I have down the gym. If I had double the time I'd love to keep up the olys.

Although I may want to do more track later in life

Start squatting now then, you need to get to 2.5x BW to catch up with Chris Hoy!

I can read/see he is strength throwing coach and I have seen articles from him in the past re Crossfit and Olympic weightlifting, I have no doubt he is a articulate coach good points on body postion especially on kettlebells and squats.

Strength is variable on age and injuries plus other variables especially flexibility..........BW OH squat is a great example.

In the dangerous world of the internet I will give the example of a late 40 yrs male, he could do press up especially elevated easily and amrap massively could no way bench press his body weight due to nerve damage he was about 95kgs anything upto 60 or 70kg again massive reps and okay.

Strength standards are okay but it is horses for courses, sport functionality and lots of cross over in terms of strength for the sport.......throwing is different to cycling..... good discussion though.

Problem is with the squats - don't want to sign up to a gym, don't want to buy (or have room for) my own weights. KBs I have, that's about it.

OH squat is a great exercise for sure, I can't think of a better core exercise. It doesn't test the legs like normal squatting due to all of the other limitations. I've done 10 at 65kg but a 30kg jump is a bit much!
Maybe like mrmonkfinger, I'll start doing them again.

BTW, Dan John is one of the worlds most respected strength training experts (along with Rip and a few others). I wouldn't question him personally.

Hey I just did one now to try it out, and didn't fall over. It was hard mind.

All the way down? I mean deeeep

If so - nice one! But not something I'd engage in without a decent warm-up. i've found it actually put more potential injury type strain on my straight leg than the bent one due to inflexibility.

For some reason I can do more on my left leg than my right, which might not sound strange, but I'm pretty much totally right-sided.

I have been trying to do this a couple of times a week since the turn of the year:

[url= http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/insightzone/features/article/izn20130617-Busting-The-Core-Myth-0 ]Link 1[/url]

And you can progress to this:

[url= http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/insightzone/physical_preparation/planning_for_performance/article/izn20130617-Functional-Trunk-Strength--Advanced-Exercises-0 ]Link 2[/url]

I got into OH Squats via Dan John. He raves about them (and farmer's walks) as being two great 'Dad strength' exercises. He refers to another US coach (college athletics) who has 15 OH BW squats as a bench mark to make the team. Hence I'm seeing if I can achieve that for no other reason than it's a good thing to have a go at.

Dad strength? The kind of strength you develop carrying two kids up stairs?

[i]But not something I'd engage in without a decent warm-up. i've found it actually put more potential injury type strain on my straight leg than the bent one due to inflexibility.[/i]

Time has demonstrated for us, that Man has devised any number of ways to damage and hurt himself. I put it down to some folk being easily bored, combined with a lack of imagination.

Carry on.

Dad strength? The kind of strength you develop carrying two kids up stairs?

Quite possibly. We only have cats so I'm missing out on a whole load of training every night!

How many do you have?

With a combined weight of 9kg, not enough to train with!

If you look up MMA bodyweight conditioning workouts that will give you lots of variations on squats. For example, 150 'normal' squats (hands on head and making sure to get thighs parallel with ground) plus 150 hindu squats every other night. Maybe add in some lunges and jump squats for good measure. You'll definitely feel stronger on the bike IME.

molgrips - Member

40s because that's how big the nearest quiet hill is

How much rest in your 5x5s?

1 per minute for 5 minutes then 5 minutes rest then repeat.

It's nice to know that I'm at the game changer level for all the exercises in that table up there. Or more accurately was there until i ****ed my knee.

[i]For example, 150 'normal' squats (hands on head and making sure to get thighs parallel with ground) plus 150 hindu squats every other night. Maybe add in some lunges and jump squats for good measure.[/i]

Made me think of this:

[url] http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/too-much-exercise-bad-for-you [/url]

Edit:
[i]Or more accurately was there until i **** my knee. [/i]

I refer you to my earlier post.
😐

It's nice to know that I'm at the game changer level for all the exercises in that table up there. Or more accurately was there until i **** my knee.

well that certainly changed the game 🙁

I wonder what the difference is between sprinting up a hill and sprinting on flat, on the bike...

You end up pedalling faster on the flat of course - this presumably helps you adapt to activate your muscles more quickly...

