[Closed] Julian Assange?

and twice in a day i find myself in accord with tj. 😯

but oleaginous (sp)? and jejune? is it the time of year when stw people are sleeping on the oed?

as for assange/manning. is it just me or does there seem something just a bit off that assange's bail, what was it, two hundred grand, is stumped up within days and yet wikileaks promised money to the manning defence fund (promised before the financial restrictions) and a mere $50000 has yet to surface. wikileaks not quite so forward about leaking their financial details on that one.

I do believe that diplomats should be able to speak freely in private memos with their home country and learning diplomatic tittle tatlle serves very little purpose.

I don't entirely disagree with that, but when the issue is, for example, the US Secretary of State involved in espionage in the UN, then I think we have a right to know what is being done.

Modern day hero, exposing exposing the dirt behind what many consider to be 'model countries'.

If the yankies put as much effort into hunting Bin Laden, as they have Assange, we would have been out of Afghanistan within a month of entering it...

I'd imagine EVERY country has stuff like this on diplomatic cables, a large number of them considerably worse.

"Righteous hero of the people or self serving git?"

That's not an XOR, he can be both at once. He interviewed very badly on R4 this morning - complete lack of skill.

Because of this I'm more inclined to think he's the genuine article.

jejune my ass(anage) !
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article684324.ece

Have a go at stealing the cables yourself...

[url= http://www.jeuxjeuxjeux.fr/jeu/ne+te+fais+pas+attraper/wikileaks.html ]Clicky[/url]

it's not easy!

Correct DrJ but is anyone really surprised that diplomats spy? Hardly news IMHO

Is it too early to say I'm incredibly bored with the whole thing and don't give flying, er, thingy about what happens to Julian Massage?

He's irritating, but I approve of the concept of wikileaks - I am also fairly convinced that the charges against him are trumped up.

This is an interesting take on it though - essentially, at least in America, all the revelations that have come out in the NY Times basically support US foreign policy.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=22389

And sorry but this is ridiculous:

Er, not we didn't. I clearly recall the following:
Sadam had at least had WMD
Had used WMD on the Kurds
Had already invaded Kuwait and Iran
Had obstructed UN inspectors ad infinitum

As it turns out, he was playing a poor game of brinkmanship bluff and double bluff and it cost him his life.

Here

Reports by the US Senate's committee on banking, housing and urban affairs -- which oversees American exports policy -- reveal that the US, under the successive administrations of Ronald Reagan and George Bush Snr, sold materials including anthrax, VX nerve gas, West Nile fever germs and botulism to Iraq right up until March 1992, as well as germs similar to tuberculosis and pneumonia. Other bacteria sold included brucella melitensis, which damages major organs, and clostridium perfringens, which causes gas gangrene.

Classified US Defence Department documents also seen by the Sunday Herald show that Britain sold Iraq the drug pralidoxine, an antidote to nerve gas, in March 1992, after the end of the Gulf war. Pralidoxine can be reverse engineered to create nerve gas.

The Senate committee's rep orts on 'US Chemical and Biological Warfare-Related Dual-Use Exports to Iraq', undertaken in 1992 in the wake of the Gulf war, give the date and destination of all US exports. The reports show, for example, that on May 2, 1986, two batches of bacillus anthracis -- the micro-organism that causes anthrax -- were shipped to the Iraqi Ministry of Higher Education, along with two batches of the bacterium clostridium botulinum, the agent that causes deadly botulism poisoning.

One batch each of salmonella and E coli were shipped to the Iraqi State Company for Drug Industries on August 31, 1987. Other shipments went from the US to the Iraq Atomic Energy Commission on July 11, 1988; the Department of Biology at the University of Basrah in November 1989; the Department of Microbiology at Baghdad University in June 1985; the Ministry of Health in April 1985 and Officers' City, a military complex in Baghdad, in March and April 1986.

The shipments to Iraq went on even after Saddam Hussein ordered the gassing of the Kurdish town of Halabja, in which at least 5000 men, women and children died. The atrocity, which shocked the world, took place in March 1988, but a month later the components and materials of weapons of mass destruction were continuing to arrive in Baghdad from the US.

http://www.rense.com/general29/wesold.htm

Yeah the guy is a bit of a nutter but the basic facts check out.

