And interesting comment here by a loyal Democrat supporting newspaper :
President Biden and President-elect Donald J. Trump now agree on one thing: The Biden Justice Department has been politicized.
The prosecutions of Mr. Trump and the younger Mr. Biden were each handled by separate special counsels appointed specifically to insulate the cases from politics and senior department officials have denied that politics entered the equation against either man.
Mr. Biden’s pardon will make it harder for Democrats to defend the integrity of the Justice Department and stand against Mr. Trump’s unapologetic plans to use it for political purposes even as he seeks to install Kash Patel, an adviser who has vowed to “come after” the president-elect’s enemies, as the next director of the F.B.I.
It will also be harder for Democrats to criticize Mr. Trump for his prolific use of the pardon power to absolve friends and allies, some of whom could have been witnesses against him in previous investigations.
What is the reason that he shouldn’t face justice?
Because if you put enough resources into chasing anyone you will find them guilty of something?
Ultimately I disagree with Bidens choice but I can see why he did it.
A large portion of the US public has demonstrated it isnt fussed about the rule of law and are happy with a self serving president so why should he disagree with that?
The damage done to the democrats is probably balanced in his mind by the fact they kicked him out and, again in his mind, put his son into this position anyway.
The damage done to the democrats is probably balanced in his mind by the fact they kicked him out and, again in his mind, put his son into this position anyway.
Yeah I reckon I probably agree with that.
Although I am not so sure I agree that the United State's legal system is so deeply flawed that if they put enough resources into chasing an innocent person they will eventually be found guilty.
Well not unless they are black and without a pot to piss in.
Although I am not so sure I agree that the United State’s legal system is so deeply flawed that if they put enough resources into chasing an innocent person they will eventually be found guilty.
The trial process is only the end stage of a prolonged game of legal harassment that can involve investigations by various agencies headed by Trump appointees, or even Congressional probes which are nakedly political. Even once it gets to court, politically-appointed judges get to rule on defence and prosecution motions to include or exclude evidence and witnesses, or attempts to delay or expedite trial (see Judge Cannon's successful antics which helped kill a case against Trump in Florida).
A Trump-appointed judge gets to sum-up the case and give directions to a jury (which will likely have been bombarded with biased media coverage), and of course, decides on sentencing. I don't share your faith that even an innocent Hunter Biden would get much of a fair trial.
EDIT: And as for the Democrats losing the moral high ground, they've been clutching pearls about Republican abuses of power for years, doesn't seem to have caught the imagination of the electorate. Perhaps it's time to try something different.
I don’t share your faith that even an innocent Hunter Biden would get much of a fair trial.
Well it wasn't me who made that claim, it was Joe Biden himself who made it. Did you see the Biden quote I posted earlier?
Joe Biden has obviously done his son a big favour, he has also done Donald Trump a big favour, and he has no favours at all for the Democrat politicians he is leaving behind to deal with the incoming second Trump presidency. It all sounds a tad selfish, even if maybe understandable.
Global politics is getting very surreal, distopian and worrying in general.
It's a bad look for Biden.. *Depending* on your perspective!
Trump has already as good as squashed all the criminal charges of financial fraud, sexual abuse and election fraud against him, so he's essentially got off scot free.
Put yourself in Bidens shoes... He's basically got nothing to lose, so why not?
Now Trump will not only become president.. The courts and both houses are loaded with MAGA loyalists... Trump has carte blanch to rip up the rule book however he feels like.
Very scarey times indeed.
Put yourself in Bidens shoes… He’s basically got nothing to lose, so why not?
Yep. Not surprised at all that he's done this.
he has no favours at all for the Democrat politicians he is leaving behind
I expect he's still pissed off with them for forcing him to stand down as candidate, maybe even thinks he could have won.
Yeah it's not ideal, but tomorrow's chip wrappers and all that.
he has also done Donald Trump a big favour, and he has no favours at all for the Democrat politicians he is leaving behind to deal with the incoming second Trump presidency.
The tit for tat Presidential pardons game where Republicans loose their mind over Democrat pardons and vice versa has gone on for decades now, Biden pardoning his son won't have moved the dial past a couple of days of faux outrage from Fox who turned a blind eye to pardoning actual war crimes All which makes a bit of drugs and guns look a bit tame by comparison.
The rich and powerful are above the law.
Biden looks incredibly stupid and hypocritical.
Trump did similar Kushner.
What I didn’t realise that Presidents pardon 100’s of people during their time in office. Why?
I'm amazed that after you wrote the last two sentence you didn't reconsider what you'd said in the first two...
In Biden's place, with Trump coming in would you have not?
What rules of the game have changed ?
And why did Joe Biden not envisage these rule changes when he made his firm and public commitment not to pardon Hunter?
Are you for real, have you got no grasp of the seriousness of the situation?
If Hunter went to jail he’d have been Epstein’ed or hooked on drugs and what father would choose that option when he can pardon his son and save him.
