The US president is proposing an end to gas guzzling cars. Nothing wrong with that!
The proposals are that by 2016, national emissions rules will require cars to do and average 35 miles per gallon.
Bear in mind the UK gallon is 20% greater in volume than our gallon. Therefore the figure by UK standards is less than 30mpg. The current US average MPG is hugely wasteful 17 mpg (US Gallons).
As more than 50% of personal private cars are light trucks typically with 5.7L engines, they will have to trade [u]up[/u] to a smaller engined car! US vehicle sales are driven by price and so many cars have technology that has not evolved - re-engineering and refinement costs money. Their thinking was "Why bother when fuel is so cheap?"
In the UK our average MPG for the average engine size (between 1.4L and 2.0L) is around 32mpg for petrol and 42 mpg for diesel. Diesel car sales account for 50% of new car sales and is rising. In France, 71% of cars are diesel powered. The UK is gradually heading this way.
[url= http://environment.uk.msn.com/climate-change/article.aspx?cp-documentid=7904422 ]Emissions calculator info[/url]
The average US driver drives 68% further than the British driver. Average US mileage is 13,476. Average UK mileage is around 8000. Both UK and US miles are the same at 5,280 international feet.
46% of Britons drive between 1000 and 5000 miles per annum.
[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8007798.stm ]UK mileage falls as ownership increases[/url]
In the US they have 10 times as many private vehicles as we do here; The US who have a population of around 303,825,000 and nearly one car per head versus the UK's 60,944,000 with one car for every two people.
Their consumption, despite the propsed marked reductions will still be dwarf ours (around 30% more per individual vehicle on a MPG basis alone before you factor in the 68% higher usage and ten fold increse in vheicle numbers).
A global summit is required and the average figure we should be aiming for is at least 50mpg with reduced mileage below 10k (btw. my 8 year old banger - an Audi A6 does more than this and I do around 4k miles a year).
Sick of listening to the eco bullshit thrown at us here! [u]Please conserve energy[/u], but don't be hoodwinked by the sound bites of the eco-warriors and politician's. Even if we did make massive cuts in consumption here, it won't make any measurable difference to the global picture. The USA has by far the biggest problem, not our little island! There is no way we should be penalised to the extent we already are we are either!
The problem is that people aren't furnished with the figures, but many can't be bothered to process numbers anyway. Soundbyte suckers!
s'pose I'll have to to some penance of some sort?
I’m off there in a week or so & have rented a great big ***k off pick-up truck with an engine the size of a house 😈
Feel free to drive it into the ground. It won't make the slightest difference in the grand scheme of things.
Bear in mind the UK gallon is 20% greater in volume than our gallon. Therefore the figure by UK standards is less than 30mpg.
Please check your maths.
[i]Bear in mind the UK gallon is 20% greater in volume than our gallon[/i]
Sorry?
[i]The average US driver drives 68% further than the British driver. Average US mileage is 13,476. Average UK mileage is around 8000. Both UK and US miles are the same at 5,280 international feet.[/i]
I wonder why that is?
[i]In the US they have 10 times as many private vehicles as we do here; The US who have a population of around 303,825,000 and nearly one car per head versus the UK's 60,944,000 with one car for every two people.[/i]
So you saying that everyone on the US can drive a car and only half can drive a car in the UK?
[i]A global summit is required and the average figure we should be aiming for is at least 50mpg with reduced mileage below 10k (btw. my 8 year old banger - an Audi A6 does more than this and I do around 4k miles a year).[/i]
/clap
1 Imperial gallon = 1.20095042 US gallons!
Therefore in the US 35 mpg approx equal to 42mpg here? Not < 30. 😆
1 Imperial (UK) gallon = 1.20095042 US gallons.
Thus making 35 miles per US gallon
= 35*1.2 miles per imperial gallon
= 42 British mpg?
No?
Joe
Indeed
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A global summit is required and the average figure we should be aiming for is at least 50mpg with reduced mileage below 10k (btw. my 8 year old banger - an Audi A6 does more than this and I do around 4k miles a year).
