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We’re looking for examples of Equality/Socialism being the way forward.
Post war, pre 1979 UK.
We already know that capitalist meritocracies work fairly well.
Well that depends who you are.
Currently those in charge are actively punishing the most vulnerable members of society
If you are happy to benefit from the suffering of others, then I can see how you would think that.
Post war, pre 1979 UK.
There wasn't equality in the UK in 1978, it wasn't socialist and it was still a meritocracy.
Apart from that, great example!
Post war, pre 1979 UK.
Back when indoor plumbing, cars, heating, and TVs were a middle class luxury? We only had 3 TV channels and black and white TVs, and intermittent power outages. No internet. No amazon.
You want to go back to that? How about moving to Venezuela?
Back when indoor plumbing, cars, heating, and TVs were a middle class luxury? We only had 3 TV channels and black and white TVs, and intermittent power outages. No internet. No amazon.
You want to go back to that? How about moving to Venezuela?
....and how many working class people went to Uni back then?
...but it's academic because (as abysmal as it was) it wasn't an example of a country where everyone was "equal".
We’re looking for examples of Equality/Socialism being the way forward. We already know that capitalist meritocracies work fairly well.
No we dont. We know mixed economies work.
As for capitalist which variant do you mean?
As for meritocracy. That definitely hasnt been tried.
But equality was actively pursued. As was the principle of helping the most vulnerable.
As opposed to today, where our current leaders are increase inequality and punishing the worst off.
And if Corbyn is a Commie, which the right wingers insist is true, that makes all pre '79 governments of whatever flavour Commies too.
and how many working class people went to Uni back then?
And how many people now think that was a bad idea?
Most on here are happy to have benefited, but are in a huge rush to pull up the ladder so they can pay less tax.
Make your minds up.
No we dont. We know mixed economies work.
Yup, then I said capitalist I did indeed mean mixed. So great, we're already a mixed economy all is well without us kicking all the useful people out in the interests of equality.
As opposed to today, where our current leaders are increase inequality
Eh? In 1979 I would not have to to Uni. What percentage of people owned their own homes in 1979. The UK is *way* more equal now than it was in 1979. But yes, it's not equal, so we all still have an incentive to put more in and produce more. That why it works.
We're looking for examples of successful countries where everyone is equal.
We're still waiting.
Yup, then I said capitalist I did indeed mean mixed
Ah so you meant something complete different. Thats useful.
So great, we’re already a mixed economy all is well without us kicking all the useful people out in the interests of equality.
I have no idea what you are going on about here.
As for useful people. I think you are confusing highly paid with useful. The two arent always correlated.
What percentage of people owned their own homes in 1979.
55% compared to 65% now. As a fair amount of housing was effectively given away only to be leased back more expensively this gives a burden on the government not to mention private renters.
You might be.
Not everyone is naive enough to think that is possible.
What most sensible people strive for is equality of opportunity.
And post 79 Tories have consistently paid lip service to this ideal, whilst their policies have attempted to achieve the exact opposite.
55% compared to 65% now. As a fair amount of housing was effectively given away only to be leased back more expensively this gives a burden on the government not to mention private renters.
Yep, think it is even lower now at 63% so without the right to buy fiasco probably no change from the seventies so not a great measure for any capitalist 'success'
And for those that think capitalism is successful you must see all the problems where it creates a society that simply doesn't give a shit about others as long as you are okay. I would guess you are also in that camp.
Of course trying to accept that and increase equality must equal a failed socialist state. There cannot be anything in between...
We’re looking for examples of successful countries where everyone is equal.
As RustySpanner has pointed out you are demanding evidence for a scenario that no one is arguing for.
As a, claimed, believer in meritocracy you should be in firm agreement with them about equality of opportunity since that is the only way you can get a meritocratic society. Although the downsides of the rather extreme level equality of opportunity would need to be taken to would put most sensible people off.
They had Commie Con - it was called Jezfest, or for the true believers, Jizzfest.
It was all about how this time, socialism will work, certainly, not like all of those failed attempts of the past that weren't really *true* socialism.
They produced nothing and peed money up the wall, which is a little bit too ironic.
We’re looking for examples of successful countries where everyone is equal.
While we're waiting, can you supply a list of unsuccessful countries where everyone is equal?
