There's enough BS in this thread to cultivate a fair bit of synthetic meat, eh?
You don't really believe what you're saying do you Poly?
eh? So a lamb chop goes straight from the farm to a packet in the supermarket?
plus the year it spent running around a field burning energy and breaking wind.
Gram for gram meat is 73x worse than tofu (other vegetarian protein sources are available).
A kilo of beef protein is roughly equivalent to flying to New York!
"Lab grown meat" is kind of emotive. It conjures up some weird notions - synthetic protein is probably better.
Like a fair chunk of us I eat meat most days, but aside from the Sunday chicken (always free range, they taste better) the meat i'm eating could really be made of anything.
If artificially produced "chicken breast" cooked and tasted like chicken breast from a real chicken then I'd be all for it. When I make a curry or chicken fajitas I don't really care if its "meat" I just want it to have a texture and flavour I'm familiar with.
So if this "synthetic protein" delivers on that and is actually easier on the environment then its a good thing. Add in to the equation the fact that having viable alternate food sources can't do any harm when you are living on a planet with a growing population and rapid environmental change.
Winner of today’s massive fanciful assumption award
I assume you're of the impression the world is a wonderful place populated solely by people of good intentions, pure thoughts and benevolent action?
Can you give an example of how demand for a product (as opposed to a method of production) has led to better production practices and limited supply? (edit: ethically better,in opposition to ethically worse production and higher volume)
plus the year it spent running around a field burning energy and breaking wind.
Yes, I hadn't even considered methane emissions from ruminants: CH4 is 25x more potent than CO2 as a greenhouse gas.
I assume you’re of the impression the world is a wonderful place populated solely by people of good intentions, pure thoughts and benevolent action?
Can you give an example of how demand for a product (as opposed to a method of production) has led to better production practices and limited supply?
Don't you cringe reading that back?
I'm quite curious and not a little disturbed at the people here who are questioning the efficiency or suggesting that it's bad because it will require large industrial plants. What can be less efficient than fencing off a significant portion of the world's available land, and destroying habitats which keep the planet alive in order to manufacture a product which we don't really need? If a farm isn't a biochemistry facility what is it? What's worse is that these 'natural' facilities are allowed to empty their waste across the land and into our water sources almost unchecked. Far better to have fewer strategically located and massively productive facilities than lots of unproductive ones taking up all the land. I'm thinking something similar to oil refineries and chemical plants.
For the record I doubt I'll be eating any lab-grown chicken. I'm happily vegan and will continue with the plant based alternatives, for no other reason than I'm used to not liking the taste and texture of real meat.
What’s worse is that these ‘natural’ facilities are allowed to empty their waste across the land and into our water sources almost unchecked.
In the UK there are quite big restrictions on what is allowed to enter water courses be that from farms or industrial complexes. Of course other parts of the world have other standards, some significantly lower. High standards are expensive though so if you're going to produce cheap (real or synthetic) you tend* to need to do so in places with lower ones.
*of course the cost of physical production isn't the only cost of getting a product to market so it's not always the case that it's cost effective.
In the UK there are quite big restrictions on what is allowed to enter water courses be that from farms or industrial complexes
Farming pollution is a serious and recurring problem in the UK, so the restrictions don't seem to be working too well.
Feels like we should be able to live harmoniously, sustainably and respectfully alongside everything we share this rock with.
Nope. Far to late for that. Exploitation of our planets animals is one of the reasons there are too many of us present to achieve your above wishes.
Farming pollution is a serious and recurring problem in the UK, so the restrictions don’t seem to be working too well.
Its enforcement thats the problem. The Environment Agency is culturally weak on enforcement, and chronically under resourced.
(scaled up lab grown meat is basically going to be a big biochemistry facility)?
It’ll be more like a biologics facility, single use bioreactors - no need for as much steel and piping.
Recyclable single use bioreactors are also in development.
Nope. Far to late for that. Exploitation of our planets animals is one of the reasons there are too many of us present to achieve your above wishes.
There’s not too many people, there’s just too many westerners.
There’s not too many people, there’s just too many westerners.
China is catching up.