Sick of listening to the eco bullshit thrown at us here! Please conserve energy, but don't be hoodwinked by the sound bites of the eco-warriors and politician's
You've failed to take any account of the journeys people need to make. The personal vehicle requirements of a typical Londoner are likely to be completely different of somebody who lives in the highlands- as is the requirements of somebody who lives in, say, the mid-west, or even an urban sprawl like LA in the US. I respectfully allege that you're the person guilty of using soundbites. 😀
Correction: Bear in mind the UK gallon is 20% greater in volume than [u]THEIR[/u] gallon. tsk tsk.
What difference does it make? So your point is?The average US driver drives 68% further than the British driver. Average US mileage is 13,476. Average UK mileage is around 8000. Both UK and US miles are the same at 5,280 international feet.I wonder why that is?"
NO! What I am saying is that there are half as many cars to people in the UK, but in the US there is almost one car per head of population! The safe conclusion is that more people have a car. We know this because public transport in the US is pretty non-existent.In the US they have 10 times as many private vehicles as we do here; The US who have a population of around 303,825,000 and nearly one car per head versus the UK's 60,944,000 with one car for every two people.So you saying that everyone on the US can drive a car and only half can drive a car in the UK?
From this article, it says that the new US law is 42 US mpg, which is actually almost exactly the 50 UK miles per gallon that you are suggesting in your first post.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30810514/
I suspect from the coincidence in the numbers, that you got your 35mpg number from a UK article which had also done the maths the wrong way round, and then did your own conversion on it to get to your far out figure.
Joe
OMG! I had a numpty moment with the us to uk conversion. 😳
Makes note to wake up properly first thing in the morning before doing anything that involves maths! 😆
So the figures are a lot more ambitious, but they still won't beat our average MPGs. They still have ten times as many vehicles etc etc...
[i]NO! What I am saying is that there are half as many cars to people in the UK, but in the US there is almost one car per head of population! The safe conclusion is that more people have a car. We know this because public transport in the US is pretty non-existent. [/i]
Of course there are millions of people in China and India, looking at our 1 car per 2 people in the UK and despairing when they are told that they have to reduce their carbon footprint when their whole village doesn't even have a fridge.
The world is such an unfair place! I recommend 1 fridge for every Chinese houshold! 😆
And China's CO2 output is more than 6 times that of ours despite nobody living there - most in poverty. Much of the pollution comes from manufacturing goods to ship elsewhere in the world. Who is China's biggest customer by far? The US?
I am not advocating being wasteful, quite the opposite. I am merely pointing out that the biggest offender is USA which uses vastly more energy per head of population than any other developed country in the World.
[url= http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/env_co2_emi-environment-co2-emissions ]CO2 Output table for each country[/url]
The per capita is an interesting table -
[url] http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/env_co2_emi_percap-environment-co2-emissions-per-capita [/url]
The average US driver drives 68% further than the British driver. Average US mileage is 13,476. Average UK mileage is around 8000. Both UK and US miles are the same at 5,280 international feet.I wonder why that is?"
What difference does it make? So your point is?
Last time I looked the US is slightly bigger than the UK.
NO! What I am saying is that there are half as many cars to people in the UK, but in the US there is almost one car per head of population! The safe conclusion is that more people have a car. We know this because public transport in the US is pretty non-existent.
Yes but it'll be hard to use them all at once, number per head means nothing. And again the distances involved would explain why the use public transport less.
Just another example of our government forcing us to meet rules that nobody else bothers to enforce. We must turn up at these summits like the teachers pet, the only ones who've done their homework, but nobody takes us seriously.
Just another example of our government forcing us to meet rules that nobody else bothers to enforce.... nobody takes us seriously.
and how seriously would we be taken if we showed up at summits saying [i]"You have to meet these emission targets or we're all doomed. Obviously we're not going to bother, because we're only small, but you have to."[/i]?
And China's CO2 output is more than 6 times that of ours despite nobody living there
Your arguments would carry more weight if you wrote a little more carefully.
Whilst the US is a bigger country, and has a larger population. The consumption of natural resources per individual is far greater than any other developed country.
[url= http://www.worldpopulationbalance.org/pop/energy/ ]More boring facts and figures.[/url]
Like speed cameras were justified on the argument they would save lives, green taxes are justified they will save the planet. Neither of these things make any significant difference and are simply untrue.
