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Ta Ernie. Its utterly obvious what you say is true and that there is almost notyhing in labour policy that is not firmly in the european social democratic tradition. Indeed many of the labour policies are accepted by both right of centre adn left of centre parties all over europe. Such things as essential services being under state control, housing for all at fair prices. Worker representation on company boards.
We remain a low tax, low wage, low spend on healthcare country
Nothing in labour policy that isn’t in the European Social Democratic Tradition?
Other than leaving the European Social Democratic Tradition
Right ho... crack on...
Other than leaving the European Social Democratic Tradition
Leaving a political party tradition is the same as leaving the EU?
What Corbyn, Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez are doing is rejecting the "Third Way" which Blair became a champion of - and are clearly moving towards actual traditional Social Democratic values and not the "tradition" you refer to that is only 20 or so years old.
What you are advocating is a neoliberal movement. And that's fine, and there are parties out there advancing that but not Labour.
All I’m advocating is not sitting there, watching casually by with your thumb up your arse while the most extreme right wing project this country has ever seen unfolds around you, with you nodding it through.
Maybe I have unrealistic ambitions for the Labour Party
Still.... Palestine, eh? And Venezuela... the stuff that really matters...,
Binners is Mark Francois and I claim my £5.
No - you just hate Corbyn so much that what you see is not what is actually happening. Its not just Corbyn tho - the whole party is split and 70 or so MPS are against a second ref. Mind you the labour party did whip for a second ref twice and almost all of them voted for it - including Corbyn
He’s ****ing useless! Has been from day one of his alleged leadership
Do you not look at the chaos we’re in, and back at the utterly shambolic way it’s been handled, and think “well... if we’d actually had an opposition worthy of the name during that period....?”
Still.... those placards aren’t going wave themselves... and IRAQ!
binners
He’s ****ing useless! Has been from day one of his alleged leadership
And yet on 'day one of his alleged leadership' you were rather supportive of him.
binners
It’s no wonder they’ve come out against Corbyn. He’s as terrifying and alien to them as someone northern, working class, or scottish. They like to stay in their nice, comfortable, upper middl class, bollocks-talking, London-centric metropolitan bubble, just like the Labour Party
binners
Say what you like about Corbyn, at least he’s communicated what it is he’s about. Love it or hate it, its fairly unambiguous.
The others? Anyone got a the faintest idea…?
Back then it was all Blair's fault.
binners
The mess the labour party is in is all down to Blair. Another thing we’ve got to thank him for. Due to his messiah complex, and his intolerence of free-thinking or disent, he hollowed out the party from the inside.
So perhaps not day one, eh? Pick another day when Corbyn suddenly became the target of your daily explosive rants?
Those posts weren't difficult to find btw, they all come from the start of this thread.
And binners, with your impressive ability to preform political acrobatic stunts, coupled with a total lack of shame, you really should consider a career as a professional politician. Mind you, you would need to ease off the ranting, that wouldn't look good on the telly.
there is almost notyhing in labour policy that is not firmly in the european social democratic tradition
Apart from the minor matter of brexit, the issue isn't policy (which won't be implemented from opposition) it's isolated, tactically utterly inept, and generally shite 'leadership'...
I'm surprised that anyone still thinks Jeremy Corbyn is capable of being a Prime Minister.
Most of his Shadow Cabinet resigned, now he has some very lightweight MPs on his front bench. How Diane Abbot has made it to still be there is beyond me. She is one of the few MPs I could never ever vote for. I was told some very disturbing things about her attitude to some people in her Constituency from people who had no axe to grind. I mentioned this 10 pages or so back.
Of the most toxic, I think John Mcdonell does talk some sense occasionally. He certainly seems more sincere than Corbyn, and actually answers questions rather than trying to dodge them.
What should be damning for him is the total inability to get a consistent Poll lead against one of the most incompetent Governments in history.
Labour should be 20% higher than the Tories in the Polls now. If we had an election next week, they may just scrape in. Have it in 6 months time, no chance, as the Tories will have their new leader and be all smiles with promises of what they will be doing etc.
