Jeremy Corbyn

"The PLP is the problem right now, not Corbyn. Once that lot are cleaned out, then it's time to see what Corbyn is made of."

+1

"Purge the bastards, clean out the party, suppress the dissenters....

Modern politics in action. How lovely."

It's what the vast majority of Labour party members want. That's democracy. 😉

Oh labour 'leadship' vote time again is it again. Am I still able to sign up for 3 quid to ensure this unelectable clown gets in again to ensure many more years in the wilderness for the labour party?

I've actually bothered to register to vote in the Labour party elections. Hell I might even join, if Corbyn is not the leader.

Why? We are at one of the biggest moments in political history and Corbyn is more concerned about ..., actually I don't know. I would like to, but his has failed to give me any sort of indication of what policies he stands for, what he wants to do, how he is going to LEAD the Labour Party in holding the Government to account while the Brexit negotiations are in progress.

He has spent his political life, sniping from the sidelines, not having to justify what he does except to say that he is following his principles. Now he needs to stand up and show what he can do - and he is not.

Sadly politics, like life, is a series of compromises, working with people who you don't like and may not agree with, to reach a solution. If he can't persuade the bulk of the PLP to work with him, how is he going to get Parliament to agree, how is going to get the British public to agree. Yes, many Corbyn fans have joined the party, but to win an election he needs to a bigger appeal, across the whole of the left and centre.

Blair and Brown may be spat upon by the current party, but at least they understood the need to be selected to be able to do something. Principles are great, but if you are not in power then they are virtually worthless.

I remember Michael Foot becoming leader, instead of Dennis Healy. What a disaster. Foot was a great academic, a great speaker, but a lousy leader. Labour was banished to the wilderness, until John Smith, Blair and Brown dragged it into life. And then only because the Tories has become so arrogant about power.

I suspect that Corbyn's inner circle are so afraid of losing power that they have to make him stay. I'll vote against him, mainly because by staying he will split the PLP from the hard left grass routes, requiring years to fix and allowing the Tories total control for as long as they want. The SNP will see the weakness of Labour as just another excuse to demand another vote and potentially split the UK.

"Blair and Brown may be spat upon by the current party, but at least they understood the need to be selected to be able to do something. Principles are great, but if you are not in power then they are virtually worthless."

But you see, you're talking about something that hasn't been spoken about in British politics for a very long time; [i]principles[/i]. That's Corbyn that's got you and other talking about this. People are finally waking up to the fact that they keep electing unprincipled self-serving scum, and it's doing this repeatedly, which has led to deepening social division, spiralling housing costs, increased job insecurity and genuine fear for the future.

And it's bout time this happened, rather than people mumbling about what ****ing suit someone's wearing.

Clodhopper - through your own words, and attitude, you have perfectly summed up why Corbyn, backed up with labour 'members' and 'supporters' like yourself, are about as far away as it is possible to get from who most normal, rational people want to see in power, running the country.

I'm sure this is of little concern to you, and your weird mean-spirited little 80's revivalist, Militant sect, but the people who are looking on and approving of your actions whole-heartedly are those at Tory Central Office who must be not-quite-believing of their luck, as Corbyn leads the party into a totally unelectable political wilderness for a generation, possibly forever.

Yet your focus is so narrow, your bitterness so vitriolic, your targets so misguided, you can't even see it.

The scariest thing about that is that as the Labour Party disintegrates into democratic irrelevance, to the detriment of us all, the people like yourself will look for anyone else to blame but yourselves. More targets, more scapegoats, more perceived enemies of the cult of the great leader. Non-believers.

And who knows where that kind of paranoid, persecution-complex, bunker-mentality extremism will lead?

I'm still looking on in disbelief, and genuine sorrow at what the Labour Party has become under Corbyn. And I'm far from alone in that sentiment

Yet your focus is so narrow, your bitterness so vitriolic, your targets so misguided, you can't even see it.

But...but...[b][i]principles[/i][/b]. Yeah?

"Yet your focus is so narrow, your bitterness so vitriolic, your targets so misguided, you can't even see it."