While we’re waiting, can you supply a list of unsuccessful countries where everyone is equal?
East Germany is an obvious example. When you have to build a wall to stop people getting *out* you really have to accept you've failed.
Everyone was “equal” in the GDR? What are you on about?
Anyways… a mixed economy is what we have… how much that includes public services supplied based on need not ability to pay is a big discussion… as is what falls into the realm of public services, and who provides them, and if they should be a way of encouraging a meritocracy rather than allowing inherited position and wealth to embed privilege.
But this is all irrelevant, while Labour is neutered as it is by a leader who should have moved to another role two years ago. Parliament will be closed soon, and after the summer, the move even further to the right will really take off… at speed… to much outcry by politicians that have allowed Corbyn to “wait for the right moment”. It will be too late.
Anyone have a theory on why Corbyn is staying on. He doesn't want the job, The Corbynistas have calmed down to a point where he could walk away without one of his troops torching his house. John McDonnell has identified several people who the the leadership/Momentum would be happy to take over.
So why hasn't he gone and given his party a decent chance in the next election? Is it just to keep Unite happy? Or is he banking on a late election and holding on 'till the last minute to take as much flak for his successor? Or is he holding on to stop a remainer getting the leadership?
Theories?
Latest 'who would make the best PM' polling from Yougov
Allotment Bigot - 20
Mop topped ass - 38
Don't know - 38
#LongGame
LongGame
😀
Theories?
Doesn't he want it anymore?
Whatever his politics, he's a career politician, he wants to be PM.
This is his only shot, the only shot any of them get and it's a long road from party member, to nominee, to nominee to a role you might actually win, to councillor, to nominee MP, to nominee of a constituency you might actually win, to MP etc etc etc. I think like a lot of them, for all the good reasons they want the big job, they also want the legacy. Better to be Blair than Kinnock (I bet he never uses those words out loud!).
I'm not sure if he thinks he could ever be PM, in more normal times it would have been a landslide loss in 2010 and they'd have sacked him but he lost better than anyone really expected and couple that with a fairly Iron grip on the Party (if not his fellow MPs) he's going to carry on until his party loses faith in him.
I fancy he sees a snap election in the Autumn when Boris realises he hasn't got the numbers for a deal or no deal.The sad thing is that he and his fans seem so hell bent on maintaining the purity of their beliefs that they'd rather argue with former Labour voters like me (If I hear "show me in the manifesto blah blah blah" completely missing the point) and lose than accept that a Centric Party Leader with a broader appeal.
If Labour wanted to gain control of the Commons and form a Government, they could ask him to step down, appoint a leader with greater, broader appeal and form a manifesto around them. To quote Bonnie Tyler, voters are holding out for a Hero. An Obama-like, calm, measured, reassuring, statesmanlike.
Maybe that's why he's holding on, he's a real eurosceptic, always has been, maybe the idea of a Centric Pro-Euro Centre-Left Candidate at the head of a Labour government is more unappealing than than a Hard-Right Tory one, maybe, just maybe Boris will be so bad we'll all beg to be Socialists.
Cranberry, OOB and Binners are all Mark Francois and I collect my £5.
I’m not sure if he thinks he could ever be PM, in more normal times it would have been a landslide loss in 2010 and they’d have sacked him
Be a bit harsh sacking him for someone elses choices.
(If I hear “show me in the manifesto blah blah blah” completely missing the point) .
Could you elaborate on that?
and lose than accept that a Centric Party Leader with a broader appeal
The flaw here is that "centrist" and "broader appeal" really means appeal to a small number of swing voters and sod the core constituencies.
It also is a evershifting window as the right move further right and they follow.
Thats why mildly leftwing policies are now claimed to be "far left".
Its also why a large number of people feel completely disenfranchised and vote for lunatic ideas since, sod it, why not. Might end up crap but so has voting for the centrists and might end up better.
Doesn’t he want it anymore?
Whatever his politics, he’s a career politician, he wants to be PM.
Hearing John McDonnells version of how he was selected as the token leftie candidate I was pretty certain he didn't want it and he showed no sign of wanting it at the time.
If he *did* want it that would simply explain everything. Maybe ocams razor does have the right answer here.
just maybe Boris will be so bad we’ll all beg to be Socialists.