Labour, and Corbyn in particular, have not got enough sense, or quality of staff to compete in their current state.
I’m surprised that anyone still thinks Jeremy Corbyn is capable of being a Prime Minister.
And yet you end your post with : "If we had an election next week, they may just scrape in."
The problem with Corbyn is right from the start he was attacked by the right wingers in his party in a way I have never seen a party leader attacked. This then allowed the press to form a false narrative about him that too many of you have bought. I actually think his consensual and collegiate style would make for good PM. Unfortunatly the damage is done and its utterly disgusting that labour MPs did this. Some of them would clearly rather be in opposition that in a Corbyn led government.
Its as bad as scottish labour and their non agression pact with the tories that actually meant May remained in power. Without that we would have had 8 or so less tory MPs and thus a labour government. The sight of labour party woikers cheering tory gains is something I can never stomach.
Yes, they may just get in, not due to their great policies (what are they?), but because the other parties are so bad.
Dont think the Brexit party will repeat their success in a GE, they wont, it was a protest vote 2 weeks ago, and the majority of their votes will go to the Tories.
The point still stands, Labour should be so far clear in the opinion polls now that the Tories should be flying a white flag. They arent. The Tories will suddenly pick up a lot more support when they have a new leader, and Corbyn cannot compete.
It isnt a good thing, Labour should be stronger than this, and be a credible opposition.
The Tories will suddenly pick up a lot more support when they have a new leader, and Corbyn cannot compete.
Are you sure about that? If Boris Johnson becomes Tory leader you are convinced, with complete certainty, that he will defeat Corbyn in a general election? Remember, there was complete certainty that Teresa May would win a landslide victory against Corbyn, that was the ONLY reason that she called an early election. But she didn't even win a majority, let alone the universally predicted landslide.
The reason his enemies inside the Labour Party can't get rid of him, apart from the fact that they are mostly discredited Blairites, is because Labour hasn't actually done very badly under his leadership. The predicted Labour meltdown in national elections has never materialised.
Labour should be so far clear in the opinion polls now that the Tories should be flying a white flag.
It's hilarious. May has been publicly kicked out of the leadership of the Tory party because she's so utterly dreadful. ...and on the day she loses the leadership in abject humiliation her personal approval rating is *higher* than Corbyn's.
instead of Labour electoral armageddon Labour’s share of the vote increased by more than any time since the end of World War 2 and the Conservatives lost their parliamentary majority. ... So what the **** happened?
Theresa May happened. She turned out to be a massive can of vote repellent.
BTW :
Labour should be so far clear in the opinion polls now
Don't put too much emphasis on opinion polls. But if you are really that interested bear in mind that the Tories haven't led in an opinion poll for over 2 months, in that same period Labour has led in 28 opinion polls.
outofbreath until the day they replace general elections with "personal approval rating" your point is meaningless.
And if the scots labour party had not shacked up with the scots tories to attack the SNP we would not have had a tory government.
Too many labour politicians have forgotten who the enemy is. Its not the SNP, Its not Corbyn. It the tories
That is why no amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party that inflicted those bitter experiences on me. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin”
Nye Bevan
Labour should be so far clear in the opinion polls
I keep reading this, and it's so ridiculous I have to laugh. It's like the brexit vote never happened, and we're in a parallel 1990s universe where Tony Blair has conned everyone into thinking he's a leftwinger and Brian Cox is still playing keyboards. For christ's sake, times have changed, politics is unrecognisable to the days when opposition parties held 20 point poll leads, and the only policies that mattered were taxes, schools and NHS funding.
most extreme right wing project this country has ever seen unfolds around you, with you nodding it through.
Then and you I have different views of the most extreme right wing project this country has ever seen.
And that's where this debate had gotten all messed up.
The EU may have started with some sort of social democratic intention but has very much moved to serving big business over time. (I'm not saying it's all bad and I did vote remain for the sake of focusing on other issues, and stability.)
As power as shifted from trade unionism to the financial sector over the last 30 odd years. I would say that was one of the most extreme right wing projects. We had all the evidence we need in 2008.
actually think his consensual and collegiate style would make for good PM.