😆

Do you ever read your own posts?

Go back to your Guardian. Have a look through the 'Jobs' section. Get one.

And get a life. 😉

Clodhopper - You missed the point. To be able to action your principles you need to be in power. To do that you need to compromise. Corbyn has yet to demonstrate that he can do this, his failure to work with the PLP actually demonstrates the opposite.

And please do not start claiming that all MP's are "unprincipled self-serving scum". The vast majority are hard working people who spend many hours doing stuff that you and I never see. There are a few bad apples, but that applies across life and across political parties. I actually thought that Corbyn was trying to get away from name calling.

@binners the Tories cannot believe their luck, the Sturgeon vs Milliband debate exchange helped deliverer a majority government and now the Labour Party have smashed the big red button marked "self destruct". Its not justbin central office of course, its in every constituency they are p.ssing themselves laughing I am sure.

What I find stunning is that so many people really believe the Corbyn "far" left agenda has any chance of delivering a Labour government. A whole host of senior Labour figures pointed out 9 months ago that "principled" socialist policies played well with the party faithful but left them in opposition for 18 years.

Latest polls say the "Wierd little sect" currently numbers about 165000 people. Thats a lot of far left crazed trots who have just spontaneously sprung into existence Binners.

For all we know Corbyn has a shed load of policies but we'd never know as the press either wouldn't report it or would happily distort and misrepresent them.

What I find stunning is that so many people really believe the Corbyn "far" left agenda has any chance of delivering a Labour government.

This is the sort of guff that makes him unelectable. He's not really far left but it's the agenda being pushed and people seem happy to believe it. In the same way that May is 'a safe pair of hands' and not the most authoritarian right wing home sec we've had in a long long time.

Latest polls say the "Wierd little sect" currently numbers about 165000 people.

165000 people? I bet the tories are quaking in their boots, sat on their parliamentary majority for the next 4 years.

How many votes did UKIP get at the last election? Which delivered how many seats?

But as they've just demonstrated by their active campaigning in the EU referendum, in contrast to a totally disengaged Corbyn, to deliver the result they wanted, they're actually a more effective political force

11, 334,000 people voted for the Tories in 2015

9,347,000 for Labour

So even if all 9m voted for labour again (abig if) only 1.7% of the 9m will be Corbyn labour party supporters

And where does the 165,000 come from? The number joining the Labour party, or applying to be a registered voter? Given that I have registered, that means the number must be wrong.

However in a population of 65+ million, 165,000 is a very small number, spread very thinly across the country. It won't win seats, they already vote Labour. To win you must get the 'floating voter', you must show that you are a better party to govern. That requires main stream policies that appeal to more that just the hard left, the dreamers of a Utopian state. They are main stream policies because they appeal to more of the population. Stepping to the left reduces the number of people who could vote for you, in the same way when the Tories stepped to the right.

But it comes back to the same argument - can Corbyn appeal to the broad range of the UK population, can he lead his party, can he been seen as a PM. This killed Foot and Kinock at the polls. If Corbyn stays then he risks making their defeats look like victories.

Yawn: because the conservatives only got 150k votes and 4 seats last time too. if both of you are banking on the surge in party membership not being reflected by far more no -member people who have voted green/plaid because labour was the opposite cheek if the same Tory arse, or never actually voted at all and coming out to vote for Corbyn, just come out and say it. Wierd little sect it is not though, larger than the entire Conservative party membership it is. Binners you are capable of better than that.

"Binners you are capable of better than that."

I really don't think he is.

For all we know Corbyn has a shed load of policies but we'd never know as the press either wouldn't report it or would happily distort and misrepresent them

To be fair, his group of experts were unaware of his economic policy as well so I am not sure it s the media's fault. He doesn't play the game, this may be a conscious decision, but you can't blame the media. I think they are still waiting for a reaction to the new Tory Leadership.

Why do Tory voters/ STW posters care about Corbyn so much?

I dont belive this "we need a strong opposition" bolx!

Is it as simple as smelling blood and wanting a scalp?

Surely if you are a Tory you want a weak Labour leader?