Also,

US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld helped Saddam Hussein build up his arsenal of deadly chemical and biological weapons, it was revealed last night.
As an envoy from President Reagan 19 years ago, he had a secret meeting with the Iraqi dictator and arranged enormous military assistance for his war with Iran.
The CIA had already warned that Iraq was using chemical weapons almost daily. But Mr Rumsfeld, at the time a successful executive in the pharmaceutical industry, still made it possible for Saddam to buy supplies from American firms.
They included viruses such as anthrax and bubonic plague, according to the Washington Post.
The extraordinary details have come to light because thousands of State Department documents dealing with the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war have just been declassified and released under the Freedom of Information Act.
At the very least, it is highly embarrassing for 70-year-old Mr Rumsfeld, who is the most powerful and vocal of all the hawks surrounding President Bush.
He bitterly condemns Saddam as a ruthless and brutal monster and frequently backs up his words by citing the use of the very weapons which it now appears he helped to supply.

Read more: http://www.****/news/artic l'e-153210/Rumsfeld-helped-Iraq-chemical-weapons.html#ixzz18lTxBrO8

And the much derided UN weapons inspectors - who were attacked mercilessly as ineffective by Blair etc - turned out to be completely right about Iraq having no WMDs by then.

You're being extremely 'jejune' if you really believe that WMDs was anything other than a convenient excuse.

can't be bothered to read all that.

Although light is the best disinfectant, if no exchange is private no one will ever say anything.

(yes, it's an exaggeration)

So it's always a balancing act about what should be public and what should not. And who can make that call? I don't know. But it certainly shouldn't be this fool. Neither troop movements nor diplomatic cables should have gone up on the site.

And how many women do you get to assault for free if you run a controversial media outlet?

And how many women do you get to assault for free if you run a controversial media outlet?

Did you bother reading the details of the case either? I really struggle to see where the 'assault' part comes into it.

theyEye

No doubt because you can't be bothered to read into it (you are a perfect citizen, behaving just as the powers want you to, well done) you seem to have missed quite a lot.

Troop movements? When did that get leaked?

As for women assaulted - do you think it is odd at all that both women continued to be host to Assange after the alleged incidents? Continued to hold parties for him? Or how about "Miss A" continuing to tweet about her association with him, but then trying to delete those posts once she found out about the other woman?

No doubt you can't be bothered to read this either

Regarding the leaked cables, they make an interesting study of US foreign policy thinking. In some cases they reveal that authorities have been out-and-out politiking the public.

The mission of Wikileaks to to expose this so that the public are better informed about the decision making their governments make. Clearly some information must remain secret to protect our people. But in general there is a tendency to overuse secrecy to hide political games. The protection of information is the responsibility of its users and in this the State Dept. has utterly failed and is humiliated. The responsibility of journalists like Wikileaks is to redact the material to prevent danger to individuals, which is happening.

This kind of journalism is a vital cornerstone of democracy, needed to keep governments accountable. While John Humphreys took Assange apart today, I think Wikileaks has revealed far more about the real politics that John has in his entire lifetime grilling politicians on the radio.

[b]It is a shame in a way that Assange is such a typical geek: clever, idealistic, liberal, ethical*, but extremely egotistical and irritating. Does he ride bikes perchance?[/b]

*assuming you think the sex charges are trumped up, which after looking at a few details, I do.

Is it too early to say I'm incredibly bored with the whole thing and don't give flying, er, thingy about what happens to Julian Massage?

No, not too early - I'm sure that the powers-that-be will be more than happy that one more member of the public doesn't give a rat's ass about who gets killed and who gets tortured, so they can get on with milking the world dry in peace.

Correct DrJ but is anyone really surprised that diplomats spy? Hardly news IMHO

Lots of things have come out that maybe we suspected in a paranoid sort of way, but I personally am shocked that all my worst fears are not only true, but more awful than I imagined.

DrJ +1

Reading the above posts the truth is that governments are becoming ever more remote from the people they purport to serve. Politicians seem to have forgotten their electorate - it seems the more they shout of freedom and democracy the less democracy and freedom their actually is.

Was it not Voltaire who said - I don't agree with what you say but I will fight for your right to say it. Assange as strange as he is has actually lifted the lid on just how rancid politics really has become. Do any of you here really think that Iraq was a good idea? Seriously? Not in my name and certainly not at that price - said it before it started (GWII) and have said it ever since. Perhaps this is the necessary development of open and accountable democracy?

lifted the lid on just how rancid politics really has become

Do you honestly believe this is as bad as it's ever been? I'm sure that if you had unfettered access to documentation about what countries got up to in the 50s and 60s you'd have an aneurysm.

grumm your liberal fool

I really struggle to see where the 'assault' part comes into it.