Solo point taken and each to their own on the actual number of reps. I don't know if anyone died prematurely from squats though - maybe walk a bit funny for a couple of days after the first couple of sessions...

I don't know if anyone died prematurely from squats though

There are some great vids of Youtube of people passing out and falling over immediately after a front squat, a few of them falling right into squat stands / weight racks....

well that certainly changed the game

It certainly did. 🙁

I refer you to my earlier post.

My knee injury had bugger all to do with lifting weights. It was a high velocity closed chain hyperextension and twisting injury doing tae kwon do and moving away from someone who I had just kicked in the head.

[i] stick_man - Member

Solo point taken[/i]

It's not personal, so please don't feel offended. I'm not singling anyone out. I'm just sometimes amazed at how much exercise some folk get up to. However, in the great scheme of things, they're hardly a danger to wider society, but rather, at worst, just an occassional visitor to A&E.

[i]falling over immediately after a front squat, a few of them falling right into squat stands / weight racks.... [/i]
Yeasch!

after re reading your post Molgrips, some of the body weight movements and reps should help.

If you can get some dumbells for home, usual now you will see a lot cheap...bought for xmas fat loss sold in the new year.....

I think experts are great and certainly we can learn loads but healthy questioning is helpful nay essential to understand.......did Dan John not say he had hip replacement at 56/7 .....no idea why and not making the correlation to squatting and heavy weights....joints wear out in all sports people quicker.

Point is I suppose for me be sensible, start slow, learn the form and technique, add reps, look for functionality for your sport add weight or resistance and forget the standards..... oh and stretch!

joints wear out in all sports people quicker.

Rubbish.

I think experts are great and certainly we can learn loads but healthy questioning is helpful nay essential to understand.......did Dan John not say he had hip replacement at 56/7 .....no idea why and not making the correlation to squatting and heavy weights

Then why on earth mention it. Could easily have been a congenital condition, pretty common reason for hip replacements.

Break your hill sprints into 3 segments.

10s,20s then 40s

and repeat.

Second the single leg squats too.

What's the point of it Mol? Races aren't just a 40s sprint up a steep climb (though much over 10 seconds is too long to be called a sprint IMO). If it's for getting better at XC MTB then it needs to be balanced with all the other stuff you need. I think I'd only be looking to address it if I was getting thrashed up the short steep stuff but fine elsewhere. I'd probably still tackle it as an endurance issue (and definitely look at my weight too.)

Edit... only weights work I'd be considering really is core stuff to make sure I can stay as stable as possible over the course of the climb and not be rocking and rolling.

XC Racing is all about power to weight on a hilly course. I used to diet down to about 67kg as that was much easier than trying to gain 10% power!

Turkish get up is another great one for core (liam doing this at 58 secs)

Turkish get up is another great one for core (liam doing this at 58 secs)

[img] [/img]

What's the point of it Mol? Races aren't just a 40s sprint up a steep climb

Yeah of course, but they often contain lots of 40s sprint climbs. And longer ones. And as is rather obvious, I will also be training for longer efforts too 🙂

As for diet.. well.. let's not start on that 🙂

Anyway just back from a road ride and tried some flat out sprints - peaked at 900W which I haven't seen for a long time. Not bad for tired legs.

Then why on earth mention it. Could easily have been a congenital condition, pretty common reason for hip replacements.

There is a lot of suggestion that basically squats are bad, hence the development of the need for 'correct' technique, and the ...look at a baby pick something up and there you will see the perfect technique' is great but they have not added X kilos on a steel bar and are trying to squat to deep, with alack of core muscle and flexibility, to impress there mates in the gym and so on. I would suggest repetition has lead to a hip replacement, hard to say and I agree no ideas of family history though I think he does talk of lineage and genetics, even so I would suggest repetitions in motion lead to joint wear. So look at prehistoric skeletons, many females through grinding corn in a kneeling position hour on hour had terrible joint wear. Similarly with sports players there is a greater risk to joint wear, some motions that we were not, as humans designed to deal with.

Experts in the strength industry told us Nautilus weight machines were the future as they isolated the position of the user to maximise safe use and develop strength....fast forward a decade or two and free weights with Olympic lifting are the best things as they develop balance and strength, using weight machines are not always that great say experts. Again question the 'experts'.