Or are Tories wanting a Labour party they can vote for? Shy/ashamed Tory syndrome...

"reflected by far more no -member people"

Not enough, not nearly enough:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06950lm

"Surely if you are a Tory you want a weak Labour leader?"

They do. They've gone really easy on him 'cos they want him in the leadership role in 2020. In the run up to 2020 they'll pull out all the quotes from the last 30 years and crucify him.

In contrast the Labour MPs want him out ASAP.

Not a sect?

Have you been looking at the behavior and attitudes of these people? Who they are? This is a tragic replay of the Militant Tendency in the 80's. It's a self-absorbed cult.

I don't doubt for a second that Corbyn will win the ballot, because for those people, that's it. That's the ends in itself.

It isn't a step on the way to power, to government. To making a difference to people's lives. It's a spiteful, narrow little 'victory' over their perceived enemies... the Blairites. Not the Tories.... the real 'enemy'... oh no.... thats too big a picture.

Their focus is terminally parochial, their ambitions (such as they are) so small, so petty, that ultimately it'll never deliver anything but the same vaiglorious 'victory' they can bask in in their tiny little world. The same 'victory' that's already delivered them to where they are now

Yeah... looks like some 'victory'

The losers? .... The people the Labour Party are meant to represent. Who barely even register in the mindset. Remember them?

The winners? They're sat in power, and will be for another 18 years. Same as they were the last time the Labour Party drove itself down this hard left cul-de-sac

whatnobeer - Member

This is the sort of guff that makes him unelectable. He's not really far left but it's the agenda being pushed and people seem happy to believe it.

Yup. I've said this a lot recently but this is the most important game in politics now and it's one that the best liars with the most press are always likely to win. Redefine anyone leftwing as "hard left" or "far left". Say Milliband failed because he was "too left wing" rather than "too shit" (this had a weird backlash when after the election suddenly lots of people who'd ripped him to shreds before the election declared him to be a masterful leader who only losts because he was Too Left Wing)Redefine a clearly rightwing Tory party as being centrist. It's not about winning the centre, it's about moving the centre.

Is he still avoiding the Today programme?

I don't listen to every second of every programme, but I'm sure I just haven't heard him on there at all.

Whereas we had that Hilary Benn on this morning, and we even had Tony Blair on a few days ago.

I won't vote for someone who won't go on Today. It doesn't matter what their policies are.

ctk - lets have a guess....

entertainment?

it is like a very poor soap opera?

The losers? .... The people the Labour Party are meant to represent.

Nice middle class people in Islington, you mean? Well, they're doing well there, that's for sure!

However, taking your point more seriously, Binners, you're right. The people the Labour party are supposed to represent aren't being represented by the Labour party. See the swathes of brexit votes in Labour heartlands, for example. They wanted to get out, Corbyn desperately believed in the Remain vote. (I think he did, anyway....)

The point of opposition is to hold the government to account, to push for change in so far as is possible, and above all, to try and stop being the opposition. There's no point having principles and loyalty (Going against the whip, anyone?) if you can't do a bloody thing about them. This stupid "We hate teheviltoriez!" mentality isn't a vote winner. Focus instead on swing voters, look at the real concerns of your core voters (not members, note) and then there's a chance.

"can Corbyn appeal to the broad range of the UK population, can he lead his party, can he been seen as a PM. This killed Foot and Kinock at the polls. If Corbyn stays then he risks making their defeats look like victories."

If Corbyn had as many friends in the media as Boris Johnson, for example, then he'd win the next GE by an absolute landslide. Personally, I'm amazed that in spite of the unprecedented level of negative press he's received (in, let's face it, a more or less exclusively right wing media), that his popularity actually seems to be growing! It's very interesting to note that although based on little more than xenophobic fear mongering, UKIP enjoy a disturbing level of popularity in the UK. They are in fact a very hard-right wing party, which makes deluded claims of British politics being largely 'centrist', quite preposterous. To reiterate my previous point; we have hard right (Tory), 'soft' right (LibDem) and largely centre right-wing (Labour as it has become). There is no main true left wing party in UK politics these days. When things have shifted so far, that people call Corbyn 'hard left, it just shows just how right wing our political landscape has become. Many people (several on this forum as perfect proof) don't actually know what true left-wing politics are about. People who may have seen themselves as 'left-wing', are in fact to the right of centre politically, if applying universal standard academic definitions.

