MrSmith - Member
MrSmith - Member
MrSmith - Member
MrSmith - Member
Hora so have you had enough time to ponder my question?
so do you still think he's innocent and didn't dope?
just wonderin like.
POSTED 22 HOURS AGO #
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😆
MrSmith - Member
MrSmith - Member
MrSmith - Member
MrSmith - Member
Hora so have you had enough time to ponder my question?
so do you still think he's innocent and didn't dope?
just wonderin like.
POSTED 22 HOURS AGO #
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😆
Based on this story
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/20014630
I don't think he's going to be doing any confessing just yet...
glitch bump
45 pages is too much for the forum to cope with... 😉
Hmm the bit where he suggests Lance never had cancer wouldn't seem to lend credibility to it. One of the comments about when Livestrong bands came out is interesting too.
And, $35,000 to ride with him!?
Edit: eh, where's the post I was replying to gone? OMG conspiracy!
grum - did you just reply to a thread you made up in your head? 🙂
The post is the last one on page 45....
Oh......
:crackhead:
So I think what we've established is Lance is a complete **** and doped. I don't think there are many people except maybe hora who don't accept that.
I don't think there are many people except maybe hora who don't accept that.
and Lance of course
So I think what we've established is Lance is a complete **** and doped. I don't think there are many people except maybe hora who don't accept that.
I fully expect some kind of statement about the good work he does for others, how he's always been a fighter of just causes and how he sees himself as an inspiration to others as a means to avoid the pertinent question.
Much like lance has done...
Lance can't admit the truth for various legal and financial reasons. If he's not forced to by a court (and even then he can plead the fifth) then he'll just leave it hanging.
It's a sad day when LA is probably more hated than Jimmy S.
By the sound of most on here you would rather let JS babysit your 14 year old girls than Lance.
Some of you guys need to calm down a bit and get some perspective
Strawman anyone?
Strawman anyone?
Yep
It's a sad day when LA is probably more hated than Jimmy S.By the sound of most on here you would rather let JS babysit your 14 year old girls than Lance.
Some of you guys need to calm down a bit and get some perspective
Some of you need to stop taking the Internet so seriously and not get so excited about what somebody you don't know has posted on a forum that you need to "calm down" 🙄
Whatever you say smith
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Where IS Hora anyway? He's gone all quiet. I have visions of him rocking back and forth in a chair moaning "Lance, how could you?" over and over...
In another thread hora said 'they all cheated, he was just the best at cheating'. 😐
There is some truth in that
'they all cheated' - some of them because lance bullied them into it, and apart from the ones who weren't cheating who were victimised and intimidated out of the sport.
How did lance intimidate say someone like Frank Schleck ? People were cheating before Armstrong and they have been cheating since he left. With all the organising of the drugs and all the intimidation and bullying how did he find time to ride a bike.
How did lance intimidate say someone like Frank Schleck ?
Straw man - who claimed he has?
People were cheating before Armstrong and they have been cheating since he left.
True - has anyone claimed people only cheated due to LA? Relevance?
With all the organising of the drugs and all the intimidation and bullying how did he find time to ride a bike.
Is this a serious question? I am not sure what you are trying to imply could you be explicit?
A lot cheated but the they all cheated but LA was the best is just another part of the mythology BS LA awesome legend- ie we are meant to think if they were all clean he would still have won. The problem is his clean results are average [ for a pro and he did not even complete a TdF before winning it*] and we all know that the drugs dont affect everyone equally so he may have just got the best boost from the regime or dont the best system etc
All we can say is that of the cheats he was the best at cheating and some of the riders were riding clean.
* he is not listed in the classification results on Wiki - if anyone knows differently I am happy to have the full answer.
Is this what the Lance-defenders have been reduced to? Clutching at tiny straws.
I am no Lance defender just trying to put a bit of balance into the discussion.
How did lance intimidate say someone like Frank Schleck ?
You typed Franck Schleck, probably should have typed Simeoni, y'know the one that retired with his face covered in his own tears and the spit of the rest of the peleton.
No I know what I typed, the treatment dished out to Simeoni was despicable and indefensible. Armstrong led that and should be ashamed of his actions.
People were cheating before Armstrong and they have been cheating since he left.
Additionally to what Junkyard has mentioned.
'According to Tylers book (make of this what you will) The 2005 French national doping testing labs retrospective study of the 1999 tour Lance tested positive from samples for Stages 1,9,10,12, and 14.