I wouldn't bet against that.
Cranberry, OOB and Binners are all Mark Francois and I collect my £5.
Yeah, because anyone who can see the glaringly obvious... that Corbyn is, and always has been, a totally useless, placard-waving sixth form protester, completely unsuited to being leader, is a member of the ERG and rabid right-winger.
The Irony of that statement (and yes, I know that lefties are really good at enjoying irony) is that Corbyn, as a lifelong rabid Brexiteer, has much in common with the delightful Mr Francois
Anyway... seems like Jezza has seen the threat of Boris and a no-deal Brexit and has lept into action
Jeremy Corbyn responds to renewed threat of no-deal Brexit with marathon jam-making session
(If I hear “show me in the manifesto blah blah blah” completely missing the point) .
Could you elaborate on that?
It's become a bit of a circular argument. A former-Labour voter like me might say "I'm not a fan of Corbyn's politics because he's a Socalist, and I'm not"
Usually one of the more vocal Corbynistas will argue "show me in the Manifesto these socialist policies then?"
Well Manifestos are usually fairly broad you can argue over the points within, but that's not the issue, the issue is his entire career has been based around a strong democratic socialist belief of shared ownership and protectionism. The ultimate goal of this movement is the ending of capitalism, whilst unchecked capitalism is always bad, consider the idea of a socialist 'utopia' doesn't appeal to many.
So it comes down to trust, consider his voting record on the EU, usually at odds with his party he voted against joining, he's voted against every bit of pro-EU legislation since joining, and pretty much checked out on the run up to the referendum. But when it suits, he can sort of sound pro-eu. Only weeks ago, they, finally, agreed they would push for a 2nd ref and campaign to remain, a few hours later we discovered that was only in the case of a Tory deal or no-deal... today however his puppet master John McDonald is hinting they might vote with a Tory deal and Corbyn is taunting Boris that people don't trust him to deliver Brexit.
Frankly, I don't trust him, a 70 year old career politician who, when suits, will make vague promises to do something he's apposed his entire career, only to fall back on the small print when it comes to take action.
and lose than accept that a Centric Party Leader with a broader appeal
The flaw here is that “centrist” and “broader appeal” really means appeal to a small number of swing voters and sod the core constituencies.
It also is a evershifting window as the right move further right and they follow.
Thats why mildly leftwing policies are now claimed to be “far left”.
Its also why a large number of people feel completely disenfranchised and vote for lunatic ideas since, sod it, why not. Might end up crap but so has voting for the centrists and might
Why not? I know it's not very socialist, but in Politics there are only winners and losers. The 'core constituencies' will vote Labour, no matter what. you win elections by winning over the marginals and swing voters. Stay in the bunker until the rest of the UK are ready to dig potatoes in collective farms, or accept some people actually want the chance to get ahead in life at the same time as helping those who can't and actually be able to do something about it.
Well, with the trigger ballot system now in place you can be sure that a lot of previously vocal dissenting MPs will be winding their necks in nicely. Listening to the party.
In other news I see Jo Swinson has joined the 6th form by tabling a pointless confidence motion. I look forward to a monty python picture on the other thread.
Massive crowds at Jezza's placardfest tonight. Yuge. Bigly.
and lose than accept that a Centric Party Leader with a broader appeal
The flaw here is that “centrist” and “broader appeal” really means appeal to a small number of swing voters and sod the core constituencies.
It also is a evershifting window as the right move further right and they follow.
Thats why mildly leftwing policies are now claimed to be “far left”.
Its also why a large number of people feel completely disenfranchised and vote for lunatic ideas since, sod it, why not. Might end up crap but so has voting for the centrists and might
Did you read the articles I posted in the Johnson thread dissonance?
The leader of the left, adored for his “authenticity” and destined for cult status, saw himself as a fighter for radical change. His transformed party was the biggest of its kind in Europe, and bursting with youthful vigour.
On the other side of the political spectrum lay the far right and its sinisterly absurd demagogues, thugs and ideological lunacies. Naturally, the leader of the left regarded these people with contempt and viewed his party as the only authentic resistance to them. For strategic reasons, however, he was willing to help them achieve a key part of their dream, which he shared. The dream was to break the loathsome old liberal order. Such a break, reasoned the leader, would create conditions under which the left would sweep to power and transform the country for the better.