If Labour are indeed to become an effective opposition and potentially in government, then they will need to really offer a true alternative to the neo-liberalism as imposed by Thatcher and Blair. As has been proven, having a useless puppet like Ed Miliband won't work. Labour party members didn't vote for Liz Kendall, Andy Burnham or Yvette Cooper, they voted for Jeremy Corbyn. Because they wanted to see a genuine change, not the same old shite. It was Ed Miliband that made Labour unelectable, not Jeremy Corbyn. I didn't vote for Labour at the last GE, in spite of previously being a lifelong Labour voter and supporter because I really didn't see what the point was, of voting to elect an irrelevant centre-right party, as it didn't stand for the values I believe in. Jeremy Corbyn's election as Labour leader has made me want to vote for them again. And there are many, many people throughout the UK who think the same as me.

But then, what do I know? I don't read newspapers.

clodhopper - out of interest, in which constituency do you vote?

But a lot of the working class are xenophobic, they aren't particularly well educated or travelled, they probably don't like gays and generally have some views that Islington labour folk would find abhorrent. But traditionally they voted Labour as they felt they were on their side. But labour have forgotten them and now focus on the public sector worker and the urban left wing trendy Guardian reader. It isn't a surprise then that some of the working class feel let down by labour and have jumped to UKIP.

ctk - lets have a guess....

entertainment?

it is like a very poor soap opera?

That is the medias main interest at the mo. Blue on blue and red on red personality clashes.

"The people the Labour party are supposed to represent aren't being represented by the Labour party. "

Which is why Labour has to change. There's no way the likes of Ed Miliband, Hilary Benn, Chuka Umunna and John Mann etc represent these people. Purging the party of such self-serving careerists can only be good for Labour.

"Nice middle class people in Islington, you mean?"

What's wrong with Labour representing them as well?

"clodhopper - out of interest, in which constituency do you vote?"

A very affluent middle-class one.

Owen Smith?

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

😆

A very affluent middle-class one.

Jolly good. So do I. West Worcestershire.
So in which constituency do you vote?

Why are you so interested?

Owen Smith went to the same school as me!

@clodhopper - Johnson has very few friends in the media- Rupert Murdoch hates him and he's a difficult character to defend for newspapers due to his extramarital affairs and whatever stuff we don't know about, yet. The tabloids tend to be socially conservative in their outlook, mirroring the views of a perceived majority and he doesn't fit within their remit.

My take on Corbyn is I like his polices but the presentation isn't so good. Leftwing reformers don't do so well in the UK and it's not due to polices, more that they always chose to engage on their own terms; i.e, attack the institution rather than focusing on getting specific issues through the parliament. Ultimately their supporters become the 'angry brigade'which ultimately scares away the less-disenfrancished.

Garlic - what are Jeremy's polices?

I ask because I've spent the last 1/2 hour looking at endless "priorities" and "what Jeremy thinks" but have yet to stumble across anything that could be mistaken for a well researched, fully costed proposal.

Where should I be looking? If Jeremy were to become PM what would he actually do?

Policies comrade?

Well we know, after yesterday, that the labour leadership will be actively pursuing a commitment to unilateral nuclear disarmament.

That policy at the very forefront of everyone's mind

But Europe? Brexit? Economic policy?

Do not concern yourself with this triviality. Trust in the glorious leader comrade! Tractor production will be the envy of the world!

Welcome back to 1983. It'll go better this time. Promise.

"Johnson has very few friends in the media"

Absolute nonsense. Johnson owes much of his political success to his connections in the media. In fact, I very much doubt he would have won two London mayoral elections were it not for these connections, and the campaigns waged in the media against Ken Livingstone. Johnson has made several racist, xenophobic and otherwise offensive remarks during his career, as well as unashamedly championing the elites, yet receives relatively very little mainstream media criticism. There's no way he would have continued to have any form of public career without his many powerful media connections.

receives relatively very little media criticism.