A 2014 study published in Nature by researchers at the University of Cambridge and the University of Aberdeen stated that to keep up with the demand for meat, agricultural emissions worldwide will likely need to increase by up to 80 percent by 2050—a figure that alone could jeopardize the ambitious plan to keep planetary warming below the 2-degrees Celsius benchmark set under the Paris climate accord.
Pretty sure the average Chinese person still puts out half to a third of the co2 that westerners are responsible for.
Blaming population is just a convenient way to scapegoat the global poors/peasantry. As soon as UKIP latch on to that argument and synthesise nativism with conservationism/environmentalism we’re all ****ed.
But yeah....oh noo Chynahhhhs coming to get us
Blaming population is just a convenient way to scapegoat the global poors/peasantry.
Population is a red herring. We can easily feed all the people on earth, and a lot more, just not on a western style meat based diet. It's ironic that the reason there's not much space is because huge amounts of it are taken up by livestock farming. In a world where livestock farming doesn't exist there'd be a lot more land available for settlement without negatively impacting wildlife habitats and green space.
It’s ironic that the reason there’s not much space is because huge amounts of it are taken up by livestock farming.
That needs a bar chart
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I don’t know how accurate that is tbh
Blaming population is just a convenient way to scapegoat the global poors/peasantry.
Nice strawman.
I was referring to a continent whose population increasingly adopts similar consumer/meat-obsessed fatty habits to that of the Western/US-style culture. You can read whatever you want into such a fact, but I don’t appreciate the projecting/assumption of ‘scapegoating’. Flat wrong.
You don’t really believe what you’re saying do you Poly?
Well, I certainly think the questions need asked and the assumptions challenged. It's very unlikely that is more efficient today. I often hear people make wild assumptions about process efficiency scale-up, most of which are not based on science or experience but just a gut feel that we'll be able to make this better. The entire argument here seems to be "well the current process is so bad we must be able to do it better", not "well we've genetically engineered this enzyme to be 10x more efficient than the natural one". I genuinely don't think most people who see a flask of stuff growing in a lab have any idea how many kg of crop or hectares of field went to making its content.
Recyclable single use bioreactors are also in development.
So there's a huge amount of plastic waste in single-use bioreactors - hopefully, the PR people will keep that out the press, cos it doesn't fit with the eco arguments! FWIW I don't think you can scale up to replacing a substantial part of the UK diet with little bioreactors - it's not a few hundred milligrams of pharmaceutical per person we are talking about.
eh? So a lamb chop goes straight from the farm to a packet in the supermarket?
No, although the "best" (environmentally speaking) real meat might well be going farm > local abattoir > local shop -- I very much doubt that any fake meat manufacturer is thinking about having a dozen factories in the UK to "keep it local". This is back to the argument that people are comparing the worst with the best - the George Moinboit article falls into the same trap, he links to the Nature article he is writing about but it shows nearly a whole order of magnitude difference between different farming systems used in Brazil, and no acknowledgement that much less intense (and possibly environmentally more positive) farming systems are used in other parts of the world.[1]
I've not read this [2] in full, but at a glance after a quick google it seems to suggest on almost every metric lab-grown meat is a long way from being "better" for the environment, and soy, eating insects and mycoprotein (e.g. quorn) are more sustainable.
I’m quite curious and not a little disturbed at the people here who are questioning the efficiency
So you think it's sensible that we all blindly follow the commercially led arguments that this is what's good for us? Is questioning not, in fact, the healthy option - which forces the debate and evidence of the claims to come out and counter-arguments to be considered?
Remember, tobacco companies used to claim it was good for you?
or suggesting that it’s bad because it will require large industrial plants. What can be less efficient than fencing off a significant portion of the world’s available land, and destroying habitats which keep the planet alive in order to manufacture a product which we don’t really need?
But that's my point - just because there won't be animals wandering in fields doesn't mean that we won't need fields - they'll just get used to grow the crops which feed the bioreactors (probably after multiple intermediate processes), and fed with chemical fertilisers. Lab-grown meat isn't a miracle that produces something from nothing. Indeed it doesn't even do it without actual animal cells (something which if often glossed over when promoting the concept to veggies/vegans) [3].
