[Closed] just been properly screwed over - employment content

Legal advice would be my recommendation. Awful situation to be in 🙁

I don't see that they have done anything outside the law though... they have 'an informal arrangement', but it is Y who have withdrawn the offer - they are perfectly within their rights to do this for whatever reason they choose.

🙁

why did you name the other company? doh!

1) how could 'Y' not have been aware of who you worked for- did you not submit a cv?

2) the person who made the job offer may not have been aware of the 'non-poachign agreement'

3) even if you go back to 'Y' they're unlikely to issue an offer now.

4) they cannot stop you workign for 'Y' as that's restraint of trade. 'Y' don't have to employ you though.

5) get another job with 'Z' sharpish.

Words fail me. What made you think it was a good idea to tell your employer who the offer came from?

That's really shocking. Like said above, get legal advice- did nobody look at your cv?

Oh, and what to do after that? - go contracting- more money, less shit.

learn from it. I doubt there is anything much you can do - the mistake was to tell your current company who the new job offer was with.

they of course are telling porkies - the people who offered you the job unless you hid your current employer

I'd be thinking long and hard about quitting

Just find another job that isn't connected to your current one.

Doesn't sound like Company X will ever give you a pay rise and it sounds like your worth is 55% more to at least one other company so just go elsewhere.

Y is gone -forget about it, you shot yourself in the foot there. Stay at X whilst looking for alternative employment, which sounds feasible given your experience with Y. Forget legal avenues - even if you have a case, its far too stressful.

Why you would even contemplate staying at X in the first place is beyond me. They behave badly and you take it - perhaps you deserve each other? Maybe consider contract work if your are in the IT field - try a few things to find out that there is life outside of X!

We were previously unaware of who you worked for, and have decided to withdraw our offer... blah blah".

Sounds to me like an unfair restriction on trade. Proving it might be a different matter.

they are perfectly within their rights to do this for whatever reason they choose.

I doubt that they can withdraw an offer for [i]any[/i] reason, they can't withdraw an offer on the basis of someones gender, race or sexual orientation for example. Proper legal advice would be your best bet as would getting a new job. Next time don't try to wangle a counter offer just resign and keep schtum about where you are going.

Feel for you (I was in a similar situation) but I didn't name any other companies or told them of any offers. I simply stated to my (then new) boss that my responsibilities were well above my pay grade and I was actively seeking employment outside the company. It got sorted, but to be honest it sounds like you're working for a bunch of t*ssers.

'Previously unaware..' I take it they read your CV?? Sound just as bad.

Plenty of work out there (I presume you're a programmer) - find something else, move on. I don't think fighting the tide there will get you anything other than additional stress.

minimal work and maximal new job seeking sounds like the way forward to me

and yup, after the way they have treated you why did you even bother trying to haggle with X? Where you trying to get 60%? If you were then you just played a bad hand and lost!

You also need to dig out your contract and check about working for competitors within X months. Although I do know of cases were the contract doesnt stand if you work in a field that is quite restricted and you need to make a living.

offered me a job for [b]55% more pay[/b], plus they will pay the relocation expenses incurred last month.

[img] [/img]

I don't particularly dislike my company

OK, not going to get sanctimonious about what I'd have done differently. We all have different situations.

I hadn't formally accepted the job offer, because I was waiting for some HR signoff on the relocation package they were offering

This has probably done you as far as any breach of contract claim against company Y. I suspect that, if you were still, as you say, in negotiations on package, the contract hadn't been fully formed.

Basically, someone in X has phoned someone in Y and leaned on them to withdraw the offer.

You're probably into quite a tight and technical area of employment law here - seeking advice from a decent employment lawyer (ie at a proper, not high street, law firm) will give you an answer. It may be that you need to walk away and claim some sort of constructive dismissal.

I wonder also if there's some sort of tortious claim you might bring in damages for the loss of opportunity you would have had if you'd been in a position to formally accept the other role. This feels a bit more nebulous, and so would need some sensible legal advice from a commercial litigator. Definitely way outside my sphere.

My advice: save spending money on legal fees. Find another job with someone else. Bite their hand off.

Good luck.