You should perhaps try looking at more media.

Anyway, North West Hampshire. You?

"Trust in the glorious leader comrade! Tractor production will be the envy of the world??"

What next? Comparisons with Stalin and how if Corbyn gets to be PM, we'll all be slaving away on collective farms or risk being sent to the Gulags? Or how we'll all have to stand in public squares and sing rousing songs in tribute to our glorious leader? How Corbyn's enemies will end up with ice-picks in their heads? And how we'll inevitably end up at War with the West culminating in all-out nuclear armageddon? That's if we haven't all starved to death first...

Keep going Binners. For your next trick, why not think up a witty new Russell Brandism?

You could run is through some policies instead. You seem very keen, so I presume there's some substance to Jeremy, which politicians generally communicate in the form of policies.

I'm sure the reason we.re not clued up on the detail is just part of a Guardianista/right wing press/Blairite/Tory conspiracy, so do fill us all in on 'The Grand Vision'

We'll take the Trident thing as read....

GO!......

There's this thing called The Internet. It offers unprecedented access to information, at your fingertips.

[url= http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Corbyn+policies ]Use it.[/url]

Didnt seem much detail there....

I'd rather hear it from you. I just find your enthusiasm so infectious that I'm sure you'd be evangelical about communicating your heroes policies......

You're clearly so enamoured that I can't believe you'd base that on something of so little substance

Start with EU policy post Brexit. The labour party's stance is.....?

Why are the rebels putting up useless 'candidates' such as Angela Eagle and Owen Smith against Corbyn? Why aren't the likes of Hilary Benn and John Mann, Corbyn's biggest party enemies, standing against him?

Is it because they haven't the balls to do it themselves? Shows just what snivelling, cowardly careerists they really are.

@robixon Corbyn wants major reforms to services; he believes that businesses that are meant to serve the public but have have stopped serving the public, such as rail and energy companies, should be publicly owned and not for profit. That's not a mandate for total nationalisation, just applying state ownership to services that have stopped functioning as promised by the reforms of the 1980s.

He doesn't believe in unilateral disarmament, thinking the UK should set a mandate by setting an example.

Increase the minimum wage to £8, noting that the cost of living has risen.

Anti-Austerity- i.e. increase money to public services such as benefits and the NHS, salaries for public servants such as doctors and nurses should meet inflation.

Mansion tax- people with homes worth millions should pay duty on them, comparable to property rates before council tax/community charge was introduced.

Theres lots more. It's generally a robin hood mandate, increase taxes on the wealthy to rebalance society a bit. A lot of reforms- in my view some are OTT (the UK is complicated place) but some are overdue.

Allow local authorities to borrow money in order to build houses.

[url= http://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/news/can-jeremy-corbyn-solve-the-housing-crisis/8688436.fullarticle ]Architects Journal[/url]

"Of all the candidates, Corbyn has the most detailed housing policies, outlined in a nine-page manifesto."

@clodhopper remember that Corbyn was an unknown this time last year, the same as Smith is now. Eagle challenged in order to raise the issue knowing she wasn't an electable candidate, Smith believes he his, took Eagle's lead, Eagle retracted.

Not sure about Benn or Mann, you could write letters and ask them. They will reply.

Just paid £25 in a drunken fury to be able to vote - if it doesn't go my way, can I claim it back as the game is horribly fixed?

Garlic, but what do these statements actually mean and are they pie in the sky?

[i]"Corbyn wants major reforms to services; he believes that businesses that are meant to serve the public but have have stopped serving the public, such as rail and energy companies, should be publicly owned and not for profit. That's not a mandate for total nationalisation, just applying state ownership to services that have stopped functioning as promised by the reforms of the 1980s."[/i]

States can't run businesses under EU rules because of the risk or monopolies. Retail Energy costs in the Uk are lower than many other EU states, with margins of between 2-3%. What margin would be acceptable and still cover the cost of working capital?

