Ds1... Last comment is very true. Well said.
Thanks everyone. Really intersting comments. Apologies to those who thought its an old chesnut.
Gw... No need to tell me to f off, i asked for debate not contension.
Ianv... Theres a kid who rides in front of their mother every morning sans helmet on the pavement who scares the crumbs out of me. I drive super slow past them, others don't.
Poly... As per my earlier post. Yes i did survive until the 90's but I would probably not be here in this capacity if at all but for a helmet.
I wasn't telling you to "**** off" Gav, I'm saying "**** off" to the idea that "Schools school should insist on compulsory helmets", they are already pro helmets when bikes are involved within School, it's nothing to do with them outwith tho.
Poly - how exactly can kids be prosecuted for riding on the pavement? genuine question.
I find it a little odd when an adult says they won't ride a bike at all without wearing a helmet. are these peoples balance and judgement when on a bike really so bad that they feel they're risking injury anymore than if they were walking along that quiet road or bridleway etc? or is it they're so rad they're pushing their boundaries every second of every ride?
If you really feel scared for the kid's safety why don't you pull over one morning and share your concern with the mother?Ianv... Theres a kid who rides in front of their mother every morning sans helmet on the pavement who scares the crumbs out of me. I drive super slow past them, others don't
I often see kids with trad polysytrene helmets dangling but not pisspots. I wonder why parents don't get the kids those. Well I don't wonder really, but they are much more practical, cool and longer lasting especially for 11 year old with bmx bikes. what would you wear, that or a coconut from tescos.
I;m not even going to start on the pro'sand cons of helemts. Pointless argument that should be relegated to its own section of the forum 😀
I do think that the non-parents should poke off and let the parents take responsibility for the bahaviour of their children. Your view on whether my kid should wear a helmet or not has as little to do with you as the colour of clothes I dress them in. Save your anti-helmet stance for another thread.
OS - have you spoken to the school about it? I have seen schools that insist if the kids are bringing bikes onto school premises that they wear a helmet - so it may well be a local issue.
have you spoken to the school about it?
no, hence this thread. before fring off mr.angry letters i wanted to gauge whether my view was rational or no. and having read/mulled it over some more i am beginning to think that active education, encouragement and reward (they already get rewards for cycling in) to wear is better than a blanket compulsory stance that may limit participation.
thats it, i'm off surfing!
Every one should observe [url= http://www.cyclingmobility.com/cycling-health-and-safety/ ] cycling safety [/url]!Cycling without helmet is very dangerous, all parents must understand that!
belonthium - MemberCycling without helmet is very dangerous
Really 🙄
Surely it's down to parents to persuade their children to wear helmets if that is what they think is best for them, nothing at all to do with the school.
and for what its worth. Cycling without a helmet is not "very dangerous".
I had a fall last year and broke my collarbone and smacked the side of my heard on the ground, not wearing a helmt. It took a several weeks for the swelling to go down and several months for the pain to go when I tried to open my jaw fully.
I have smacked my head on the ground several times whilst wearing a helmet, and probably harder, and not had any of these issues.
Enough evidence for me...
I won't bore people any further on my views on helmets as they have been documented quite well in other threads. One thing I will say is that although I believe like most that wearing a helmet should be a choice not a law, children should be actively encouraged to wear helmets, and IMPO parents who don't make their kids wear helmets are irresponsible.
The issue of rotational injuries does not really come into it with children like it could with adults as they are travelling at much slower speeds, and if you look at the type of accident a child is likely to suffer it is the low speed, unbalanced fall to the side where they have a serious risk of an impact onto a protruding object like the corner of a wall, kerb-stone as well as just a uniform impact onto the pavement where you are not only concerned about impact injuries but also about penetration. In these circumstances don't hesitate to understand the level of protection a well fitted helmet offers your child.
unless I reckon there is a risk of him crashing, and he is not going to do that on his way to school.Can you let me know when/where I will have an accident next as i find them a bit diificult to predict
So do you were protective gear all the time then? After all, you never know what might happen.
Each to their own then I suppose. Like I said before it depends how and where you're riding.
GW's 'rad' statement is a bit of a stupid statement in my opinion. Sometimes I ride super steady for most of the ride then want to push it for a couple of minutes at which point, because I can't magic up a helmet out of thin air I am glad I put it on to begin with.
I mean what's the argument for not wearing one?? Looking uncool? I feel for you such people and don't feel you should be treated if and when it happens. Good luck to you, it's true, you might get away with it.
As for the 'used to ride to school and I'm still alive statements', me too. Only 15 or so years ago but how busy have the roads got and how many more distractions (sat navs, ipods etc) are there for drivers now? Not to mention how noiseless and insulated even basic cars have got and the fact that most have air-con only amplifies the 'bubble'. People don't rely on common sense now as they used to in most areas of life, they spend more time looking at their speedo than the road. Living to the rulebook.