Any similarities to Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party are far from coincidental. But the leader in question is Ernst Thälmann, chief of the German Communist Party (KPD) in the final years of the Weimar Republic. Thälmann is a tragic and disastrous figure. Dogmatic, passionate, stubborn and stupid, the former Hamburg dockworker divided the left and became one of the right’s first victims. Within weeks of Hitler’s takeover in 1933, he, along with thousands of other communists, was arrested and tortured. Unlike many of them, he survived in prison for 11 years before being murdered on Hitler’s orders in 1944.
In the 1930s, fear of Bolshevism persuaded many middle-class Germans to support Hitler (and led the Catholic Church to throw in its lot with fascism in Italy, Spain and elsewhere). These days, fear of Corbyn buttresses the worst Tory government in living memory. Worse, although we again face danger from the far right, the far left refuses to work with potential allies in the centre and centre left. Again. Instead, it spends much of its energy attacking them. The obsessive hatred for “Blairites”, “red Tories” and “centrists” is reminiscent of the KPD’s hatred of “social fascists” during the years when Nazism could have been stopped. If the phrase is new to you, you’d be forgiven for thinking it signified some form of fascism. It didn’t. “Social fascism” was the communist term for social democrats – and it helped pave the way to catastrophe.
With hindsight, his relaxed attitude to the threat of Hitler seems astonishingly foolish. For example, as Russel Lemmons shows in his 2013 book about Thälmann, Hitler’s Rival, when the Nazis made their electoral breakthrough in the Reichstag elections of 1930 (winning 18 per cent of the vote to become the second-largest party) Thälmann insisted that if Hitler came to power he was sure to fail and this would drive Nazi voters into the arms of the KPD.
https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2018/10/how-left-enabled-fascism
Borrowing heavily from the baleful and half-baked ideas of populist theorist Chantel Mouffe – as well as from the Nazi jurist Carl Schmitt – Corbynism’s division of the world into ‘friends’ and ‘enemies’ requires regular heresy hunts in order to sustain itself.
Moreover, capitalism itself is viewed not as a material system of production, but rather as an unfolding moral-religious story in which one side – the ‘99%’, the working class, the ‘oppressed’ – is regarded uncritically as innately ‘good’, while blame for society’s ills is placed squarely on the shoulders of ‘them’ – the bankers, the ‘1%’, and in the darker reaches of the Corbyn movement, a sinister cabal of wealthy Jews.
As we have discovered over the past three-and-a-half years, this deeply personalised interpretation of capitalism easily lends itself to conspiracy theories about the malevolence of particular groups and individuals. Once this group of permanent outsiders is required to define an ideology, the search for enemies continues without end. As populist governments around the world have demonstrated, the triumph over one adversary invariably necessitates the creation of another, as well as the never-ending expansion of categories such as ‘fascist’ to include anyone with whom the party or movement disagrees.
As orthodox religion fades away in the developed world, it has been replaced by a Manichean style of politics that retains the moral fervour of its progenitor, as well as its teleological faith in progress.
These competing tendencies – in particular Corbynism and Blue Labour – hope to ride the ascendant wave of anti-liberalism for electoral gain. In this they are unwittingly aiding and abetting the very nationalist forces that – in a familiar story – will turn their sights on the workers’ movement once the formal niceties and civility of liberal democracy have been dispensed with.
https://unherd.com/2019/01/corbyns-intolerant-populism/
I'm experiencing deja vu. And it's not because I was present in 1930s Germany.
I reposted it because I want to know whether any of you actually have a coherent response to those articles as opposed to either:
A) Going silent.
B) Calling people Tories or Zionists.
C) Stating that it was them mean bullying Tories that started the populism. As if just being the one to carry it on and escalate it makes you morally superior and less responsible.
You’re wasting your time.
If there was a leadership election tomorrow the sixth formers who now make up the Labour membership would carry on ignoring the real world and vote the bearded messiah in yet again.
As he’s done so brilliantly so far in delivering their socialist utopia
But who needs reality?
Just keep reading the ‘Red Labour’ tweets and everything is just brilliant. Especially the proposals for rural bus services
Ideological purity is all that matters here comrade
... and rural bus services, obviously
Game-changer
Every political commentator seems to think that Boris will call a snap election
Let’s face it, with Jeremy Corbyn as (allegedly) the labour leader, who wouldn’t?