Far better to have fewer strategically located and massively productive facilities than lots of unproductive ones taking up all the land. I’m thinking something similar to oil refineries and chemical plants.
And ship raw material around the world to feed the equipment and the output back to feed people? Putting countries who invest in plants at an economic and strategic advantage over those who do not?
[1] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.3184/003685017X14876775256165
[2] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11367-015-0931-6
[3] https://philpapers.org/archive/ALVLMA.pdf
No thanks, I will stick to real meat. I would rather eat less than some lab thing.
Quorn Nuggets are not bad. We shouldn't be waiting for lab grown meat to sort out animal welfare and the environmental impact of the meat industry.
I wish all farmers were like 'WelshFarmer' - yes meat would be more expensive, yes we'd eat less of it but it would be more sustainable and less cruel.
So there’s a huge amount of plastic waste in single-use bioreactors – hopefully, the PR people will keep that out the press, cos it doesn’t fit with the eco arguments! FWIW I don’t think you can scale up to replacing a substantial part of the UK diet with little bioreactors – it’s not a few hundred milligrams of pharmaceutical per person we are talking about.
Single use bioreactors are still better for the environment as you aren’t using a **** tonne of energy and chemicals during campaign cleans.
I can quite easily see them replacing battery farming methods.
Shipping materials around the world can in some circumstances be cleaner than sourcing locally as well. Especially if it means more land can be rewilded, without having to extra sites/supply that’s not actually needed.
So you think it’s sensible that we all blindly follow the commercially led arguments that this is what’s good for us? Is questioning not, in fact, the healthy option – which forces the debate and evidence of the claims to come out and counter-arguments to be considered?
If commercial business listened to the proles we’d all be driving around in v8 gas guzzlers with no seat belts. It’s not the public that’s driving the move to more economical and safer cars, it’s the business and political classes.
If commercial business listened to the proles we’d all be driving around in v8 gas guzzlers with no seat belts.
I'm not sure its useful, helpful or intelligent to suggest that the differences of opinion are based on the class of the decision maker. The implication is that you think you are better than those who disagree with you, which is rarely a good way to win over the opposition.
It’s not the public that’s driving the move to more economical and safer cars, it’s the business and political classes.
mmm... but that's another area where there isn't universal agreement on the best solution. Whilst clearly we are heading to an electric world, digging up a finite resource to make Li batteries is not necessarily environmentally or strategically a perfect solution. Political intervention means we have this weird situation where its financially attractive for some company car owners to buy hybrids that will be used in a really inefficient way. There's a significant number of people who think the government should be investing in (or encouraging business to invest in) hydrogen rather than lithium... Who's been lobbying to electric vehicles I wonder? would it be electric vehicle makers, lithium battery makers etc? Similarly a lot of the things that make it safer to sit in the car don't necessarily make it safer for us cyclist on the outside, so don't assume car makers are interested in what's best rather than what they can sell you, any more that a food producer.
I've been vegetarian for almost two years now. The only thing I miss is the texture of meat in things like curry or chilli. I chucked a packet of Quorn mince in a slow cooked bean chilli yesterday out of curiosity, and it worked quite well.
I'm not deluding myself that I'm saving the world, though. A lot of the veggie (and especially vegan) diet relies on heavily processed foods with a ton of miles embedded. The argument that locally sourced meat, ethically produced on poor quality land, is more sound than processed soya products shipped halfway round the world seems valid.
Ultimately, though, we're ****ed, and it's just a question of timescale and how many species and ecosystems we take down with us.
diet relies on heavily processed foods
Out of curiosity, do you have some examples?
I am conscious that I’ve taken the whole avoiding processed foods a few steps further than most. E.g. we make from scratch Tofu, Oat Milk, Butter, cheese. But I am still curious as to what the average veggie is eating that’s heavily reliant on processed goods.
Out of curiosity, do you have some examples?
I am conscious that I’ve taken the whole avoiding processed foods a few steps further than most. E.g. we make from scratch Tofu, Oat Milk, Butter, cheese. But I am still curious as to what the average veggie is eating that’s heavily reliant on processed goods.