Anybody who rocks the boat and gets people thinking is alright with me.

Assange does come across pretty poorly - doubly so when you consider the serious inflationary hype about what wikileaks has actually revealed (IMHO).

His persecution (if that's not too strong a word), though, is incredible - and the most convincing thing to me that wikileaks might amount to more than a dissemination vehicle for liberal-baiting gossip. The military-industrial complex in action, really.

Bradley Manning is toast, let's face it. As a US soldier, he knew what he was doing, got caught (through basically bragging about it AFAICT), so he can expect rough justice. Whether he's a hero or not depends on your POV, but there's nothing down for the lad either way.

Junkyard - Member
grumm your liberal fool
I really struggle to see where the 'assault' part comes into it.

It is the bit where after the consenual sex act they found out he had "cheated" with the other one ...that is when it became an assault ...way after the event freely took place. Despite the sexual acts taking place at different times the women filed the charges together at the same time...seems a clear smear campaign to me

basically a smear test then.........

"Bradley Manning is toast"

Completely agree. He signed-up to classified data handling rules which he has willfully breached. The punishment is punitive.

tankslapper cant decide if I s****ed more than I groaned then - chapeau

Completely agree. He signed-up to classified data handling rules which he has willfully breached.

Well surely it's a good thing he leaked the helicopter video - what recourse do people have when their army is illegitimately murdering people then covering it up?

I wasn't aware that there was a cover-up relating to the copter video. There was an interesting interview with one of the soldiers on the scene after the attack was finished (he's the one who got the surviving kids medical aid) and he said they definitely recovered weapons from the ground so it wasn't like the people shot initially were just standing around. Given he's been fairly honest about the attack and the aftermath, he sounds quite genuine. He also gives reasons for the gunships opening up on the van as well.

Completely agree. He signed-up to classified data handling rules which he has willfully breached. The punishment is punitive.

Usually there is a trial before you get punished ...

atlaz watch the video it is as clear as clear can be that they are just shooting people

grumm - Member

Did you bother reading the details of the case either? I really struggle to see where the 'assault' part comes into it.

No, I didn't bother reading the details. Maybe he committed a crime, maybe he didn't. I don't know. And neither do you. Read all the guardian editorials you like, and you still won't know.
The point of any court case is to understand the full details of whatever happened, to then allow a decision on the basis of information which is as full and complete as possible.
It is a reasonable process. Now let it do its job instead of basing your judgements on propaganda, from whichever side.

glenp - Member

No doubt because you can't be bothered to read into it (you are a perfect citizen, behaving just as the powers want you to, well done) you seem to have missed quite a lot.

Troop movements? When did that get leaked?

You're right, I haven't bothered to read what's been leaked. Don't care. The information will not change my view of any government, as it's very minor compared to the other, much more fundamental gripes I have with 'the system'. Reading wikileaks would be like reading a negative review of the brakepads on a tesco dual suss. Your assumption that I'm a good citizen is foolish.

Attacking the illustration, glenp, even if incorrect, doesn't invalidate the point. Let me repeat:

In order for any organisation, be it government or business, to function efficiently, some information flows have to be kept confidential. Yet transparency is, without doubt, also instrumental to good decision making. So a balance has to be struck, but it's a very delicate one. I don't know who is qualified to decide where that balance is, but it's certainly not Assange.

Completely agree. He signed-up to classified data handling rules which he has willfully breached. The punishment is punitive.

Punitive or tantamount to inhumane?

The point of any court case is to understand the full details of whatever happened, to then allow a decision on the basis of information which is as full and complete as possible.
It is a reasonable process

the state to be nice and a fair arbiter of truth and justice

Ummm, what?
Sweden isn't a third world country, and nor do I expect them to do a run around justice by convening a military tribunal.
Therefore the state is not an arbiter at all, but rather only one of two sides in an argument before an independent judge and jury.
It's a good system (given competent lawyers which in this case I doubt will be a problem). I anticipate Assange will get a fair trial with a just outcome. Mistakes do happen, but I like to think they happen rarely.

You want transparency but you won’t read the information on this case how odd.

I want transparency so that I can find out things that matter to me. I want transparency so that you can find out things that matter to you.