So I mention it as person x in the street or the sofa, who is starting out back to the gym thinks they can hit the 'standards' or they should be looking at the standards to start with is not the best starting place. Scaleability is important and sensibility, what one can do to another often is irrelevant as we all have different starting places and then we can develop to what suits the individuals bodies and needs best, adaptability in training. This can lead to alternative exercises and methods.

AS I said all good debate and just an alternative view.

Experts in the strength industry told us Nautilus weight machines were the future as they isolated the position of the user to maximise safe use and develop strength....fast forward a decade or two and free weights with Olympic lifting are the best things as they develop balance and strength, using weight machines are not always that great say experts. Again question the 'experts'.

What a load of old nonsense.

Free weights, squats, DLs and OLs were the mainstay of weight training for many decades. Then the manufactures of fitness machines and gym managers (not experts) realised that with isolation machines they could completely dumb down gyms and remove the experienced and knowledgeable staff and replace them with young kids who have been on a 6 week PT course. Gyms loved this a their running costs went down as more people could access "weight training" without needing to understand posture, or core strength or breathing or any of the basics.

Fast forward to the present and mainly thanks to Crossfit, people are realising what all Strength and Conditioning coaches have always known, isolation machines are pretty rubbish (with the exception of rehab work) and free weights and full body exercises (Squats & DLs) are the best method for strength and conditioning training.

Free weights and platforms take up a lot of gym space, need proper instruction, have a large learning curve, and more potential for injuries*, hence mainstreams gyms don't like them, although they are starting to appear more and more.

*e.g. I dropped a 60kg bar on my head only last week in a rather poor attempt at a Snatch, which resulted in a large pool of blood on the gym floor....

So.. Should I not go into a hotel gym and do (light) squats based on reading and watching youtube vids? Obviously I would be taking care and being aware of injury potential as I am cautious and not over excited by these things..

Again I was trying to question who 'experts' are.......and what makes an expert.

Lots of athletes and experts have been paid to promote a brand or idea and a lot did in the expansion of the gyms and I agree with you it was about driving the cost down and increasing profitability, lifestyle and narcissism of the 80's. People in there masses believed this was the future and bought into through experts and media exposure...end of the old gyms with metal plates boxing rings and sweat stained floors and welcome to air con. glazed gyms where you could look out on the fresh air and world in safety.

As for Crossfit...well there is another view to the phenomenon it is no different to the same explosion in the leisure centre gyms I have described...Crossfit has

been aggressively marketed and targeted as a business
it an affiliated franchise model
staff can become coaches after a paid weekend away
Olympic lifting is not designed for amrap and RX plus
Rest and recuperation not Uncle Rhabdo or this fine fellow
[img] [/img]

are necessarily the best for muscle development
poor form leads to injuries, crossfit WODs do lead folk to poor form and more injuries occur
Crossfit has in some boxes has become too macho and forgotten scalability of alternatives exercises

Crossfit brand versus Cross training is really fascinating, also did the founder Glassman not take/ took a a lot from Mark Twight allegedly....but Twight (300 fame trainer but a alpinist) felt that Crossfit was too broad and ineffective and looked at individual target based programmes on the needs and requirements of the individual.

So.. Should I not go into a hotel gym and do (light) squats based on reading and watching youtube vids? Obviously I would be taking care and being aware of injury potential as I am cautious and not over excited by these things..

Ideally you want someone in the know to help you start as it takes a while to become familiar with your hip and back position when squatting. Front squats are much better to start with although they are tougher than back squats (no big deal, just lower weights) and some people struggle with shoulder mobility in the front rack position. If you can't manage the front rack position you can squat with the bar atop folded arms.

A good book on all this is Starting Strength: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/starting-strength-review-of-mark-rippetoes-barbell-bible.html

With squats the key things are
1) Braced core, huge deep breath in at the top before lowering
2) Not leaning too far forward, staying upright with weight through the heels
3) Not going too deep too soon, you need to be able to maintain a neutral lower back through the range of motion (this really needs someone else to watch you)
4) Not going too heavy too soon, technique over weight every time

NB The Dad Strength Article: http://danjohn.net/the-overhead-squat-article/

Molgrips, apologies, personally yes I would be in the hotel gym with some dumbbells doing

squats
lunges
core exercises....
calf raises
some flexibity exercise... no weights

swiss ball are useful for exercises and stretching.