[i]"Anti-Austerity- i.e. increase money to public services such as benefits and the NHS, salaries for public servants such as doctors and nurses should meet inflation."[/i]

NHS Doctors are the highest paid in Europe. The Liability associated with the unfunded NHS Pension scheme has risen to £240B - more than double the entire annual NHS budget and roughly comparable to the entire annual tax receipts from income tax. What would be a fair pay award in a period of sustained low / no inflation?

Why are the rebels putting up useless 'candidates' such as Angela Eagle and Owen Smith against Corbyn? Why aren't the likes of Hilary Benn and John Mann, Corbyn's biggest party enemies, standing against him?

Because the new rules have allowed for what is effectively an insurgency, and they're not idiots.

Choose your battles. You think that when Corbyn is inevitably re-elected, that that'll be the end of the matter? Or just the beginning?

It's tragic that the Labour Party has been reduced to this utter nonsense at this most critical time in our countries modern history

Clodhopper - I'm absolutely ****ing livid with everyone involved in this shambolic farce. But one thing we know, after the last 12 months... Jeremy Corbyn is not the answer. To anything. Because he will never ever be elected to the actual post that matters

@Robdixon, that isn't strictly true. EDF is owned by the French state. Not sure what the EU stance is on state ownership though its unlikely to be draconian- If a business is failing and it's in the public interest to buy it out then there must be rules to allow this.

A large share of Lloyds Bank was bought by the UK government in 2010 to stop it failing, Parts of it might still be government owned. I'm sure state ownership of Southern Rail would also apply, seeing as its a service that's stopped serving. East Coast Rail was also nationalised from 2009 to 2015. The EU didn't block this.

NHS doctors aren't the highest paid in Europe, they're not even the highest paid in the UK. Trainee doctors were targeted for pay cuts for lots of reasons, some deficit reduction based, some ideological- argument being that they should work in the private sector instead, thus weakening the NHS.

Yes our state pension scheme is something to be proud of, considering we're all capitalist swine.

I can't be bothered getting involved with this thread at present. I've just come from a local Momentum meeting this evening, the first one since the coup attempt, it was at least ten times larger than all the previous local Momentum meetings I've been to, which I found both very surprising and very encouraging.

It had a surprisingly diverse age range with quite a few younger members who did not appear to be particularly political, or left-wing for that matter. I would appear that Corbyn's appeal is that he offers them an alternative to the now very discredited British political class.

I think the massive coordinated campaign to discredit Corbyn is actually counterproductive and in the eyes of his supporters is simply increasing his creditably, more so than I expected.

I guess when the bias against him is so intense there has to be a point when it is no longer effective. As the Independent pointed out today :

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-media-bias-labour-mainstream-press-lse-study-misrepresentation-we-cant-ignore-bias-a7144381.html ]Our report found that 75% of press coverage misrepresents Jeremy Corbyn[/url]

As the article says :

[b][i]We all want and need a strong and a critical media, a watchdog of the powers that be, but maybe we do not need an attack dog that kills off anyone who challenges the status quo and dares to suggest we need a different kind of politics[/i][/b]

Nail on the head imo.

As I say I don't really want to get involved in petty arguments with Tory voters on this thread but this comment by David Graeber, an American and professor of anthropology at the LSE, and who isn't a "Corbynista" btw, provides imo the most concise and analytical description that I have so far read of what is behind the attempt to crush Corbyn.

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/05/political-establishment-momentum-jeremy-corbyn ]The elites hate Momentum and the Corbynites - and I’ll tell you why[/url]

I particularly liked this :

[b][i] If the opposition to Jeremy Corbyn for the past nine months has been so fierce, and so bitter, it is because his existence as head of a major political party is an assault on the very notion that politics should be primarily about the personal qualities of politicians.

It’s an attempt to change the rules of the game, and those who object most violently to the Labour leadership are precisely those who would lose the most personal power were it to be successful: sitting politicians and political commentators.[/b][/i]

This really is all about [u]power[/u]...... it's not even about left-wing politics.

Because the new rules have allowed for what is effectively an insurgency, and they're not idiots.