It’s a no brainier
So the promised socialist utopia may end up looking like another 5 years of Tory rule?
Fantastic! Something to look forward to, eh?
FFS!!
I used to think that I was reasonably intelligent, but I’ve come to the conclusion that I must be fairly stupid. I recognise the words that some people are using, but I have no idea what they are trying to say.
Binners: is that your username because you like to trash talk? You are forever belittling Corbyn for his impotence, but I cannot remember once any suggestions you have made of how or what he could do. I cannot remember any previous opposition party that was able to deliver anything, they are not in government.
So the promised socialist utopia may end up looking like another 5 years of Tory rule?
Says the man who’s going to vote Libdem in a labour-Tory marginal.
You are forever belittling Corbyn for his impotence, but I cannot remember once any suggestions you have made of how or what he could do.
You do appear to be struggling a bit with the words because for page after page we've been crying out for Corbyn to reflect the opinion of members, voters, and MPs and come out whole-heartedly for remain. 8:10, r4 'let's put an end to this Tory experiment to unite their party and sort out their internal problems with Europe by irrevocably damaging our country's economy and standing around the world, and have a general election or a people's vote, wherein Labour will campaign for remain. The money spent on this vanity project already could have built a number of new hospitals, homed the homeless, and fed the hungry. This has to stop. Labour, and our other friends in parliament, can and will stop it'.
There you go, I've written it for him. FFS.
Cranberry, OOB and Binners are all Mark Francois and I collect my £5.
Ahh, but this is socailism, my friend, red in tooth and claw, with a top rate of tax of 80% and a surcharge on "unearned" income of 16%.*
If you'd like, I'd be happy to meet up with you and hand over the remaining 20p in person and explain how the Brain Drain happened in the UK and the damage it did?
* like the last time Extremist Labour were in power
Yeah... pretty much that.
Cheers Del
Its hardly like we've been being cryptic about it. Corbyn, with his endless fence-sitting and procrastination and if, if, if, if, if... caveats about supporting a second referendum, or supporting remain are draining labour support.
And rightfully so
Corbyn came in saying he would restore democracy to the party. Well, the party's MP's, members and voters are pro-remain by a huge margin. He completely refuses to represent this, therefore the man is a liar and a fraud.
So the promised socialist utopia may end up looking like another 5 years of Tory rule?
Says the man who’s going to vote Libdem in a labour-Tory marginal.
See above as to why millions of us did just that. I simply won't vote for a pro-Brexit party, because a Corbyn Labour government, led by an arch-Brexiteer, would still pursue a red unicorn Brexit, irrespective of the opinions of its MP's, members and voters, so we'd still be ****ed!
There are millions like me, who have been fooled once, and then subsequently had "80% of voters supported pro-brexit parties" constantly thrown back in our faces.
We won't be fooled again!
The Corbyn project think they are on to a winner, they will get the Brexit they have long campaigned for and be able to say "it's a Tory Brexit and our Brexit would have been so much better" whilst distancing themselves from any blame for the post Brexit fallout
Cake and eat it in a true Boris manner
Magic Grandad never got the better of the personality-vacuum that was the Maybot.
He was the council health and safety inspector to her middle manager in an insurance firm.
Boris must be rubbing his hands with glee at the prospect of dropping jokes about the IRA, Chairman Mao, antisemitism and Hamas every 30 seconds.
And when faced with it, Jezza just does his surly teenager look and never has a retort because he’s utterly humourless, terminally unimaginative and is clearly totally incapable of thinking on his feet
He got away with it, just, while his opponent was exactly the same, but I suspect the school bully is about to take great pleasure in repeatedly flushing his head down the toilet.
^^^^ sadly, this
Again, sadly, Corbyn can look forward to more Wednesday lunchtime beatings like that. Let's hope he can punch his way out of trouble with some more compelling questions from Beryl from Ashton-under-Lyne who is concerned about fly-tipping.
Swirlies all round for the opposition front bench. Mac The Knife almost stormed out yesterday because BoJo pointed out that an extremist fired him for being too extremist.
It is going to be beautiful to watch.