[Closed] just been assaulted

Woody - I pose the question out of interest and I am certainly not taking any moral high ground!! But I think we might find that the namby pamby fluffy cloud is actually the real world of the courts!!

At what point, would you stop people acting in this way, if at all?

TJ - railway byelaws:

[i]24. Enforcement
(2) Removal of persons
(i) Any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised person to be in breach of any of these Byelaws shall leave the railway immediately if asked to do so by an authorised person.
(ii) Any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised person to be in breach of any of these Byelaws and who fails to desist or leave when asked to do so by an authorised person may be removed from the railway by an authorised person using reasonable force. This right of removal is in addition to the imposition of any penalty for the breach of these Byelaws.
(iii) No person shall fail to carry out the instructions of an authorised person acting in accordance with powers given by these Byelaws or any other enactment.
[/i]

Sorry, that pretty much ends the discussion!

may be removed from the railway by [i][b]an authorised person[/b][/i] using reasonable force.

i think its possible that as nurses our understanding of assault it a much more sensitive definition than the average person on the street.

The missus is quite often slapped/punched/bitten by confused/disorientated/delirious patients. She's usually nimble enough to avoid it but every now and then she doesn't see it coming or just can't get out the way. 😕

I've proposed that the NHS should be allowed to use a tranquilliser dart fired from a blowpipe to knock such patients out before treating them, in the same way a vet might treat a lion.

But apparently that is against NICE guidelines (probably because the darts are too expensive).

[img] [/img]

may be removed from the railway by [b]an authorised person[/b] using reasonable force.

Who does the authorising?

The guard could have "authorised" the Big Man when he said "I need a hand" 😉

Z11 - thanks for that, interesting. So how do you read, "authorised person" - would that include the big guy, if he had been given the consent (my interpretation) of the guard? Or is it only an official employee?

i think its possible that as nurses our understanding of assault it a [b][i]much more[/i][/b] [b][i]sensitive [/i][/b]definition than the average person on the street.

This just perpetuates the notion that all male nurses are gay

the big guy, if he had been given the consent (my interpretation) of the guard

I'd be surprised if the guard were allowed to authorise people to use force. Be a bit like a sheriff, deputising people on the spot

This just perpetuates the notion that all male nurses are gay

While, for balance, TJ's dress sense and hair style proves otherwise 😉

😕

So TJ if you have also "assaulted" someone, should you not be disbarred from practicing law.

Only if convicted, presumably...

what language where they talking in?
I found it hard to follow.

Can he be convicted by the court of STW?

THM - see my previous comment

Regardless of whether the guard could "sub contract" the power (and bearing in mind we would not think twice about the legality of assisting a police officer who was using force to detain a suspect)

the other two powers would stand on their own:

[i]ii) exercising his own common law right and duty to intervene to prevent the commission of a crime (fare dodging) and
iii) exercising his additional common law right to prevent a breach of the peace.[/i]

By the way - the scrote himself:

(might have known he was a bloody student!)

200.

200.

200

200.
EDIT: Conclusive proof that if you repeat yourself enough you'll eventually be right.
[img] http://www.smileys4me.com/getsmiley.php?show=2143 [/img]

what language where they talking in?
I found it hard to follow.

It's English, but it is hard to follow once the 'big hitters' get here.

But I think we might find that the namby pamby fluffy cloud is actually the real world of the courts!!

The line between STW and reality gets more blurred each day..................

*hic!*

ii) exercising his own common law right and duty to intervene to prevent the commission of a crime (fare dodging) and

Taking your interpretation of this I could legally kill somone if I thought they were going to step on my toes

thought for the day:
train fair?

wow there's some shite spouted on this forum

Taking your interpretation of this I could legally kill somone if I thought they were going to step on my toes

You may laugh now Woody - but one day..........................

Yes TJ - thats what I'm saying, the logical extrapolation of someone being thrown off the train for not paying the fare is that you can kill someone for treading on your toes, absolutley, 100%, spot on, you got it 🙄

So the days of freebie tickets are done it seems- the internet/big guys and STW forums have sorted oot the numpties of this world. Not to say the vid has gone viral as well, so if any o youse scrotes out there are gettin ideas - BEWARE!

TJ, I think you must have missed my Question earlier.