When I've read the ingredients list of colourful packets boldly claiming to be vegan usually the contents sound more like a shampoo! My gut feel is anything that boldly claims on the packaging to be "plant based" and bears no resemblance to vegetables is likely to be heavily processed.
Presumably the ultimate example is the Greggs Vegan Sausage Roll... I'm guessing not too many Greggs customers are making their own tofu, vegan butter and vegan cheese?
I was referring more to veganism than vegetarianism. I'd defer to my sister on this, who's been veggie (definitely NOT vegan) for 35+ years and knows her subject. She got very interested in healthy diet while steering her GP husband through five years of terminal pancreatic cancer.
mmm… but that’s another area where there isn’t universal agreement on the best solution. Whilst clearly we are heading to an electric world, digging up a finite resource to make Li batteries is not necessarily environmentally or strategically a perfect solution. Political intervention means we have this weird situation where its financially attractive for some company car owners to buy hybrids that will be used in a really inefficient way. There’s a significant number of people who think the government should be investing in (or encouraging business to invest in) hydrogen rather than lithium
Again it's not really the public who are leading calls for hydrogen, they are the political and business classes - just a different group of them. The general public don't drive opinion making, those two classes and the media do. And whenever something sensible comes along like vaccines, seat belts, self-driving cars and cleaner energy forms - there are always, always members of the general public who resist it just because they skim read and regurgitate an article in the Daily Mail or infowars.
Current li cars have an average lifetime co2 output of 125g/km - fuel cells have about 120g/km. Fuel cell emissions will only drop when hydrogen production is cleaner.
Presumably the ultimate example is the Greggs Vegan Sausage Roll… I’m guessing not too many Greggs customers are making their own tofu, vegan butter and vegan cheese?
A little searching will save a lifetime of exciting assumptions and false equivalence
Quorn Foods products may now be part of a booming industry of meat alternatives – but that has not stemmed criticism that they are heavily processed and a far cry from natural, plant-based diets.
“We use the age-old process of fermentation to grow our mycoprotein and then create the textures people enjoy simply by cooking and freezing.” Finnegan says. “To say that this is somehow ‘highly processed’ is not to be treated fairly in the debate. Mycoprotein is a complete protein, high in fibre, low in saturated fat and contains no cholesterol.”
It’s processed. As are pork sausage rolls. As is most ready-cooked food. Most pork is raised on processed soy from halfway across the world. Before the pig itself is processed. And then pulped into those highly processed pastry cases.
I wonder if the Gregg’s vegan sausage roll was instead called a ‘potato and mushroom’ roll (ie the filling is largely mycoprotein and potato) whether it would attract the same type of tabloid attention?
I rarely visit Gregg’s (maybe a handful of times in a lifetime) but I tried their vegan sausage roll once (think left a review on STW). It was OK in a crappy sausage roll way, but prefer the Linda McCartney ones you cook at home. Again, I eat them a few times a year. Maybe once every three months. As a vegan household we cook most of our meals from scratch. The tofu we eat is made in Yorkshire from organic beans. Our lentils are dried or canned, just like baked beans or dried beans that meat eaters eat. The vegetables are the same vegetables that meat-eaters buy, although we try to buy local.
I think what I’m trying to say is that global consumption of junk food is not exclusive to vegan junk food. In fact a tiny portion of the UK population choose a plant-based diet (maybe 1%) and I don’t know how many of that 1% eat a primarily highly processed diet, but they do seem in these discussions to get most of the flack for consuming processed food/junk food while the other 99% presumably also consume junk food in addition to processed animals that are fed on processed soy.
I was referring more to veganism than vegetarianism.
So was I tbh, but we rarely go near the veggie/vegan freezer section.
When I’ve read the ingredients list of colourful packets boldly claiming to be vegan usually the contents sound more like a shampoo! My gut feel is anything that boldly claims on the packaging to be “plant based” and bears no resemblance to vegetables is likely to be heavily processed.
It’s either Vegan or it’s not. If the packaging is miss leading you should report it to trading standards.
Inspired by Poly’s wonderings I just compared the ingredients of a (Vegan) processed meal I have in our freezer with a meat version
A Chicago Town BBQ jackfruit takewaway style frozen pizza.