EDIT: if they are competitors, then there may well be something more serious in their actions in terms of anti-competitive behaviour. Might be worth asking a competition lawyer if there's an angle you can run here. Won't get you anything, but might drop X and Y in the s--t.

LEAVE YOUR CURRENT JOB

then get back to the other firm, tell them u don't work for anyone and are they still interested. If not, get a job with someone else.

Despite hinting at it, they haven't paid me any relocation expenses

Have you thought of an assertiveness course?

Seriously, tell them, don't hint

I hadn't[b] formally [/b]accepted the job offer, because I was waiting for some HR signoff on the relocation package they were offering.

Had you indicated to them at all that you were accepting the offer? Had they actually offered you the job, or was it conditional on something else (satisfactory references perhaps?)

good stuff here:

http://www.xperthr.co.uk/faqs/topics/2,16/making-job-offers.aspx?articleid=57511&mode=open#57511

Get a solicitor!

You also need to dig out your contract and check about working for competitors within X months. Although I do know of cases were the contract doesnt stand if you work in a field that is quite restricted and you need to make a living.

A HR manager once told me that clause, and the pay back training costs within x years of a course, are totally unenforceable legally, but most companies put it in the contract and get away with it because it is so rarely challenged by a leaving employee.

quit and make it clear you have had enough and going travelling....

change your name

Call up Y... 😀

Time for a new job, and next time don't tell them who you are going too.

Phone the HR director at the company who offered you a job.

Tell them you are leaving whatever happens and that there must be a way of securing employment with them as you'll only be going elsewhere, work it out and do it.

J

Sounds like rather than genuinely wanting to take the new job at Y you were using it as leverage to get more pay & expenses from your current job.

This suggests you'd either prefer to work at company X despite it's shortcomings, or perhaps you are anxious about moving jobs for some reason.

Words fail me. What made you think it was a good idea to tell your employer who the offer came from?

This.

....but sympathy for the shit situation.

Hindsight is 20:20 and all that. I should have kept quiet.

Don't think I can keep working for them now though. I will be definitely be looking for other jobs; the trouble is that most of the big players in this town are in on the same agreement.

I never thought they would actually phone up and get them to cancel my offer!

Can't really afford to walk at the moment - got a new, expensive mortgage to pay for.

As for assertiveness and telling people to pay me more; this isn't like working in a small company. You are hard pressed to find anyone go will take responsibility for anything, let alone pay and benefits.

🙁

Rule 1 of job hunting - do not tell your current employer you are even thinking about it.

Informing your current employer X of a job offer from company Y - spectacular FAIL!

A HR manager once told me that clause, and the pay back training costs within x years of a course, are totally unenforceable legally

Basically bollox. But what would you expect from a barrack room employment lawyer....

the trouble is that most of the big players in this town are in on the same agreement.

Don't tell them the same thing..!

My cousin ended up in pretty much exactly the same position last year. Only slightly worse. He accepted the job with Y and resigned from X.

X then found out that he was going to Y and pointed out that contractually (read that small print) he was forbidden to do so. He sought legal advice and called their bluff. Never underestimate how malicious HR departments and management can be - and yours sound very similar. BE VERY CAREFUL!

X sued him for breech of contract. Y then immediately revoked their offer. He went to court, racked up a stack of legal fees, and lost. All in, it cost him about 20 grand including damages paid to X (again, all in the small print), and he didn't work for 6 months. Nearly went mad due to the stress.

Get some proper legal advice before you do anything!!! There will be people a lot more devious than you will have drawn up that employment contract. Be careful. Oh... and good luck

As for assertiveness and telling people to pay me more

I was referring to the relocation expenses they owe you not trying to get a raise

If you approached them it's not poaching pick up the phone and have a word. I'd have thought you could talk your way out of this. However your spectacular lack of discretion may be why they have withdrawn the offer.

update:

one of the senior people who I met with this morning has requested a meeting with me at 3 because he has spoken to someone even higher up and has some feedback for me.

Its an employers market - stay where you are, keep your mouth shut and look for a new job.

Learn from it - dont make the same mistake again. No one is that special that they can negotiate a pay rise like you tried.

Dont forget that now your employer knows your not happy they wont view you as a long term employee worth investing in.