When you said you had done a similar thing to the bloke in the video,

[u][b]Was it OK when you did it ?[/b] [/u]

(if not, doesn't banging on about this as much as you are, just make you look like an argumentative timewaster ?)

Zulu - according to you you have an absolute right to do anything you want to prevent a crime being committed.

that appears to be your justification for the big chap assaulting the scrote.

Please let me know what the difference is? Or do you agree it has to be reasonable force commensurate with the crime and proportionate to the risk?

In which case the big chap has committed assault - you cannot have it both ways

TJ, I think you must have missed my Question earlier.

When you said you had done a similar thing to the bloke in the video,
[b]
Was it OK when you did it ?[/b]

(if not, doesn't banging on about this as much as you are, just make you look like an argumentative timewaster ?)

TJ - Where did Z11 say that?

Neal - that would be for others to decide. I have been involved in a few situations like that because I will not stand idly by. I guess some would be seen as justified and some disproportionate.

Militant - on the preivous page - he completely ignores the need for the force used to be resonable and proportionate

Zulu-Eleven - Member
Regardless of whether the guard could "sub contract" the power (and bearing in mind we would not think twice about the legality of assisting a police officer who was using force to detain a suspect)

the other two powers would stand on their own:

ii) exercising his own common law right and duty to intervene to prevent the commission of a crime (fare dodging) and

So Zulu is claiming a crime of no violence - fare dodging it is OK to assault the criminal.

The crime has already been committed - you are not preventing it and there is no threat of violence here.

TandemJeremy - Member
Neal - that would be for others to decide. I have been involved in a few situations like that because I will not stand idly by. I guess some would be seen as justified and some disproportionate.

So you are quite happy to do the same thing yourself then.

But when someone else does it, you feel the need to argue about it online, to prove you know the law.

Even though you apparently don't respect it enough to actually obey it yourself 🙄

TJ - He quotes 'reasonable force' NOT 'absolute right to do anything you want'.

The force used was reasonable, the police would've probably maced him. And he's lying about having a proper ticket. He didn't.

Chuck Norris doesn't obey laws. They obey him.

Militant biker - but the big chap does not use reasonable or justifiable force, he is not preventing a crime ( as it has already been committed) nor is their any threat of violence to justify the use of force.

So Zulu is ignoring the need for the force to be reasonable. proportionate and commensurate.

If the big chap had left the scrote alone would there have been violence? No. the train would merely have been delayed further. Tran delays is no justification for the use of force

If the big chap had left the scrote would there have been violence? No. the train would merely have been delayed further.

yes. someone else would have smashed him for delaying the train and we may have had a less proportionate response.

No, I didn't say that did I TJ, you're being entirely disingenuous to suggest otherwise, its obvious to everyone here that reasonableness comes into it.

The crime has already been committed - you are not preventing it

i) he was still on the train, and had repeatedly refused to leave when lawfully requested to do so by a person enacted with the power to do so - clearly the only way of preventing the continuing commission of the crime (fare evasion) was to remove him from the train - ergo, the use of force was reasonable.

ii) clearly if the, fairly elderly, guard had tried to remove him, as he was lawfully empowered to do, there would have been a imminent significant breach of the peace - and there was also likely to be a breach of the peace if the train waited there for half an hour for the police - as such, again the use fo force was reasonable.

Don;t forget, just a few minutes ago TJ you were telling me that train guards had no power to use force, that was until I pointed you to the bye-laws that say they do 🙄

you're wrong - just accept it TJ!

TJ - FWIW, I'm not into debating the ins and outs of who did what to whom. What I'm getting at is that you've jumped from him quoting 'reasonable force' to him apparently justifying 'absolute right to do anything you want'. He hasn't said such a thing, as far as I can see.

As you complain when you feel people have attributed opinions to you, that you don't hold, I'd have expected better from you 🙂

Edited out a random extra 'put' in there... 😳

Taking a step back here...

Why was "No Fare" unable to use logic and human reasoning if he indeed had a valid ticket. Why swear and act like a numpty? Would you not ask other passengers for help if you indeed believe the guards eyesight was suspect. Least of all act like an adult and a human about it. If you don't have a ticket or money do the right thing and get off.

If I knew I was pushing my luck by not paying and got booted off like that then I wouldn't be too uspet.

One way or another MTFU 😀