Good luck

then build up the weight if you need to and want to.

felt that Crossfit was too broad and ineffective and looked at individual target based programmes on the needs and requirements of the individual.

Good article on this by Mark Rippetoe (author of the barbell bible, Starting Strength): http://www.t-nation.com/training/crossfit-the-good-bad-and-the-ugly

Again I was trying to question who 'experts' are.......and what makes an expert.

Easy one to answer, degree in sports science as a basis then an apprenticeship as a SCC, followed by accreditation by the relevant SCC body. BWL qualifications or national equivalent. Then a few years training at Elite Athlete level, e.g. Olympic Development squads. All my coaches have met all these and more.

Anything less and they're not an expert.

It is a good article especially

exercise versus training

stress and adaptation

From Gym Jones

The Gym Jones Philosophy: 10 Basic Tenets

1. The mind is primary

2. Outcome based training (train for an objective)

3. Functional training (high degree of transfer ability)

4. Movements not muscles (transferable training doesn’t isolate muscles)

5. Power-to-weight ratio (must carry the engine)

6. Train all energy systems (emphasize the important but not at the expense of others)

7. Training is preparation for the real thing (train FOR something)

8. The mind is primary II (eat for an objective)

9. Nutrition is the foundation (eat for an objective)

10. Recovery is more than 50% of the process

also

1 . Don’t train to muscle failure 2 . Intensity isn’t usually the answer 3 . Don’t rely on circuits 4 . Don’t rely on stopwatches

This was a big starting from what Cross-fit instructs . Twight said , “You can’t throw individuals into intensity that rapidly .”

All I suggest works for a lot of folk who go to work out

I personally like the idea of functional gyms allowing people to train to there abilities and allow specific progression.

Just need to book mark this thread.

Problem with front and overhead squats for 'normal' people is that we lack the basic flexibility or its more a case of 'we have lost' the basic flexibility.

I can squat 1.5bw x4 at the moment but I find front squat the .5bw very difficult

What can you recommend to get the flexibility back to progress to a OH/Front squat?

Earl - yoga

I'm doing hill sprints on the bike which take about 40s or so (with a kick at the end) and I go all out, so I feel sick and in pain at the end. But I still feel somehow like I can't sprint as hard as I feel I should be able to. Almost as if I can't activate the muscles or something.

40 seconds is a long interval for 10/10 absolutely on the nail sprints, you only buffer lactic or whatever to around 20 seconds, so the second half of the interval will kill you regardless of leg strength - if you expect to be able to sprint flat out for 40 seconds and feel good to the end, you're being unrealistic I think. Also a session like that is going to be quite hard to recover from, so I wouldn't be surprised if your legs feel heavy for a few days afterwards.

I'd be doing 30 seconds sprints - start with 20-second ones for a few weeks maybe - and genuinely flat out for the whole effort and maybe a set of 10-second phosphate sprints once a week as well.

What can you recommend to get the flexibility back to progress to a OH/Front squat?

Well, that depends.

What's your specific flexibility problem?

Most folk can't bend their ankles sufficiently, which ends up putting knees back, arse back, and torso tilted well forward, consequently the bar falls off position.

But you may also be lacking hip flexibility as well.

Oh, and then for overhead squats, shoulder flexibility required for the low position is not always there.

So in short, lots of

ankle stretches
leg stretches focussing on hip & glute area rather than calf & quad
shoulder stretches

YMMV

I can squat 1.5bw x4 at the moment

ATG?

if not, theres something to work on right away

Why do people insist on telling people to stretch? There is no high quality evidence to support stretching. How about you simply do your weighted exercises through full range rather than thinking you can lift hunners but only in the middle range.

There is no high quality evidence to support stretching.

Stretching for what purpose?

Something to do with being able to increase range-of-motion without weight before trying it with weight, I expect.

Stretching for whichever purpose you feel the need to stretch for.

I have to say I get confused with cycling fitness/ leg strength .I started to doing squats and presses last year but stopped as I was getting knee pain when riding ,not sure what's the best way-just get fit by cycling or use other means.does it depend on how often you ride or are there other factors ? I'm an old gadger at 60 but have ridden for yonks.