Gawd, I don't know why I keep arguing on this forum. To argue with you is to imply that I care what you think, which just isn't the case... Just for the sport of it, I guess. Otherwise I might have to do some work...

You want people to agree with you or you dont care what they think How strange.
The state decides to charge hence why they can charge someone and be fair or unfair on this - I am no expert on the Swedish justice system. I think we can agree that even with an impartial judiciary the state still has a great deal of say in setting the rules [law]if not in interpretting them. I am sure you can think of other examples of abuse of power if you try really hard I assume in other non third world countries - do only they have "bad" justice?
As you refuse to read the details of the case indeed there is little point discussing the case as one of us is, intentionally, ignorant.

You want people to agree with you or you dont care what they think How strange.

How strange.

how odd.

As you refuse to read the details of the case indeed there is little point discussing the case as one of us is, intentionally, ignorant.

It's true that a state can be unfair or political in choosing which cases to put before the court. This can be an inconvenience, but if a case is without foundation, it is usually thrown out very quickly.

The point is that the adversarial justice system with an independent judiciary is, overall, an excellent and successful structure, which is not easy to influence unduly. It is better at achieving justice than anything else Man has invented. It is this system's job to establish the facts of this case, and you should let it do its job rather than argue for short circuiting it based on your own opinions of what these facts are.

If the Swedish prosecutors let themselves be bullied into dropping a [u]viable[/u] case, it would be a failure of justice, and shame on them.

Well surely it's a good thing he leaked the helicopter video - what recourse do people have when their army is illegitimately murdering people then covering it up?

Sorry, I may have given the impression that I wanted Manning to be toast - I don't at all. But he broke laws and he will be punished. I just hope a fair and strong judge recognises that he did so out of conscience and his punishment is ameliorated. A brave brave guy.

Given US behaviour in what they consider a "war" e.g. Guantanamo, rendition flights, water boarding and who knows what else, I think he will be squashed like bug.

Laws will be bent back on themselves. I reckon one way or another, Assange will end up either in US hands or dead by their hands.

I reckon one way or another, Assange will end up either in US hands or dead by their hands.

If I was going to put money on it, I'd go for one of the former Soviet republics - they'd be a whole lot less concerned about the political fall out, especially if everyone just blames the Americans anyway.

One of the most interesting features of the whole wikileaks brand of slacktivism is that, despite all the column inches in newspapers worldwide, I'm not aware of any politician or diplomat whose resigned or been sacked as a result. During the same period, the Scottish transport minister resigned because people in Scotland couldn't drive in snow.

It's interesting watching a recent programme on Yesterday about the Falklands conflict - it was using pretty much the same level of information about behind the scenes diplomatic activity as wikileaks is distributing now, but because it's 30 odd years old, it's now classified as historical window dressing.

I suspect, at the end of the day, that the only person who will suffer as a result of the wikileaks affair is Manning - I suspect he will be hammered to placate the Palin-esque loonies in the US.

atlaz - Member

"I wasn't aware that there was a cover-up relating to the copter video."

The official version of events was that there was a firefight ongoing which the helicopter fired upon, and stated that they didn't know how the kids were injured or how the journalists were killed, and refused to release their cameras. As it turned out the video contradicted that, and also showed the helicopter crew lied in order to get authorisation to fire. So yeah, cover up.

One of the most interesting features of the whole wikileaks brand of slacktivism is that, despite all the column inches in newspapers worldwide, I'm not aware of any politician or diplomat whose resigned or been sacked as a result

Says more about the degraded morality and sense of responsibility of the political class than anything.

I have to say he comes across well on this interview with David Frost.

The details don't matter, the principles do.

If the Swedish prosecutors let themselves be bullied into [s]dropping [/s] prosecuting a [s]viable[/s] pointless case, it would be a failure of justice, and shame on them.

Isn't it the case that he can't discuss details of the complaint against him, and it is only a complaint and not criminal charges, because it breaches his bail conditions?

Wikileaks published information that was leaked to them. Much like the Telegraph publishing MPs' expenses details. Whilst you could argue that publication created a security risk, the sheer number of people who had access to it tells us that it can't be all that important. But Wikileaks' most useful function is that of creating limited accountability for globalised government where currently there is none.

As for the Swedish rape case, the whole thing stinks. They've changed prosecutor after the previous one declined to pursue it, and he is yet to be charged.

But what happens when his UK visa runs out next year?

buzz-lightyear - Member
But what happens when his UK visa runs out next year?

Transportation to Australia?