MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
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I'm surprised that this hasn't been picked up on. Joe Biden has unconditionally pardoned his son Hunter despite repeatedly saying he wouldn't.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c4ngnw2qr01t
I can just imagine the conversation between Joe & Hunter over the weekend, can you imagine being in the same position?
Liberals and non-crazy right wingers are going to have to learn from the populist proto-fascist playbook if they’re going to survive politically, if not literally in the long term.
This is a start.
So hands up who here would sacrifice their son's liberty so they look good in the opinion columns?
The rich and powerful are above the law.
Biden looks incredibly stupid and hypocritical.
Trump did similar Kushner.
What I didn't realise that Presidents pardon 100's of people during their time in office. Why?
Liberals and non-crazy right wingers are going to have to learn from the populist proto-fascist playbook if they’re going to survive politically, if not literally in the long term.
That's your takeaway from this? Aim for the gutter? So everyone becomes an unprincipled, undemocratic, dog whistling populist grifter? What a bleak, depressing take on things. Maybe that is the direction things are heading in but I really hope not 🙁
I'd have an issue with it if he'd done anything I was remotely bothered about. But let's face it, most folk wouldn't be thrown in jail for doing what he has done
If you don’t fight back dirty you’re going to get squashed. That’s the brutal truth. There’s no points available for being nice any more, we are rapidly reaching the stage where they are just going to roll over Western liberal democracy as we’ve known it and it’ll be too late. Trump, Meloni, Le Pen, Farage, Putin, Xi, Erdowan, and on and on. Pretending we can rise above them and hold onto power by taking the high ground is not a lesson history teaches us.
It is bleak and depressing but we’re not beaten yet if we fight back robustly. Get a firm grip of social media firms, double down on liberal education, realign capitalism so it’s organised for the benefit of society rather than society organised for the benefit of capitalism.
Biden looks incredibly stupid and hypocritical.
Oh yeah, Biden. Just Biden. Not the last lot at all.
Double standards much?
What I didn’t realise that Presidents pardon 100’s of people during their time in office. Why?
Good question. And if it's such a good idea why don't UK prime ministers have similar powers?
Trump pardoned 237 people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_granted_executive_clemency_by_Donald_Trump
Clinton pardoned 456
The USA is a strange place.
The USA is a strange place.
This.
On a slightly broader note I had no idea any of this was even remotely possible until Trump started pardoning people after his first term. I understand Clinton also used this provision. Why is it even a thing.
I know we're way past it now but here's an idea- maybe nobody should get to pardon anybody.
Pretending we can rise above them and hold onto power by taking the high ground is not a lesson history teaches us.
You are suggesting that Joe Biden pardoning his own son is necessary for the Democrats to hold on to power?
If anything I would suggest the reverse - it feeds the narrative that all politicians are the same when they are not, at least they shouldn't be. And it lets corrupt politicians like Trump off the hook.
The rich and powerful are above the law.
Biden looks incredibly stupid and hypocritical.
This was my thought too, although I do get that Trump is vindictive & malicious enough to go after Hunter during his presidency.
US Presidents seem to like exercising their right to pardon (don't they pardon a turkey at Thanks Giving?) but the ability to pardon oneself seems utter madness.
Dissapointing, its mad that the president even has the power to do this
Trump is obviously many times worse but that doesnt help
How to legitamise Trump's abuse of power and demolish the Democratic party in one single act. What a legacy he leaves behind.
I do get that Trump is vindictive & malicious enough to go after Hunter during his presidency.
Is he though? During Trump's 2016 presidential campaign one of his rallying cries was "lock up crooked Hilary", even before he took office he had abandoned the Idea:
"Trump team won't pursue charges against Hillary Clinton"
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38069585
US politics is a different place, and the fact they do this (presidential pardons) just highlights it really . I can see why Biden's going to do it, what father wouldn't? And I can anticipate the howls of indignation from the Trumpists despite the fact that they all know full well if it was Barron or Don Jr, Trump would've done exactly the same thing.
Presidents have the power because European kings had that power at the time the post was created. And they were creating a temporary king style post. Seems antiquated now, but was probably reasonable 250 years ago.
I do get that Trump is vindictive & malicious enough to go after Hunter during his presidency.
Is he though?