Yep, hugely overlooked.
All this centrist talk of lack of being a statesman...
He as a moral compass, and that's what we need.
It's funny how we are all in love and protective of the most socialist construct we have (had) - the NHS. But we don't want that to work in other sectors.
And stop using Venezuela as any sort of example. Venezuela has a large private sector and a reliance of oil prices for its success - it has both thrived and failed under different regimes. Not just because of socialism - which wasn't even truly enacted.
The AS claims explained:
actually think his consensual and collegiate style would make for good PM
Best to not talk to any Labour MPs, especially female ones, if you want to keep this fantasy alive.
mind you the labour party did whip for a second ref twice and almost all of them voted for it – including Corbyn
For sure I keep bringing this up too. Why do people ignore this?
There is no appetite for it in Parliament. Just jump ship Chuka, fog horn austerity Soubry and Campbell Iraq noise box. Not one of them particularly democratic.
Remember the Tories largely vote against everything that has been any sort of compromise.
Consensual and collegiate style?
😂
Best not tell those about to be airbrushed out of politburo photographs for insufficient loyalty to the glorious leader
Looks like the two main political parties are all "champions" of brexit now, in their own definition, having seen the Tory by-election result at Peterborough. 😀
The race is now on to see who will get to No.10 first with brexit as campaign slogan in the next GE. 😄
Consensual and collegiate style?
Emily Thornberry perhaps you have a point - as she's been decent overall, was maybe put on the spot recently.
Tom Watson however has done nothing but oppose Corbyn throughout this entire process. He's clearly out to undermine Corbyn using all manner of inappropriate noises.
And the vile Hodge well she often threatens to quit. Hurry up.
So what would you do?
I think a reshuffle is more than fair.
Watson is in step with the party members, and his job as deputy leader is literally to be the voice of the party at the "high table". If he just shut up, and ignored the members, he'd be rightly pushed out of his role by them. The deputy leader is not appointed by the leader, but by the party, and has their own mandate. They serve the party, not the leader. On some of the biggest issues facing the party, his voice has been louder and far clearer than the leader's. It's up to people to decide if Watson has been too outspoken, or Corybn too quiet, on these issues. It's clear which you've chosen @Rone, others will see it differently.
Watson is in step with the party members, and his job as deputy leader is literally to be the voice of the members at the “high table”. If he just shut up, and ignored the members, he’d be rightly pushed out if his role by them.
You think he's used the appropriate forum for that?
You don't mean his own poll he ran from his website?
https://fullfact.org/europe/labour-mps-brexit-poll-meaningless/
The one where he doesn't have a clue whether anyone was actually a member.
He's a liability.
And the icing on the cake... A twitter poll of around 9000 v membership of approx 500,000.
That's disingenous.
It just looks like anyone who isn’t an enthusiastic Brexiteer, like Jeremy and the (non-elected) cabal around him is about to get the chop
... in a consensual and collegiate way, obviously comrade 😂
enthusiastic Brexiteer, like Jeremy
Well they're all still there currently comrade.
And the icing on the cake… A twitter poll of around 9000 v membership of approx 500,000.
Well, he's calling for an official vote by the Membership on that… which would mean no more rubbish polls required. Would be a good step. And before we hit the "one month to go" count down of desperation again in September. But you've made this specifically about Brexit now… so would be better to make that point in the other thread instead. Will reply further there if you do. Over and out.
Fair point but it's hard to avoid that based on the context Binners supplied.
(Do you know I'm embarrassed to admit I mix you and Kimbers up when scanning posts!)
Another benchmark ticked off on the journey to our socialist utopia...
Jeremy Corbyn lambasted by Labour MPs in ‘worst meeting as leader’
Given the standard so far, it does make you wonder just how bad that was.
Still... better than spending your time saying anything publicly about the most likely future PM proposing taxing us all more to give tax cuts to the rich eh? Priorities and all that....
Still… better than spending your time saying anything publicly about the most likely future PM proposing taxing us all more to give tax cuts to the rich eh?