Each to their own. I'll be wearing mine.
Why do I feel like this statement has been made a few times before I joined this site.
Guess there's no 'rulebook' answer, only common sense.
"IMPO parents who don't make their kids wear helmets are irresponsible"
turn your head away now before you have a heartattack!
[url= http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5204/5320211965_11d438d0d6.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/37621241@N05/5320211965/ ]IMG_2675[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/37621241@N05/ ]ianvincent[/url], on Flickr
However, when the need arises:
[url= http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4091/4991137076_219498c7c4.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/37621241@N05/4991137076/ ]felix valnord[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/37621241@N05/ ]ianvincent[/url], on Flickr
There is a time and place for everything and being overly protective means your son/daughter will end up being the office health and safety bore in a future life.
As for the 'used to ride to school and I'm still alive statements', me too. Only 15 or so years ago but how busy have the roads got and how many more distractions (sat navs, ipods etc) are there for drivers now? Not to mention how noiseless and insulated even basic cars have got and the fact that most have air-con only amplifies the 'bubble'. People don't rely on common sense now as they used to in most areas of life, they spend more time looking at their speedo than the road. Living to the rulebook.
This is true, but I think that just making the people on the receiving end suit up and get ready to be ****tted is not the right approach. Every helmet enforcement case like this is a step down that road rather than addressing the actual problem and that's a large part of why I personally don't like them.
MrSalmon I'll admit that's one argument against I'd not considered.
I've had a motorbike crash and been laid in the road with people looking at me like I was just a 'type'. There's a disconnection with a suited up motorcyclist as if there's not a human being under the leathers and lid. Suppose the fact that someone looks more fragile might make people take more care when passing or look at this in a different light.
I don't want it made the law. This would be very bad as it would add another page to the Dummies Rulebook for Life
Poly - how exactly can kids be prosecuted for riding on the pavement? genuine question.
[b]GW[/b] - I'm not sure which of these questions you are asking:
(1) Is it illegal for a child to ride a bike on the pavement
(2) How would a prosecution happen for such an offence
So I'll try to answer both, in my laymans understanding. Before I do, I'll reiterate that I actually don't have a problem with children riding bikes sensibly on the pavement (and possibly even adults) where its likely to be safer than on the road (its not always, motorists are usually predictable - pedestrians are not!). So without diverting the thread off course and into the rights or wrongs of pavement riding, I thought I'd address the factual information. It worth noting that whilst pavement riding is illegal, prosecutions are rare. Prosecutions for children riding on pavements will be even rarer still - and I've certainly seen teenagers and adults riding past police without even a comment.
(1) [i]Is riding on the pavement illegal?[/i] Firstly there are subtle distinctions about what we actually mean by a pavement, but if we are talking about a footway immediately adjacent to the carriageway then it is illegal to ride a bike under there which the Highway code identifies as being illegal - HA 1835 sect 72 & R(S)A 1984, sect 129.
(2) [i]If my kids are breaking the law - how can they be prosecuted?
[/i] Firstly it will depend on their age. If they are below the age of criminal responsibility (10 in England and Wales, 12? in Scotland) they won't be - although a pedantic copper might argue you were "willfully leading them" if you were there. If they are over that age then they could in theory be prosecuted with a fine of up to £500! In reality on the rare occasions adults are stopped for this it is usually dealt with as a £30 fixed penalty notice, however I'm not sure if these have an age limit (some offences seem to? but e.g. graffiti doesn't). As I've said it is normally overlooked - but I guess if they ride into someone, particularly if it happens to be a copper/local Councillor/the copper's mum etc then you might not get away with it!
I think I read somewhere that toddlers bikes (pre-school age - based on wheel size) aren't considered to be bikes in law. I can't find that.
I think I read somewhere that toddlers bikes (pre-school age - based on wheel size) aren't considered to be bikes in law. I can't find that.
Could be, as they're often sold with only on brake which is illegal.
it could be a kids face next time.
ianv - you are clearly an irresponsible parent - you've allowed your son to get better skills than me!
billysugger - your perception of driver stupidity and your risk may have increased in that 15 years but the accident statistics don't match up with it. The traffic stats are also showing a slight drop in the last 12 months, even at its peak the increase was only about 25% more traffic than 15 yrs ago.
phil - what about cats?
[img] 
[/img]
miketually - are you sure? I think you'll find its not illegal to sell a bike with only a single (front) brake. EDIT - I think you may be looking at "adult bikes" (seat height > 635mm). I think there are separate rules for kids bikes and then "toddler" bikes/scooters etc are exempt...
miketually - are you sure?