Fingers crossed then.

[i]has some feedback for me[/i]

let's hope it's not full and frank feedback.

if I made somone an offer and found out they'd just used it to weedle more money out of their current employer I'd probably be thinking if I wanted them to work for me, regardless of any contact I had with their current company.

I'd be walking out of there quick smart.

Dont forget that now your employer knows your not happy they wont view you as a long term employee worth investing in.

Sounds like no change in how they currently view him.

gulp. Awaits the "unemployed, advice?" thread....

My pay is rubbish (compared to my peers and the market as a whole it is about 30-40% adrift).

I have been complaining about pay for years, and have been through every process possible to get a rise. No joy

You have my sympathy BTW but if you are that good at your job, do everything you can, as suggested above, to go to the job you have been offered.

Wonders if this thread was started on a company computer while not wearing a tin foil hat.

update:

he has spoken to someone even higher up and has some feedback for me.

If you don't jump, you'll be pushed.

some feedback for me.

😯 😕

erm.... I hate to say this, but I'd get your desk cleared now. Save you doing it at half three with a security guard stood behind you

Was going to chip in but it's all been said up there ^^^^ . Will tune back in after 3 to see what the 'feedback' was ... good luck methinks. 😯

If you don't jump, you'll be pushed.

That would surely constitute unfair dismissal would it not? Looking for another job isn't a sackable offence, I'd have been sacked loads of times if it were.

pretty sure they won't sack me. for starters they have no grounds to do so, and why the hell would they stop me being recruited if they're just going to can me.

I suspect the 'news' will be that they will pay my relocation, but they have consistently said that I won't know what I'm getting for my promotion until everyone's pay reviews are announced at the end of the month.

I know I should have given up on them earlier, but everything else about the company (except pay) has been good. I enjoy the work, like the people (those around me, not management), have a relaxed work atmosphere (t-shirt and jeans) and can work flexible hours (I work early to early, so I'm home by 5pm).

In answer to some comments before, yes I was going for the job offer as a bargaining point, rather than specifically wanting the job. This is established in the company as a way to get them to take your pay requests seriously. It was only once they started threatening me and behaving so poorly that I decided I wanted to get shot of them.

Dave

[i]why the hell would they stop me being recruited if they're just going to can me.[/i]

because they don't want a competitor to gain a commercial advantage but don't trust you anymore?

pretty sure they won't sack me. for starters they have no grounds to do so

Thats extremely [s]naive[/s] trusting of you

15 minute count down!

In answer to some comments before, yes I was going for the job offer as a bargaining point, rather than specifically wanting the job. This is established in the company as a way to get them to take your pay requests seriously. It was only once they started threatening me and behaving so poorly that I decided I wanted to get shot of them.

If it's an 'established method of getting the company to take your pay requests seriously' then how have previous applicants got around the cartel issue?

I'm on tenderhooks.

This will be good.

I'm on [s]tenderhooks[/s].

tenterhooks

FTFY 😉

15 minute count down!

This will be good.

Or it'll be a tragedy for a fellow forum member.

Good luck with the outcome alfa. Sorry to hear about this travesty.

I really really hope we're all wrong 🙁

here is a good article on [url= http://www.ere.net/2011/05/24/why-you-and-your-candidates-should-never-accept-a-counteroffer/ ]why you should never accept or court a counter offer[/url]

alfabus, be careful you’ve probably got colleagues on here. If you work for a big company you can always go for the option of creating a nuisance of yourself to the point where they ask you to leave and give you a nice big wedge to walk quietly (compromise agreement).

Anything....? I'm distracted now and need to know... 😐

*optimist head*

Hope he gets his pay rise...

or at least remembered to lube up before the meeting...

Regarding the breach of contract thing - my mrs got some legal advice when her employer wanted to change her contract. The advice was that if a notice period is such that no competitor would ever offer you a job, then that would not be enforceable because it's an unreasonable restraint of trade. But you'd have to prove it!

the two companies work for the same customer and have an anti-poaching agreement

I'm not gloating and I hope he gets a good outcome, when I said good I meant distracting. I'm not such a bastard as to wish the guy the worst. And I've learned something too this is a thread that just keeps giving.

the two companies work for the same customer and have an anti-poaching agreement

I suspect that's precisely what they [b]don't[/b] have. You'd have to be pretty brave to enter into an agreement that would likely be voided on public policy grounds.