These are the positives Lance claimed to be tampered with. Countered by Dr Micheal Ashenden stating that tampering would be beyond astronomical.
Of the other 81 samples from the rest of the peleton 7 tested positive 8.6%'
The Festina affair was probably Grand Tour cyclings best (albeit perhaps slim?) chance for going clean. Lance ensured(arguably with others) that to win, you had to dope.
The problem is his clean results are average [ for a pro and he did not even complete a TdF before winning it*]
In his defence, he was World Road Race Champion when he was 21 (1993). That was before cancer but given the history and revelations, he was almost certainly on steroids/testosterone then as well.
After cancer, he'd lost a huge amount of weight so that helped him become a grand tour contender. He'd finished high up in the Vuelta before he won the Tour. Yes, doped obviously but the example still stands.
You don't win the World Championships by being average.
However arguments about "he was the best doper, they were all on it" don't wash because people react differently to drugs - what gives one rider a 10% boost might only give a 2% boost to another rider so it's still not a level playing field by any means.
For accuracy I am not saying he was utterly rubbish just that his Grand tour results were not good
TBH there was another thread on this and One day racers /stage winners dont tend to convert to GC winners with his record - imagine cav for Gilbert or Cancellera winning the TdF.
He was a very good one day rider but his Tours were poor. We then argued about training methods etc.
I dont think you can quote a doping result to show how good he was without dope
My view is we cannot know for sure but he did not show form that he would dominate the tour like he did
Here is against the big Mig pre doping in a TT during a tour[94] for example as to how much he improved.
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/what-would-a-clean-lance-have-been-like
Was Miguel Indurain clean? Not wanting to cause an argument but just wondering if there were any rumours about him?
Most hardened (cynical) fans regard Big Mig as dodgy....EPO taking hold of the peloton seemingly overlapped with the latter of his tour wins. Lemond say that all of a sudden the peloton was going along at warp speed in 1995....
Indurain got discussed as well - he was found guilty of using an inhaler - as for the rest there are no actual rumours about him but , given the period, we would have to say who knows
It is clear Indurain was a bit of freak physiologically with his low heart rate and huge VO2- I would be more inclined to think he could have done it clean than LA - I m not saying Indurain was not clean just that most of cycling was tainted.
he'd lost a huge amount of weight
This was another myth that was perpetuated, his starting weights were practically the same.
Indurain got caught using salbutamol although at the time I don't think it was actually illegal in the strictest definition of the word.
The problem here is that the few cyclists out there with no doping history or record are now under suspicion as well. How can he have won clean if everyone else was doped? Lemond, Indurain, Cippolini.
??
Hence why this goes far deeper than just LA, this is the whole sport from domestic pros right up through World Tour to the UCI itself.
So what are we going to get tomorrow? Verbruggen resigns and UCI accept the USADA report? Does anyone think the Lance will eventually admit to it for it the sake of the book and film rights down the line:)
one more bump 🙄
and again
Good God, even Phil Liggett has accepted it!
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/phil-liggett-i-had-no-reason-not-to-believe-lance-8219480.html
Although he still seems to be using the "well they were all on it" argument.
Not only did Lance not finish the TdF before his first win, he was effectively considered a makeweight, not good in the mountains, not good at time trials so effectively a windbreak to keep your important riders fresh on the flat stages rather than a super domestique who could help make a GC victory happen (see Froome for this).
There was nothing, pre-cancer, to suggest he was going to be anything other than a domestique with the occasional one-day or short stage-race win.
He was pretty highly rated as a stage hunter in the TdF and as a one day rider wasn't he? He was world champion in 1991.
and the other riders who have converted from one day races to grand tour winners with a record of not completing them is ???
I dont think anyone is saying he was rubbish just that his pre drugs record is not stellar in comparison to his post drug record- particularly in relation to grand tours]. It gave no indication of what was to come and it is a large leap to assume he could have done it without drugs and we should not assume he would have. However we will never know for sure but I am not convinced.
I was posting in response to atlaz making out that he was a no hoper pre cancer-he was still a heavyweight of the peloton. As of tomorrow I'd guess that his palmares pre cancer will look pretty rosy compared to his post cancer one 🙂
they will but I agree with Atlaz. His results were Good for one day /a stage win and very mleh for a grand tour- not unlike Millar is , to complete the circle