Despite what public good Biden has done over his lifetime in service and the previous 4years as president I’ll always now think of him as Genocide Joe the enabler of Netanyahu and his goon squads.
If I was Biden, I'd be keeping my son out of the country, never mind the courts, for the next four years.
Are you for real, have you got no grasp of the seriousness of the situation?
Well I could ask exactly the same question of you.
The New York Times, which has endorsed every Democrat candidate since 1960, is highly critical of Joe Biden's decision to pardon his son because of the political damage it is likely to do.
Do you think they have no grasp of the seriousness of the situation......are they for real?
Presumably you never read their comment piece so here it is again:
I am not asking you to agree with it but the idea that anyone who doesn't agree with you doesn't understand the seriousness of the situation is absurd.
I would still be interested in knowing how the rules have changed. The New York Times might be too.
I read that there were questions about the enthusiasm H Bidens crimes were prosecuted with. Basically (if I remember correctly) the lying on the gun application happens all the time but is hardly ever prosecuted carries 20+years. And the tax one is not chased immediately usually if the debtor has had illness/addiction problems. Allegedly persons on the hill made sure that the full extent the law was used for crimes that usually don't even get to court.
It's this evenings chip wrappers by the time the next elect omes round. In fact I'd bet it's not even on anyone's top 100 discussion points.
Despite what public good Biden has done over his lifetime in service and the previous 4years as president I’ll always now think of him as Genocide Joe the enabler of Netanyahu and his goon squads.
You think a different US President would've done anything different over the last year or 2?
Interesting List:
The rules have changed because lying, cheating, corruption, nepotism, bribery and stupidity have become the norm within American democracy. Farage et al are working hard to make that the case here in the UK too.
The guide rails that held the Democrats and Republicans in line are gone. We can no longer rely on the 'good chap' rules that helped all sides stay within acceptable boundaries.
As a president disappointing but soon he'll just be a Dad.
I can forgive this act as a president but if he'd let his son rot at Trump's pleasure? As a Dad?
Totally unforgivable.
Biden did the right thing in a messed up situation.
The world isn't black and white. It just isn't.
Anyone think he’ll try a Xi Jinping a remove the 2 term limit?
Its an amendment so pretty much a losing battle.
Having his son declared official heir on the other hand.
Basically (if I remember correctly) the lying on the gun application happens all the time but is hardly ever prosecuted carries 20+years.
Remember though the republicans are firm supporters of gun control so its a perfectly logical position for them to take.
I do wonder what would happen if they tested Trump Jnr for drugs bearing in mind he likes hunting so has almost certainly filled out the gun application form the same way.
The Tories are nowhere near as bad as Trump’s New Republicans.
Yet.
Anyone think he’ll try a Xi Jinping a remove the 2 term limit?
It's a dead cert... I'll bet you a tenner.
EDIT: actually no..
As @ dissonance said, Trump as an individual isn't the big issue here, given his age and mental state it's highly likely he won't be alive or in a fit mental state to continue.
The bet has to be more nuanced...what we have here is a president setting a president!
Trump is just a sacrificial gargoyle, on the front of a much more sinister battering ram for what's lined up.
Would I have done it for my offspring? 100%, but I'm not exactly morally wholesome.
The amusing thing is that the 'oh so holier than thou' hand wringing majority on here are trying to justify it as morally acceptable.
Hilarious this place
Trump has already as good as squashed all the criminal charges of financial fraud, sexual abuse and election fraud against him, so he’s essentially got off scot free.
Put yourself in Bidens shoes… He’s basically got nothing to lose, so why not?
Now Trump will not only become president.. The courts and both houses are loaded with MAGA loyalists… Trump has carte blanch to rip up the rule book however he feels like.
Trump has already stated that he’s going to use whatever means he has at his disposal to chase down and prosecute everyone who he feels has said bad things about him, he’s putting a crony in charge of the FBI which will become Diaper Don’s personal instrument of retribution, America will become virtually indistinguishable from Russia from next January.
If I was the Bidens, I’d already have a foreign bolt hole set up and be having second thoughts about physically handing over to Don on the 20th, instead doing it via a Teams call.
The NYT also called for Biden to step down as candidate, so I doubt he gives much thought to their views on his pardoning.
No doubt Biden isn't giving much thought to the damage that he is doing to the Democrats or smug satisfaction that this particular U-turn is giving Trump.
Is that suppose to somehow justify what he has done?
Despite what public good Biden has done over his lifetime in service and the previous 4years as president I’ll always now think of him as Genocide Joe the enabler of Netanyahu and his goon squads.
You think a different US President would’ve done anything different over the last year or 2?
For sure. It obviously depends on who might be US president at the time but I can think of at least two former US presidents who suspended arms sales to Israel because of Israel's behaviour towards Palestinians, Ronald Reagan and Barack Obama.