No. Or overly bothered 🙂
Seat height makes more sense that wheel size for deciding whether a bike is an adult's or not, though may give dwarfs the freedom to ride on pavements.
bravohotel8er - Memberand so it begins.
OK so since TJ's forbidden from pointing out the bleeding obvious, can I? The numbers just don't support mandatory helmet use. It's a completely disproportionate response. Understandably an emotive one but that's not a good argument in favour.
I think one of the reasons people tend to go directly to compulsion rather than education, is that it's so difficult to make a compelling argument for helmet use. "Wear a helmet kids, we can't prove it works to any extent, but it's common sense innit?" We tell smokers that smoking is bad for you and we hold up evidence, we don't do that with cycle helmets because of the lack of compelling evidence.
As for schools- enough schools have anti-cycling attitudes already without adding another difficulty to the mix. If there's energy to be spent on the subject it should be going towards more cycle friendly schools, more cycling training, more cyclist awareness.
ajc - MemberWhy do people always talk about death or brain damage with the helmet debate. Isn't it enough that even a slow speed bump on the head really hurts without a helmet but often doesn't with one.
That's why I always wear one tbh, it's good enough reason for me- the dent I put in the side of my Flux in France wouldn't have killed me but it'd probably have spoiled my day and maybe my week, that's good value. But, that's no reason to try and force it on other people.
And PS the responses to TJ in this thread are bloody despicable.
I have to say I don't really give a toss about statistics - just my kids safety!
It is easy to fall of and 99% of the time they'll be fine but an avoidable head injury is just that with a decent helmet.
Who rides off road with out a helmet?
As for mandatory helmet use - I don't support the idea. Its up to individuals and I look after my kids and what other people do is there business.
But if we want to be pedantic ****ts about it most bicycle helmets will do naff all for your head if you are in a 25+mph collision. You'll be wanting a motorcycle helmet for that.
I think people should try and get in their heads that [b]appropriate[/b][u] protection is required for the activity being carried out.
You can all argue appropriate out between you, but a 100Km on the tourer on the backroads at a moderate pace won't see me with a helmet on, but nailing it offroad where the chances of an off are much much higher will see me with one on.
This brainwashing that seems to be going on that cycling without a helmet is inherently unsafe needs to stop and people should be encouraged to consider the risks and take responsibility for their own safety.
Wear a helmet kids, we can't prove it works to any extent, but it's common sense innit?"
the problem here is the word proof.
We can porve that wearing a helmet does protect your head from injury it is really easy. Headbut a wall with a helmet on really hard and then headbut one without let me know which hurt the most.
The broader issue is that the introduction of compulsion does not seem to reduce overall injury rates and the reasons for this are not quite as simple as going see helmets dont work.
For example if you wear a helmet and dont get injured as a result you dont tend to contact the hospital to tell them this. Those people "saved" by helemt use are therefore not in the statistics we then analyse.
It is difficult to "prove" a helmet worked.
take responsibility for their own safety
all my road crashes have been as a result of someone hitting me so it was not my fault how would you like me to take responsibility for my won safety here? Is it impossible for someone else to do something stupid and unpredictable resulting in my injury?
I can be [b]fairy confident[/b] that my son will not crash riding along the pavement on the way to school, therefore no helmet required
My point was you cannot be certain which is a fairly self evident truth.
I can be fairly confident I wont crash for 99.99% of my rides as well unfortunately I cannot predict where or when that 0.01% will occur or how bad it will be. If you dont crash you are either not trying hard enough or dont commute enough.
My kids have never banged their head while riding or falling off their bikes. They regularly come home from school with "I banged my head" stickers.
Ergo, they should wear helmets at playtime at school but not while riding their bikes.
I've never hit my head while riding my bike but I gave it a right crack when in the back of a transit van.
Ergo, I should wear a helmet when in the back of a van, but not while riding my bike.
re;
small bikes having one brake.
a bicycle which has a fixed wheel only needs a front brake to comply with the law.
many (really small) kids bikes only have a front brake, but all the ones ive ever seen like that have a fixed wheel.
We've had kids bikes with one brake and a freewheel.
Thanks Poly, it was (2) I was asking. and that's what I thought 😉
Junkyard - Member
If you [b]do[/b][s]nt[/s] crash you are either not trying hard enough or dont [s]commute[/s] [b]commit[/b] enough
fixed that for ya 😉
😆
Clever
IanV's kid looks cool as **** in both pictures.
as does TJs cat 😉
"I can be fairly confident I wont crash for 99.99% of my rides as well unfortunately I cannot predict where or when that 0.01% will occur or how bad it will be. If you dont crash you are either not trying hard enough or dont commute enough"
I have ridden a 25-30mile commute 4-5 days a week for the last 7 years sans helmet.The one accident I had left me with a trashed shoulder and a fractured finger. Does this mean that I should wear body armour and iron man gloves just in case it happens again? If my son was stopping by the local jump spot to try and land a tail whip or something, I would encourage him to wear a helmet however, as he is only riding a mile or so along a pathway I see no potential for disaster and therefore do see the need for one.