Personally I think that he probably is (and he's known to have been so away from the political arena) but whether he's politically savvy enough not to, or the Republican party/advisors can reign him in I don't know. This time though he can't stand for re-election so there's probably less impetus to look decent.
Either way, Biden's actions are going to make it incredibly difficult for the Democrats to criticise Trump when he invariably uses the same powers to his advantage (possibly even pardoning himself).
Presidents have the power because European kings had that power at the time the post was created. And they were creating a temporary king style post. Seems antiquated now, but was probably reasonable 250 years ago.
And how many European monarchies ended with the monarch's head on a spike?
Makes you think. 😉
Disappointed the three wasn't titled " Biden did a Trump and tried to let it slip out unnoticed" or similar
Justice is an entirely arbitrary concept decided by whoever writes the rules, not some kind of immutable natural law.
The reins are about to be handed to the populists so it makes sense to lock down as much stuff down as possible before the frothers go crazy. I imagine there's a lot more of this type of thing coming before January.
What I didn’t realise that Presidents pardon 100’s of people during their time in office. Why?
Because the US system is screwed up so that the judiciary and politics are intertwined. Americans believe that are the definition of freedom and democracy but they are far from it.
Good question. And if it’s such a good idea why don’t UK prime ministers have similar powers?
It may have escaped your notice but Prime Ministers are not the head of state. The King does have the power to pardon people, his mother did so on a small number of occassions when recommended to do so by her Ministers. However I don't think you need to spend too long thinking about it to realise that outgoing UK prime ministers have their own weird ways of rewarding their friends.
I’d have an issue with it if he’d done anything I was remotely bothered about. But let’s face it, most folk wouldn’t be thrown in jail for doing what he has done
I think this is actually the crux of the matter - was he punished more because he was the president's son? I honestly don't know the answer to that because the US judicial system is crazy, but my gut feel is an average white guy with family wealth would have been able to negotiate a better deal.
So hands up who here would sacrifice their son’s liberty so they look good in the opinion columns?
If my son cost me the political and emotional capital that Biden's did I might take a lot of convincing to show him any compassion!
The rich and powerful are above the law.
Well, USA Presidents are literarily above the law. Something we find very confusing back here.. but then... the Royal Family.
Saving your son from a vengeful nasty incoming regime, when you have the power to do so - you'd do it every time.
This will make zero difference to what the MAGA lot will do over the next 4 years no matter what they say now. They will be pardoning their friends (again) and locking up their enemies.
Is he though? During Trump’s 2016 presidential campaign one of his rallying cries was “lock up crooked Hilary”, even before he took office he had abandoned the Idea:
“Trump team won’t pursue charges against Hillary Clinton”
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38069585/blockquote >
There may be some Epsteiny details that prevented that...
Trump has made clear that much of what motivates him during this term is retribution against his political opponents and his nominations for head of DOJ, FBI (Kash Patel FFS) is putting the pieces in place to pursue this. Hunter Biden has been, and remains, the obvious weak link to get at his father.
Joe Biden knows what's coming down the track for Hunter - more politically-motivated investigations, prosecutions and most likely sentencing far in excess of what an ordinary citizen would receive for similar circumstances - and I can't blame him for this, TBH.
This time he is getting unqualified yes men into every position, it remains to be seen if congress mounts any real challenge to that, they will probably reject a couple for show then instate equally unqualified yes men. I really don't think the institutions of state are going to offer much if any resistance at all this time around.
What I didn’t realise that Presidents pardon 100’s of people during their time in office. Why?
Theres a good reason to have a system to commute and pardon in the US and it's basically because partisan issues and partiality are baked into their legal and law enforcement systems. Judicial and senior police roles are largely either elected or directly politically appointed which means there are a lot of convictions and sentences that are either unsound or even if technically correct were never less personally, or politically (and often racially) motivated. Theres also circumstances where people have been convicted and sentenced for crimes we now no longer view as crimes.
Flicking through the list of Clinton's pardons theres an example of someone convicted of 'Conduct unbecoming of an officer' - that unbecoming conduction was basically being a black officer in the 1880s and successful in the role in a way that obvious upset fellow white officers.
However we tend not to know or hear a lot about of pardons because they are often in themselves quite mundane crimes and quite un-noteworty people. Reading through the bulk of Clinton's pardons - without knowing the details of any particular case - it looks like a long list of 'so what's.