The policy of a one member, one vote electoral system was one that was widely supported by the blairites in order to reduce the influence of the unions. I remember David Miliband himself campaigning for the leadership on a platform of opening the party up to a wider support base in order to harness community and grassroots organisation through the use of registered supporters and open primaries. Say all you like about whether it's a good idea or not, but please don't try to claim this is something that's been imposed on them by the left. It may well be an insurgency, but it's a democratic one. The more Corbyn's opponents try to fix the rules and rig the result the more people will flock to him. If you want to be angry at anyone, have a look at these self-styled political experts in the PLP and the media who can't find a candidate to democratically beat someone they say is an incompetent buffoon.

"There's this thing called The Internet. It offers unprecedented access to information, at your fingertips.
Use it."

You're not being asked to phone everyone on the thread. Telling us using the interweb is fine. Just a link to all current policy. I assume its on the Labour or Corbyn websites but I can't see it.

So if momentum are attracting large amounts of people to meetings is it sufficent to influence a general election? Also what happens a local labour party level if momentum don't like the existing candidate - does momentum even fit inside the existing labour party?

Among many delusions highlighted by the Jezza debate...

Yes our state pension scheme is something to be proud of, considering we're all capitalist swine.

...is one of the most remarkable. Proud of a ponzi scheme that is unfit for purpose. Blimey, what next, public ownership of the commanding heights or a piss up at the local brewery?

I can't be bothered getting involved with this thread at present. I've just come from a local Momentum meeting this evening, the first one since the coup attempt

It was in Turkey?

I would appear that Corbyn's appeal is that he offers them an alternative to the now very discredited British political class.

Well its certainly 'an alternative'. But is ineffectual incompetence really 'The Alternative' we want? Given that when you look to the Tory's and the way they've just dealt with a potentially damaging leadership election, the words ruthlessly efficient' spring immediately to mind. i expect Theresa, given the total absence of an opposition, will set about enacting her agenda in the same fashion, while keeping her fingers crossed for Jezza's continued presence at the helm

Something to look forward to eh?

binners - Member
...Given that when you look to the Tory's and the way they've just dealt with a potentially damaging leadership election, the words ruthlessly efficient' spring immediately to mind...

"Ruthlessly efficient" right wing politicians are generally good for only a very small sector of society.

It was in Turkey?

😀

Binners, like Brexit, basic truths need to be hidden behind massive hyperbole eg, "coup...clean out"

Strip it down to the basics - the opposition is being led by someone with weak leadership skills who does not have the confidence of one of the party's constituent groups - the PLP. As a result, the party is failing to function properly and failing in its responsibility to provide and effective opposition to HMG.

It really isn't that difficult - just strip all the noise away.

The party s being led by someone the PLP wont follow even though he has a clear membership mandate and will, most likely , do again.
Whether he has weak leadership or not is not the point as they are in open mutiny because they don't like his policies and they think they can ignore the wishes of the party
JC may or may not be a great leader but no left wing candidate could lead the PLP as they think they control the party ad they get to decide.
One also has to strip away your noise to get to the truth as you are not quite as impartial as you like to pretend

Ruthlessly efficient" right wing politicians are generally good for only a very small sector of society.

Thats exactly the point I was making.

Whereas massively incompetent clueless politicians, who haven't a hope of getting elected, are good for a considerably smaller sector of society, as they'll never get to implement any policies anyway.

They might as well rename the Corbyn Labour Party, once he's re-elected as leader, the 'We're all Going Windsurfing Instead' Party, then all going windsurfing instead, for 20 years, for all the difference they'll make to anyones lives.

They were discussing this on 5 Live earlier. Some hardline, shouty Cobynist made the following statement, in all seriousness...

"We need to return to the 'Party's Principles' (TM). Yes, that might mean we're out of power for 10, 20 or even 30 years, but at least we'll have our party back!"

Well done on your priorities there comrade 😕

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"Clodhopper - I'm absolutely ****ing livid with everyone involved in this shambolic farce."