If we really want to do something about emissions, we will have to abandon life as we know it. Not just here i the UK, but all over the developed world!
Vibrant economies use energy. No government will truly comit to green issues because it kills economies and hits them in the pocket. Did you hear politicians telling us how wonderful last years high fuel prices were benefitting the environment when consumption fell? Are they announcing success in reducing emissions because sales of cars are down 60%? Producing a motor vehicle and shipping it to the customer uses large amounts of energy. Some say as much energy as they will consume in the vehicle's lifetime.
We'd best start funding nuclear fusion more, without it we're scuppered.
Like speed cameras were justified on the argument they would save lives, green taxes are justified they will save the planet. Neither of these things make any significant difference and are simply untrue.
Complete aside but there is fairly strong evidence for speed cameras reducing the number of crashes when they are deployed at accident blackspots.
Back on-topic: what is your answer then? Do nothing? The general principal of "Green taxes" seem like a fairly sensible way to help change behaviour to me. (though I'm not saying the implementation is that great). How else do you get individuals and businesses to respond? Politely worded letters?
SB, I'm still not sure quite what you're advocating.
Are you saying that it is pointless for us to do anything because no one else is doing anything.
Or are you saying that we should all do our bit?
I think it's a move in the right direction that the US will have a target where previously it didn't have one, whatever that target is.
OTOH I recently came across this very simple statement/calculation provided by George Marshall in his book [url= http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1856752887/ref=s9_simx_gw_s3_p14_i1?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=14AP634N38HT0T0C0MJW&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=467198433&pf_rd_i=468294 ]Carbon Detox[/url] which, if you take it on board is a pretty good guide to how you/we/I should be living.
He says that the biosphere is capable of removing about 10 billion tonnes of CO2 from the atmosphere each year.
As there are about 6.7 billion of us, that means we can liberate about 1.5 tonnes each without changing the status quo.
In the UK we liberate about 12 tonnes each per year.
If you think about it, you can work out where to go from there really.
Guys, stop arguing who is to blame for global warming etc. All of these issues would not be a problem if the population was not growing so fast.
More people = more polution/CO2/consumption/water/minerals/power and on and on.
Until the world brings the population back to a sustainable level the rest of this talk about global warming and how / who to address it is just a waste of time. If we provide clean cheap fuel we will just use more of it - that will mean we consume more raw materials that are not replaced.
There needs to be a cull. Ive made a start - No kids, and if you fancy having any its my mission to put you off. I will even offer to do a vasectomy for you, Ive some bricks Im planning on building a BBQ with, but Im sure there are two spare 🙂
USA is hindered by the fact that their diesel isn't high enough quality for modern European Diesels to pass the emmissions tests over there, so they can't follow France and the UK to improve average mpg that way yet.
Isn't that just a case of the tail wagging the dog though? Their petroleum industry won't refine fuel any better till it's forced to.
Guys, stop arguing who is to blame for global warming etc. All of these issues would not be a problem if the population was not growing so fast.More people = more polution/CO2/consumption/water/minerals/power and on and on.
Until the world brings the population back to a sustainable level the rest of this talk about global warming and how / who to address it is just a waste of time. If we provide clean cheap fuel we will just use more of it - that will mean we consume more raw materials that are not replaced.
Hits nail on head.
Trimix a person after my own heart - Why on earth someone would want kids is beyond me
But that's a whole debate for another time
and how seriously would we be taken if we showed up at summits saying "You have to meet these emission targets or we're all doomed. Obviously we're not going to bother, because we're only small, but you have to."?
You're assuming that anybody else gives a fiddler's what we're up to. The politicians have to curry favour in their home countries, even the Chinese. That means they'll align their policies to keep the people happy. Most of the world's population don't have the comfortable standard of living that is a pre-requisite for environmental hand wringing, we aren't going to influence them. The only way we are going to get them to clean up on CO2 is by making renewables cheaper than other sources, or letting them go nuclear, which has its own problems.
I would also feel better on a personal level if politicians in the UK would admit that the reason we pay more for nice cars is that demand is fairly inelastic and it creates a nice opporunity for taxation. I suppose it just grates with me that my tax is justified on a moral/idealistic basis when so much of it ends up wasted in achieving very little.