While theres a necessary role for pardons and commuted sentences - there more of a question as to whether it should be the President or someone of something else who operates that statement - but if not them then who?
In a more innocent time it was sort of understood that although elected on a party ticket the role of president was one of service to all off the country - that they are a head of state as well as a politician. Trump has broken that model and positions himself very much not as the 'President of the USA' but as the "President of the people who voted for him' but by doing that he leaves the country without anyone in that head of state role.
We have 'Royal Pardon's and other similar tools here of course - not as many - on average about six a year - Alan Turing being the most famous example
Trump has made clear that much of what motivates him during this term is retribution against his political opponents and his nominations for head of DOJ, FBI (Kash Patel FFS) is putting the pieces in place to pursue this. Hunter Biden has been, and remains, the obvious weak link to get at his father.
Joe Biden knows what’s coming down the track for Hunter – more politically-motivated investigations, prosecutions and most likely sentencing far in excess of what an ordinary citizen would receive for similar circumstances – and I can’t blame him for this, TBH.
I agree. I don't think Biden had much choice really. Trump would clearly ruin Hunters life for him out of pure malice. Remember unsavoury tho Hunter might be the crimes he committed he had done a plea deal on which was reneged on.
I am not a massive fan of the American model but surely the President of the United States cannot find someone guilty, only a court of law can do that? So I don't know what this Trump going after Hunter implies.
And the one issue everyone seems to be ignoring is that if pardoning his own son is perfectly acceptable, appropriate, and morally justified, then why did Biden very clearly say that he would do the opposite, ie, that he would definitely not pardon him?
He could have made his intentions clear from the start. Instead he has now simply added liar to the charge sheet as well as hypocrite
Great ammunition for Trump.
"I said I'd abide by the jury decision, and I will do that. And I will not pardon him," Biden told reporters on the sidelines of the G7 summit in Italy. - Joe Biden
I am not a massive fan of the American model but surely the President of the United States cannot find someone guilty, only a court of law can do that? So I don’t know what this Trump going after Hunter implies.
BBC News stated that the pardon is quite wide ranging and extends back 10 years covering some supposedly dodgy business deals (Ukraine was mentioned).
Presumably Trump could have gone after him for these.
Because the rules of the game have changed.
What rules of the game have changed ?
And why did Joe Biden not envisage these rule changes when he made his firm and public commitment not to pardon Hunter?
Presumably Trump could have gone after him for these.
Yeah I can see that but Trump cannot find someone guilty. Hunter would presumably only be convicted if found guilty by a court of law.
What is the reason that he shouldn't face justice?
And interesting comment here by a loyal Democrat supporting newspaper :
President Biden and President-elect Donald J. Trump now agree on one thing: The Biden Justice Department has been politicized.
The prosecutions of Mr. Trump and the younger Mr. Biden were each handled by separate special counsels appointed specifically to insulate the cases from politics and senior department officials have denied that politics entered the equation against either man.
Mr. Biden’s pardon will make it harder for Democrats to defend the integrity of the Justice Department and stand against Mr. Trump’s unapologetic plans to use it for political purposes even as he seeks to install Kash Patel, an adviser who has vowed to “come after” the president-elect’s enemies, as the next director of the F.B.I.
It will also be harder for Democrats to criticize Mr. Trump for his prolific use of the pardon power to absolve friends and allies, some of whom could have been witnesses against him in previous investigations.
What is the reason that he shouldn’t face justice?
Because if you put enough resources into chasing anyone you will find them guilty of something?
Ultimately I disagree with Bidens choice but I can see why he did it.
A large portion of the US public has demonstrated it isnt fussed about the rule of law and are happy with a self serving president so why should he disagree with that?
The damage done to the democrats is probably balanced in his mind by the fact they kicked him out and, again in his mind, put his son into this position anyway.
The damage done to the democrats is probably balanced in his mind by the fact they kicked him out and, again in his mind, put his son into this position anyway.
Yeah I reckon I probably agree with that.
Although I am not so sure I agree that the United State's legal system is so deeply flawed that if they put enough resources into chasing an innocent person they will eventually be found guilty.
Well not unless they are black and without a pot to piss in.
Although I am not so sure I agree that the United State’s legal system is so deeply flawed that if they put enough resources into chasing an innocent person they will eventually be found guilty.