U.S. SUSPENDS STRATEGIC PACT AND ARMS DEAL WITH ISRAEL OVER ANNEXATION OF GOLAN
Israeli official confirms US nixed arms shipment; pols argue over who’s to blame
Numerous US officials say the Gaza violence “has persuaded them that Mr. Netanyahu and his national security team are both reckless and untrustworthy,” the Wall Street Journal reported.
Joe Biden during the presidential campaign claimed that no US president had done more for Israel than he had done. He wasn't kidding.
How can the world trust the words from US President?
PoopscoopFull Member
As a president disappointing but soon he’ll just be a Dad.I can forgive this act as a president but if he’d let his son rot at Trump’s pleasure? As a Dad?
Totally unforgivable.
Biden did the right thing in a messed up situation.
The world isn’t black and white. It just isn’t.
Not for me! The role of President with responsibility for the safety and welfare of the nation trumps(sorry) that of being a dad.
Is that suppose to somehow justify what he has done?
He doesn't have to justify it. He's just exercised the fully legal right of a departing president, just as many other presidents, democrat or republican, have done before him. Those in the media who did their bit to get a far, far worse creature elected, both by downplaying Trump's corruption and holding Biden to an entirely different standard, now get what they wanted, which is at least four years of highly newsworthy chaos. Let's hope they've all done enough win favour in Washington and to keep themselves out of the crosshairs of Kash Patel's FBI, or Pam Bondi's DoJ.
He doesn’t have to justify it.
That's not the issue though. The issue isn't that Biden needs to justify it for his son to receive a pardon, he clearly does not have to.
The issue seems to be that a great deal of people, many of them either Democrat politicians or Democrat supporters, feel that it is wholly unjustified, whatever Biden might or might not say.
I suspect that the person most chuffed by it is probably Donald Trump.
Many people, and I include myself, struggle to understand how Donald Trump won the presidential election so easily. This latest stroke by Biden probably provides a little insight. At least Trump doesn't pretend to be anything other than an arsehole.
At least Trump doesn’t pretend to be anything other than an arsehole.
This is indeed true.
I think history will be the final judge on Biden.
Biden's an old guy now. I'm not sure how long Hunter's sentence could be? Particularly if it becomes a political weapon to kick his father in the nads with.
Biden likely doesn't want to meet his maker knowing his son is locked up. Sure, he could have "won the argument" by not pardoning him but on a purely human, emotional level? I totally get it. I think history will understand it too in all honesty.
To carry that to your grave, you'd have to be made of granite not to blame yourself for what your son is going through.
I'm not presidential material (!) but I know I wouldn't be happy taking my last breath with that guilt hanging over me. He's already lost 2 children hasn't he? I can't imagine that.
If also be telling my son that he just had lifes one and only get out of jail free card and he better spend the rest of his life earning it.
The guide rails that held the Democrats and Republicans in line are gone. We can no longer rely on the ‘good chap’ rules that helped all sides stay within acceptable boundaries.
The most likely explanation, that he’s just saving his son, is of course the likely one. But I almost wonder if someone with a bit more political intelligence has encouraged him - because it WILL cause outrage across the political divide, and perhaps that will be a catalyst for future legislative constraint on what the president can do?
I’m not sure how long Hunter’s sentence could be?
Wasn't even certain to get a prison sentence.
The likelihood that Biden is sentenced to prison is “pretty low,” said Jeffrey Brown, co-chair of Dechert LLP’s enforcement and litigation practice, who previously served as co-chief of the general crimes unit in the Manhattan U.S. attorney’s office.
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/06/11/hunter-biden-guilty-whats-next-six-questions-00162718
And if that was really what worried Joe Biden he could have simply commuted his sentence.
He could also commute any prison sentence that his son receives, leaving the criminal conviction intact while sparing his son time in a federal lockup.
Commuting the sentence could certainly be considered a happyish compromise. Well, it would still be viewed negatively and positively depending upon held views of mortality or political persuasion. Perhaps his judgment is that a full pardon is likely to be more Trump proof in some way and carries little extra political liability than a commuted sentence does.
Interestingly, Clinton pardoned his own brother back in 2001 and who remembers that? Hell, I only know because it's in the link you posted.
In January 2001, on his final day in office, President Bill Clinton pardoned his brother Roger Clinton Jr. for a 1985 drug conviction.
Perhaps we'll never know Biden's personal motives (other than the obvious, of being his father) or political calculations. Whether history judges them and him harshly, or even remembers them, is also another question.
meh.
Either way, in a couple of weeks this will be a long forgotten footnote - the only difference would have been whether hunter Biden was in Jail or not. It;s going to make zero difference to the democrats in four years after all the nonsense that Trump has/will get up to.
If I was Joe, would I trust trump not to use him as a political football for the next 4 years? No. I'd take him off the chess board completely.
I think he's done the right thing