I can't see [thankfully] a good reason to sack him

Anyway, there's usually a few procedures to follow before they get to that stage

Well he is still in the meeting so that is good news......could have stormed or been kicked out mind 🙁

This will be one muppet manager not a company conspiracy. Many big IT companies do this, rely on staff inertia and don’t keep peoples pay in line with the market. Many people move around every 2-5 years in order to keep salary at the market level, some leave and come back again. I don’t know many people who have had a pay rise in the last 4 years without moving.
I’ve seen staff get poached by the client whom we have an anti-poaching agreement with and the company just lets them go. Not seen anything like this happen with a competitor though.

In my experience the counter offer always comes after the letter of resignation.

Lessoned learnt for future hopefully. Sign new contract, hand in resignation, then consider any counter or counter-counter offers.

Fingers crossed for alpha...

I'm back.

Not much to report I'm afraid - he basically gave me a sneak peak at what is in store for me in the pay review at the end of the month - it amounts to a 13% pay rise.

Not sure if I mentioned this before, but last month a friend of mine joined the company at the 'career level' below me (effectively joining as what I was prior to my promotion). He is paid 33% more than me. For them to suggest that a 13% pay rise is sufficient to get me to market rate is laughable.

Oh, and they said they'll try and push through the relocation expenses... woop de ****ing doo.

I have just started uploading my CV to loads of recruitment sites.

Dave

Phew! You need to get the **** out of Dodge fella. But you know this already

Have you pointed out your salary is way off market rate?

Have you actually gone to your manager with a strong case as to why you deserve a pay rise?

Seems odd that new vacancies (which I assume you had the right to apply for) can be advertised at such a higher rate.

Well you should still call the firm that withdrew the offer and have a chat with.

My advice is don't put your CV on line find a couple of agencies that specialise in what you do and work with them.

Been involved in IT management for a huge company for a while and this is absolutely typical. It's all about what you can negotiate when you first come through the door, as after that your potential for increases is, in my experience, extremely low. These mahoosive (and mostly American) companies are masters at minimising cost increases by imposing processes to specifically prevent managers from being able to award pay rises over & above stipulated (and typically crappy) amounts, usually dictated by a salary grade/performance calculation. I managed quite a few people a while back and there was very little correlation between job responsibility and level of pay. Sadly I have found that there are only ever two choices...lump it or move to another company.

Well, might be time for a truth pill - try and get some honest feedback on why what you think you are worth is so much more than what they think you are worth ??

Of course, the purity of the job market will tell you that.

Good luck !

chin up mate

the good news is that you have the credentials to go out and get a job with a better package than you are on now.

Keep your head down and get on jobserve then move when you get the next offer.

last month a friend of mine joined the company at the 'career level' below me (effectively joining as what I was prior to my promotion). He is paid 33% more than me.

Good luck with the job hunt. FWIW a cousin of mine was in an almost identical situation to yourself 4 years ago and after a pitiful wage rise offer he told them to stuff it, took two weeks holiday and never went back. He is now earning nearly 4x the salary he was on. Ok he has had a couple of 'right place, right time' strokes of luck but it shows what can be achieved.

Similar last year. I enjoyed the work and the company, but the money was not where it should have been. At my appraisal I made it clear I needed the rise and that I felt underappreciated despite jumping through all the required hoops and doing my job and more. This was agree'd with "but our hands are tied by HR"... which is BS.

So... I walked out of the appraisal and fired the CV out... I made the decision to go, not in a hurry but to find the right thing. Two months later I handed in my notice and was asked "why are you leaving"... big company so the exit process was rather amusing! I know not to burn bridges thought but still I enjoyed the discomfort in the room.

Contracting for twice the money now and half the BS... life is great.

I've since heard that the chap who took over from me is a contractor earning what I am now... and that there has a been a shuffle amongst the managers who lost a lot of staff over a short period... *chuckle*

Look around - find the right thing and dive in... do the same in 3-5 years time.

wot pedalhead said. So true.