The trial process is only the end stage of a prolonged game of legal harassment that can involve investigations by various agencies headed by Trump appointees, or even Congressional probes which are nakedly political. Even once it gets to court, politically-appointed judges get to rule on defence and prosecution motions to include or exclude evidence and witnesses, or attempts to delay or expedite trial (see Judge Cannon's successful antics which helped kill a case against Trump in Florida).
A Trump-appointed judge gets to sum-up the case and give directions to a jury (which will likely have been bombarded with biased media coverage), and of course, decides on sentencing. I don't share your faith that even an innocent Hunter Biden would get much of a fair trial.
EDIT: And as for the Democrats losing the moral high ground, they've been clutching pearls about Republican abuses of power for years, doesn't seem to have caught the imagination of the electorate. Perhaps it's time to try something different.
I don’t share your faith that even an innocent Hunter Biden would get much of a fair trial.
Well it wasn't me who made that claim, it was Joe Biden himself who made it. Did you see the Biden quote I posted earlier?
Joe Biden has obviously done his son a big favour, he has also done Donald Trump a big favour, and he has no favours at all for the Democrat politicians he is leaving behind to deal with the incoming second Trump presidency. It all sounds a tad selfish, even if maybe understandable.
Global politics is getting very surreal, distopian and worrying in general.
It's a bad look for Biden.. *Depending* on your perspective!
Trump has already as good as squashed all the criminal charges of financial fraud, sexual abuse and election fraud against him, so he's essentially got off scot free.
Put yourself in Bidens shoes... He's basically got nothing to lose, so why not?
Now Trump will not only become president.. The courts and both houses are loaded with MAGA loyalists... Trump has carte blanch to rip up the rule book however he feels like.
Very scarey times indeed.
Put yourself in Bidens shoes… He’s basically got nothing to lose, so why not?
Yep. Not surprised at all that he's done this.
he has no favours at all for the Democrat politicians he is leaving behind
I expect he's still pissed off with them for forcing him to stand down as candidate, maybe even thinks he could have won.
Yeah it's not ideal, but tomorrow's chip wrappers and all that.
he has also done Donald Trump a big favour, and he has no favours at all for the Democrat politicians he is leaving behind to deal with the incoming second Trump presidency.
The tit for tat Presidential pardons game where Republicans loose their mind over Democrat pardons and vice versa has gone on for decades now, Biden pardoning his son won't have moved the dial past a couple of days of faux outrage from Fox who turned a blind eye to pardoning actual war crimes All which makes a bit of drugs and guns look a bit tame by comparison.
The rich and powerful are above the law.
Biden looks incredibly stupid and hypocritical.
Trump did similar Kushner.
What I didn’t realise that Presidents pardon 100’s of people during their time in office. Why?
I'm amazed that after you wrote the last two sentence you didn't reconsider what you'd said in the first two...
In Biden's place, with Trump coming in would you have not?
What rules of the game have changed ?
And why did Joe Biden not envisage these rule changes when he made his firm and public commitment not to pardon Hunter?
Are you for real, have you got no grasp of the seriousness of the situation?
If Hunter went to jail he’d have been Epstein’ed or hooked on drugs and what father would choose that option when he can pardon his son and save him.
Despite what public good Biden has done over his lifetime in service and the previous 4years as president I’ll always now think of him as Genocide Joe the enabler of Netanyahu and his goon squads.
If I was Biden, I'd be keeping my son out of the country, never mind the courts, for the next four years.
Are you for real, have you got no grasp of the seriousness of the situation?
Well I could ask exactly the same question of you.
The New York Times, which has endorsed every Democrat candidate since 1960, is highly critical of Joe Biden's decision to pardon his son because of the political damage it is likely to do.
Do you think they have no grasp of the seriousness of the situation......are they for real?
Presumably you never read their comment piece so here it is again:
I am not asking you to agree with it but the idea that anyone who doesn't agree with you doesn't understand the seriousness of the situation is absurd.
I would still be interested in knowing how the rules have changed. The New York Times might be too.
I read that there were questions about the enthusiasm H Bidens crimes were prosecuted with. Basically (if I remember correctly) the lying on the gun application happens all the time but is hardly ever prosecuted carries 20+years. And the tax one is not chased immediately usually if the debtor has had illness/addiction problems. Allegedly persons on the hill made sure that the full extent the law was used for crimes that usually don't even get to court.