But all you're doing is crying on an internet forum. You're not actually trying to do something to help achieve change yourself, just moaning about others' perceived inability to do so. Whilst appearing to be pretty bloody clueless about things anyway.

What you should really be angry about, is the fact that your apathy has led to the situation where you now feel so frustrated about your inability to affect change, your impotency, that you need to lash out and blame those who aren't actually anything to do with why you find yourself in the situation you're in.

So; go and do something. Use the information available, to enlighten yourself. Look around you and see what you yourself could get involved in; local community groups, grass roots activism, campaigning for positive change, even consider direct action if you feel it necessary.

The sort of things Jeremy Corbyn has done his whole political career.

Or you could just sit on your arse and moan on the internet...

So; go and do something. Use the information available, to enlighten yourself. Look around you and see what you yourself could get involved in; local community groups, grass roots activism, campaigning for positive change, even consider direct action if you feel it necessary.

And you know that I don't do any of that already, of course? Because you know everything about everything, right? Only you and your fellow travellers know the one true path?

Because only tub thumping lefties, wrapped in their righteous shield of the purest form of socialism, the sword of truth and social justice wielded in their steely fist, ever do anything like that, right?

Your halo is dimming slightly there comrade. Best give it a bit of a polish. Its getting difficult to see from down here at the feet/hooves of this enormous high horse

Whether he has weak leadership or not is not the point as they are in open mutiny because they don't like his policies and they think they can ignore the wishes of the party

But Corbyn also ignores the wishes of his own party and did so on Trident, the GMB leader even called him out for it and others :-

"Labour's policy is to have a continuous at-sea deterrent. It beggars belief that so many MPs jump up and down shouting about party democracy, but aren't batting an eyelid about voting against the democratic will of their own party conference when the line doesn't suit."

PLP and Corbyn are as bad as each other on this.

But Corbyn also ignores the wishes of his own party and did so on Trident, the GMB leader even called him out for it and others :-

"Labour's policy is to have a continuous at-sea deterrent. It beggars belief that so many MPs jump up and down shouting about party democracy, but aren't batting an eyelid about voting against the democratic will of their own party conference when the line doesn't suit."

PLP and Corbyn are as bad as each other on this.

This.

"And you know that I don't do any of that already, of course?"

It's pretty obvious; you spend so much time on here, you can't possibly have any time to do anything else! 😆

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That might have worked, if it weren't for the fact you post more in one day than I do in a week! 😆

But Corbyn also ignores the wishes of his own party

But in his case, its called "conviction".

"@clodhopper remember that Corbyn was an unknown this time last year, the same as Smith is now. "

Hardly. Corbyn was well known as a back-bencher with strong opinions, whereas Owen Smith is very wishy-washy at best, and a bit 'meh' really. But the real architects of the coup will not put themselves in the firing line. They know that the'll simply be humiliated and their careers will be irreparably damaged.

But the real architects of the coup will not put themselves in the firing line. They know that the'll simply be humiliated and their careers will be irreparably damaged.

Are you allowed to divulge the true identities of these Machiavellian schemers comrade? Surely they must be brought to justice and explain their treacherous actions against the glorious leader to the people? Surely only then can rightous justice be administered

Brought to justice??

Cleaned out, binners, cleaned out. Its important to get the terms correct. This is the new political order, time to get with the game

They were discussing this on 5 Live earlier. Some hardline, shouty Cobynist made the following statement, in all seriousness...

So some mouthpiece who rang into 5-Live, which by definition means they have an over-inflated view of the importance of their own opinion, represents the entire left wing of the labour party?

Going back to yesterday's discussion on the differences between the tories and nu-labour. If, as you suggest, labour continues with the new labour strategy, what do you think they will do that will be majorly different from the tories?

How will he cope with a debutante PM in PMQ now?

She should be mince meat, surely?

JC just stood up in the House at PMQs to almost resounding silence behind him.

He's good at reading from a sheet. That's one tick in the box....

Ooh, getting tetchy now.

The faces of the shadow cabinet are a picture. Watson hasn't moved yet!

Why did he give up the attack line on Boris? Should have gone after that.