Ingredients:
Wheat Flour (with Calcium, Iron, Thiamin (B1), Niacin (B3)), Tomato Puree, Dairy Free Mozzarella Alternative (10%) (Water, Vegetable Oil (Coconut), Modified Potato Starch, Sea Salt, Flavouring, Colour (Beta-Carotene), Antioxidant (Olive Extract), Vitamin B12), Water, BBQ Seasoned Jackfruit (6%) (Jackfruit, Water, Brown Sugar, Grilled Onions, Salt, Herbs and Spices, Garlic Puree (Water, Dehydrated Garlic, Concentrated Lemon Juice, Salt), Acidity Regulator (Citric Acid)), Vegetable Oils (Palm, Sunflower), Red Peppers (2%), Green Peppers (2%), Red Onions (2%), Yeast, Sugar, Salt, Modified Potato Starch, Barley Malt Extract, Emulsifier (E 472e), Thickener (Guar Gum), Herbs and Spices, Garlic, Acidity Regulator (E 341), Smoke Flavouring, Garlic Powder, Acid (Citric Acid), Flour Treatment Agent (Ascorbic Acid), Flavouring, Colour (Beta-Carotene)
Let’s compare with the Chicago Town Chicken and Bacon Melt takeaway style frozen pizza ingredients:
Wheat Flour (with Calcium, Iron, Thiamin (B1), Niacin (B3)), Tomato Puree, Mozzarella Cheese (10%), Water, Roast Chicken Breast (5.5%) (Chicken Breast, Brown Sugar, Vegetable Oil (Sunflower), Corn Flour, Modified Maize Starch, Salt, Onion Powder, Garlic Powder, Flavouring, Stabilisers (Diphosphates, Triphosphates), Dextrose), Streaky Bacon (5%) (Pork, Salt, Antioxidants (Extracts of Rosemary, Sodium Ascorbate), Stabiliser (Diphosphates), Preservative (sodium Nitrite)), Vegetable Oils (Palm, Sunflower), Mature Cheddar (2.5%), Yeast, Sugar, Salt, Modified Potato Starch, Barley Malt Extract, Emulsifier (E 472e), Thickener (Guar Gum), Garlic, Herbs and Spices, Acidity Regulator (E 341), Flour Treatment Agent (Ascorbic Acid), Flavouring, Colour (Beta-Carotene)
(Assumedly the processed soy used to raise the chicken and pork is not listed in the ingredients)
I’m trying to figure out what it is about the plant-based one which would possibly make it so much more worthy of comment than the meat one? It’s the jackfruit?
its interesting, and i'm hopeful its the future. My OH is vegi, so most stuff we eat is vegi. Quorn chilli is fine, but its not beef. If a product can replace the "beef" flavor without the impact of growing a cow (on both the environment and the cow) then i'm onboard.
i tend to eat very little meat, but when i do, once in a blue mooon i try go higher welfare, or at the very least British grown (not due to any patriotic duty, just because our welfare standards are higher than others (i think))
I bought a chicken a few months ago, how can you buy a whole chicken for less than 3 quid! 'sgusten. even a fiver seemed far too cheep (budum) to me.
Having said that, i wouldn't want this to move forward and mean we only ate the finest steaks of "real meat".
the whole carcass should be used, and if that means pressure washing the remenants off to mulch up into sausage rolls, then thats fine by me.
I wish we had a better understanding of where our food comes from.
Much like we have the health guides on food, You could put a QR code on every packet, that takes you to a website that details the process involved in making that food. From the source of the raw materials provided to farms, through the animals life, right through to plate.
I imagine that would be as riveting and well utilized as that government website that outlined where your taxes end up.
Quorn chilli is fine
bleughy! Here, you can thank me later
(It freezes and reheats fine and (like all chillies) tastes even better the day after cooking)
. If a product can replace the “beef” flavor without the impact of growing a cow
I bought a chicken a few months ago, how can you buy a whole chicken for less than 3 quid!
Indeed. I remember as a kid a roast chicken on Sunday was a very special treat. My butcher bought chickens are several quid more but at least they taste of chicken.