It's this evenings chip wrappers by the time the next elect omes round. In fact I'd bet it's not even on anyone's top 100 discussion points.
Despite what public good Biden has done over his lifetime in service and the previous 4years as president I’ll always now think of him as Genocide Joe the enabler of Netanyahu and his goon squads.
You think a different US President would've done anything different over the last year or 2?
Interesting List:
The rules have changed because lying, cheating, corruption, nepotism, bribery and stupidity have become the norm within American democracy. Farage et al are working hard to make that the case here in the UK too.
The guide rails that held the Democrats and Republicans in line are gone. We can no longer rely on the 'good chap' rules that helped all sides stay within acceptable boundaries.
As a president disappointing but soon he'll just be a Dad.
I can forgive this act as a president but if he'd let his son rot at Trump's pleasure? As a Dad?
Totally unforgivable.
Biden did the right thing in a messed up situation.
The world isn't black and white. It just isn't.
Anyone think he’ll try a Xi Jinping a remove the 2 term limit?
Its an amendment so pretty much a losing battle.
Having his son declared official heir on the other hand.
Basically (if I remember correctly) the lying on the gun application happens all the time but is hardly ever prosecuted carries 20+years.
Remember though the republicans are firm supporters of gun control so its a perfectly logical position for them to take.
I do wonder what would happen if they tested Trump Jnr for drugs bearing in mind he likes hunting so has almost certainly filled out the gun application form the same way.
The Tories are nowhere near as bad as Trump’s New Republicans.
Yet.
Anyone think he’ll try a Xi Jinping a remove the 2 term limit?
It's a dead cert... I'll bet you a tenner.
EDIT: actually no..
As @ dissonance said, Trump as an individual isn't the big issue here, given his age and mental state it's highly likely he won't be alive or in a fit mental state to continue.
The bet has to be more nuanced...what we have here is a president setting a president!
Trump is just a sacrificial gargoyle, on the front of a much more sinister battering ram for what's lined up.
Would I have done it for my offspring? 100%, but I'm not exactly morally wholesome.
The amusing thing is that the 'oh so holier than thou' hand wringing majority on here are trying to justify it as morally acceptable.
Hilarious this place
Trump has already as good as squashed all the criminal charges of financial fraud, sexual abuse and election fraud against him, so he’s essentially got off scot free.
Put yourself in Bidens shoes… He’s basically got nothing to lose, so why not?
Now Trump will not only become president.. The courts and both houses are loaded with MAGA loyalists… Trump has carte blanch to rip up the rule book however he feels like.
Trump has already stated that he’s going to use whatever means he has at his disposal to chase down and prosecute everyone who he feels has said bad things about him, he’s putting a crony in charge of the FBI which will become Diaper Don’s personal instrument of retribution, America will become virtually indistinguishable from Russia from next January.
If I was the Bidens, I’d already have a foreign bolt hole set up and be having second thoughts about physically handing over to Don on the 20th, instead doing it via a Teams call.
The NYT also called for Biden to step down as candidate, so I doubt he gives much thought to their views on his pardoning.
No doubt Biden isn't giving much thought to the damage that he is doing to the Democrats or smug satisfaction that this particular U-turn is giving Trump.
Is that suppose to somehow justify what he has done?
Despite what public good Biden has done over his lifetime in service and the previous 4years as president I’ll always now think of him as Genocide Joe the enabler of Netanyahu and his goon squads.
You think a different US President would’ve done anything different over the last year or 2?
For sure. It obviously depends on who might be US president at the time but I can think of at least two former US presidents who suspended arms sales to Israel because of Israel's behaviour towards Palestinians, Ronald Reagan and Barack Obama.
U.S. SUSPENDS STRATEGIC PACT AND ARMS DEAL WITH ISRAEL OVER ANNEXATION OF GOLAN
Israeli official confirms US nixed arms shipment; pols argue over who’s to blame
Numerous US officials say the Gaza violence “has persuaded them that Mr. Netanyahu and his national security team are both reckless and untrustworthy,” the Wall Street Journal reported.
Joe Biden during the presidential campaign claimed that no US president had done more for Israel than he had done. He wasn't kidding.
How can the world trust the words from US President?