Ah, now today I saw something that does annoy me- family out riding, dad telling kid "Put your helmet on or you're not going", was dad wearing one, no. If you're going to boss your kids around, lead by example too, "Do as I say not as I do" is a crap way to act IMO.
Junkyard - Member"For example if you wear a helmet and dont get injured as a result you dont tend to contact the hospital to tell them this. Those people "saved" by helemt use are therefore not in the statistics we then analyse."
Of course. The counter to that is that if you just walked away, in all likelihood it wasn't because of the helmet- they reduce injury * and that does mean that some minor injuries get reduced to nothing, but a minor concussion would tend to get reduced to a pretty nasty headache, bit of dizziness and confusion- ie stuff that people still tend to go to hospital about anyway, to get checked out.
(* IMO they reduce injury, etc etc)
Ah, now today I saw something that does annoy me- family out riding, dad telling kid "Put your helmet on or you're not going", was dad wearing one, no. If you're going to boss your kids around, lead by example too, "Do as I say not as I do" is a crap way to act IMO
The dad has more experience riding a bike than the child, so is less likely to fall off.
When my kids were younger, I didn't wear a nappy just because they had accidents.
Amusing but bad analogy.
I have more experience driving a car [therefore less likely to crash] than a 20 year old can I forgo a seatbelt?Speed limits?
Northwind I agreewith you FWIW
I have more experience driving a car [therefore less likely to crash] than a 20 year old can I forgo a seatbelt?Speed limits?
If you were talking about motorbikes, there are limits on the types of motorbike you can ride below certain age/experience levels. Same with flying planes. Could be argued that new drivers should be limited to driving unmodified, low-powered cars until they're over-21 and have at least a couple of years experience driving.
Can certainly be argued that the point at which kids need more protection is different to adults. I don't let my kids carry heavy things up and down stairs, and make them hold the bannister, but I do the opposite. I didn't let my daughter get out of her depth in the swimming pool today, though I'd have been happy to do so myself.
Kids need more protection than adults. I don't see why wearing a helmet on a bike is an exception to this.
My lad wears a helmet every time he rides his bike.
He also tells me off if I ride without one, even from the back gate to the shed.
If he falls off and bangs his head then hopefully it won't hurt him as much.
That's why I wear one too.
It's our choice (he's 4 so I've chosen for him) and it's a simple one.
I hope he'll always wear one but I won't force him when he's older...but I'll take his wheels off and hide them until he does 🙂
[b]Ah, now today I saw something that does annoy me- family out riding, dad telling kid "Put your helmet on or you're not going", was dad wearing one, no. If you're going to boss your kids around, lead by example too, "Do as I say not as I do" is a crap way to act IMO[/b]
The dad has more experience riding a bike than the child, so is less likely to fall off.When my kids were younger, I didn't wear a nappy just because they had accidents.
miketually totally missing the point. When they're in nappies, they don't need persuading to wear one (or at least whether you're wearing one or not is irrelevant). The likelihood of dad falling off is irrelevant - all he's wearing one for is to set a good example.
[IMG] 
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Me and mini-aracer today. I'm not going to fall in out of one of those, and would happily paddle one on my own without a PFD, but have to set an example.
I should point out I'm far from being a helmet nazi, and very anti-compulsion. My reaction to the situation of the OP would be "good, kids riding to school", but if you're going to tell your kid to wear a bit of safety gear, don't put yourself in the situation of having to explain why you're not.
Ah, now today I saw something that does annoy me- family out riding, dad telling kid "Put your helmet on or you're not going", was dad wearing one, no. If you're going to boss your kids around, lead by example too, "Do as I say not as I do" is a crap way to act IMO.
no no no no... don't think you have kids do you? so i'll be gentle with my reply
I never wear a helmet when I'm riding with kids. Being a responsible adult with exparience and common sense on my side the kids wear helmets if and when I deem it appropriate.
miketually totally missing the point. When they're in nappies, they don't need persuading to wear one (or at least whether you're wearing one or not is irrelevant). The likelihood of dad falling off is irrelevant - all he's wearing one for is to set a good example.
What is the point? Teaching them that cycling is an everyday, safe activity? One which can be done wearing normal clothing and without special equipment?
Me and mini-aracer today. I'm not going to fall in out of one of those, and would happily paddle one on my own without a PFD, but have to set an example.
What if you bang your head when falling out of the canoe?