Why would you say anything about that, as opposition I would want an idiot like Boris to be leader to give me best chance of winning next election.
I would want an idiot like Boris to be leader to give me best chance of winning next election.
Underestimating populist sentiment is what got us into the present mess. Boris is undoubtedly a complete bellend, but his brand of bellicose buffoonery will go down extremely well with the electorate, sadly.
binners: Jeremy Corbyn lambasted by Labour MPs in ‘worst meeting as leader’
In JC's defence on Europe the leadership of both big parties cannot win on the Brexit. There is nothing they can do that isn't electoral suicide. So it's easy for the MPs to say 'Take a stand and do X' (often because their constituencies have given them a clear lead) but the leaders aren't free to do that. A vague policy is probably the best Corbyn can do. To be fair until he became leader he *did* have a clear view on the EU for about 40 years. So that's one issue he can't reasonably be beaten up on.
But yeah, he's generally dreadful and under *any* other leadership Labour would have walked the last election.
Boris is undoubtedly a complete bellend, but his brand of bellicose buffoonery will go down extremely well with the electorate, sadly.
I don't rate Boris at all (and I don't think he's gonna win the leadership) but if I am forced to choose between Boris or Corbyn it's going to be Boris every time. (Especially since I read a Bio of him which reckoned he's secretly a Europhile, which given his family background wouldn't be a surprise, wheras Corbyn is famously eurosceptic.)
So Boris isn't just relying on his stage persona being popular, he's got Corbyn to help him.
*any* other leadership Labour would have walked the last election.
I suppose it would be pointless to remind you that Corbyn achieved the largest increase in vote share of any labour leader since Atlee in the 2017 election, not to mention overturning a 20 point poll deficit? It's an exercise in extreme whataboutery whether anyone else would have achieved more then or now, but at least admit what he did in the 2017 election was without precendent.
Boris is undoubtedly a complete bellend, but his brand of bellicose buffoonery will go down extremely well with the electorate, sadly.
I think the opposite is true and most voters think he is an idiot. He will only go down well with the tory membership who will vote him in as leader.
I suppose it would be pointless to remind you that Corbyn achieved the largest increase in vote share of any labour leader since Atlee in the 2017 election, not to mention overturning a 20 point poll deficit? It’s an exercise in extreme whataboutery whether anyone else would have achieved more then or now, but at least admit what he did in the 2017 election was without precendent.
May turned out to a be a large can of anti vote spray. [1]
Corbyn knew he wasn't going to win so could have a giveaway manifesto safe in the knowledge he'd never have to deliver.
With those electoral advantages Labour should have walked it. In fact they lost. It's really hard to see any other explanation for that loss than the Labour leadership.
And votes only count so far. Seats are what matters. If Corbyn could take personal credit for increasing Labour votes he's clearly increasing them in seats that already vote labour which isn't how you win Elections.
[1] In spite of that the Conservatives *also* increased their vote share in 2017, and I don't think anyone's given her credit for that any more than I'd give Corbyn credit for Labours result.
I think the opposite is true and most voters think he is an idiot. He will only go down well with the tory membership who will vote him in as leader.
Hated, by Tory MPs.
Loved by Tory Party Members.
The electorate? Who knows? Clearly the MPs think he'll be popular with Voters because the sole case for making him leader is that they think he could win - they certainly don't rate him as a candidate.
Loved by Tory Party Members.
With an average age of 80. Add in bringing back hanging and compulsory national service and they couldn't lose.
The electorate? Who knows?
Not with an average age of 80 and polling suggests as many people hate him as like him (including tory voters)
He will only go down well with the tory membership who will vote him in as leader.
I know a few Tory members, only one of them actually thinks Johnson is any good should be leader.
I know a few Tory members, only one of them actually thinks Johnson is any good should be leader.
Funny you should say that, I know one Tory party member and I haven't discussed this with them but I can't imagine they'd rate Boris. Maybe the whole 'popular with grass roots' thing is a myth.
Kerley,
In 2017, the average ages for party members of Conservative, Labour, SNP and Liberal Democrats ranged between 52 and 57
Sauce;