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Depends on what Brexit
Have a read up and report back with your findings.
Please don't.
Whatever the IFS say having a self proclaimed Marxist running the country's finances isn't going to restore economic credibility
Prejudice.
Re the taxation, would the increased spending grow the economy? Even if it increases inflation it brings down debt held in GBP doesn't it?
TAXRESEARCH.ORG.UK Same old crap - Labour put forward polices and all of a sudden everyone is a financial and economic expert.
Tories put forward policies and the costs are not questioned.
[quote=kerley said]Same old crap - Labour put forward polices and all of a sudden everyone is a financial and economic expert.
excluding Diane Abbott obvs.
having a self proclaimed Marxist running the country's finances isn't going to restore economic credibility
You keep mentioning this, jamba, but as a matter of interest, how much of Marx's work have you actually read? Or are you just blethering?
(Yes, that was a rhetorical question)
McDonnell talking about the plan to scrap tuition fees said "I call it socialism."
So he might be a self proclaimed Marxist, but he's not issuing Marxist policies, is he?
Some light-ish relief that hopefully folk on all sides may enjoy:
I take being called a Marxist as a compliment. Still waiting for someone to explain to me how a capitalist society is better for the average person.
uk corporation tax is at a record low right now
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and below average
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of course turning us into a tax haven is a dream of many right wingers
Corporation Tax is arguably worthless theee days with countries vying to be the low cost centre. Junker turned Lixembourg into Europe's richest country (gdp/head) that way. Any graphs have to be relative
@molgrips Common Sense. Just show me a single succeasful country run by Maxists. A real country not a utopian fantasy
uk corporation tax is at a record low right now
Isn't that only half the story?
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Corporation Tax is arguably worthless theee days
£40bn in 2013/14. Worthless?
Common Sense. Just show me a single succeasful country run by Maxists. A real country not a utopian fantasy
1) Anyone who uses the words 'common sense' to try and win an argument has actually lost it already.
2) There can quite easily be a big difference between someone's personal philosophy and how they run a country. McDonnell might agree with Marx but wouldn't necessarily be trying to convert the UK to a Marxist state.
3) There are lots of successful countries that are strongly influenced by Marx. Scandinavian social democracies - you know, the ones that keep coming top in quality of life and happiness surveys? And have low inequality? I'd even go so far as to say the UK was strongly influenced by Marxism when it created the NHS.
Still waiting for someone to explain to me how a capitalist society is better for the average person.
Its better, because its based on a principle that actually works (albeit with flaws).
I wasn't very familiar with Marxism, so I unleashed the power of google and started to educate myself a little. Didn't take long before I came across this little nugget of joy:
Marx explained his belief that, in such a society, each person would be motivated to work for the good of society despite the absence of a social mechanism compelling them to work, because work would have become a pleasurable and creative activity
Now using myself as your average person, i can tell you for sure that work isn't pleasurable, nor do I (or would I) do it for the good of society.
I like riding my bike, playing computer games and watching the odd TV show with a triple measure of Highland Park, and if our current mechanisms tying us to a NEED to work (home ownership, pension, utility bills etc) didn't exist, then I just wouldn't work.
So lets assume that 20% of the population just really can't be arsed with working, but thats all good, bacause its societies job to provide for us because they all REALLY like working. How long do you suppose before the other 80% get bitter about the 20% of folks watching netflix all day in their underwear? And when the injustice really settles in and more people decide they'll not bother working? What percentage of slackers before the whole thing falls on its head?
And then what? Use the military to compel us to work? At that point the idea has pretty much failed already.
So lazyness has already broken the ideal, but what about when our enthusiastic workforce realises they all get the same regardless of the work they do?
Marx intended the initial part of his slogan, "from each according to his ability" to suggest not merely that each person should work as hard as they can, but that each person should best develop their particular talents.
At what point does Jimmy the cyber security expert responsible for fending off those terrible capitalists think 'well maybe i deserve a bit more' than Bob who's sole responsibility is not letting the fries burn at the fast food joint?
So whilst i've got a lot more reading to do to educate myself on the subject, i'll summarise: Marxism - great idea if it wasn't for those pesky humans.
I suppose it depends on how you define work…
Right, ignoring fantasy politics, I want to add to Ninfan's point about Corp Tax…
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Question: Fifeandy.
What compels the already million / billionaires and already well off to keep on working?
ISTR Marx had quite a lot of ideas. We can incorporate some of them, but not others. You don't have to sign up to the whole package, you can pick and choose.
So we want some socialist elements and some capitalist ones - which we currently do.
So it's all a bit silly to bang on about Marxism in this context. We should talk about policies.
What compels the already million / billionaires and already well off to keep on working?
because they are hooked on being successfull and making even more money, not matter that they don't really need it.
Fifeandy is completely right, there are a lot of lazy people around, and a lot of jobsworths.
What is the point of spending hours of your own time developing your skills to earn more money, or taking big financial risks that might pay off later, to be no better off than all the slackers that watch their hours, or worse?
Most people think like that.
So whilst i've got a lot more reading to do to educate myself on the subject, i'll summarise: Marxism - great idea if it wasn't for those pesky humans.
As you said, you have quite a bit of reading to do. Might make sense to read Marx if you actually want to find out about Marxism?
So no one answering fifeandy's questions then? I thought answering the questions posed was vitally important based on posts a couple of pages ago. Or is the reality fifeandy is spot on about the average motivation of the average worker.
If I was earning the same as the people who work for me do I'd soon jack it in, the expectations on me are far higher and i certainly don't work for the fun of it. If I had a choice I'd be out building mountain bike trails. It's what I do for fun and satisfaction but it certainly doesn't put a roof over my head.
McDonnell didn't describe himself as a communist, did he?
Nope. He said he's a Marxist.
@molgrips look forwards, companies are offshoring more and more the whole internet model encourages it. As I have posted before I think the corporate tax regime needs a complete overall. We have much more control now we'll be out of the EU. Also look how receipts have gone UP when tax rates have gone DOWN. A few of us have been making similar points for the longest time here, its a tricky balance.
Marxism. Well McDonnell certainky thinks profit is a bad thing as does Corbyn. The latter wants to "reclaim" all the money he thinks has been "stolen" from "the workers" by the "bosses/bankers" etc etc
Corbyn is the communist, McDonnell is the Marxist and Abbott is just a bit thick. 😆
The latter wants to "reclaim" all the money he thinks has been "stolen" from "the workers" by the "bosses/bankers" etc etc
#jambafact
If I had a choice I'd be out building mountain bike trails. It's what I do for fun and satisfaction but it certainly doesn't put a roof over my head.
I thought the argument was about whether people would work without the fear of not having a roof over their head?
Your example is of a job that gives joy to others yet isn't rewarded with decent pay.
Perhaps Marxism has something to offer you?
But enough about fantasy politics…
No my example is of a job that doesn't exist because people aren't prepared to pay for it. In my example I'd get more satisfaction from doing an economically inactive role, for others that would be sitting on the sofa.
Also look how receipts have gone UP when tax rates have gone DOWN.
yep by helping big business escape tax and smaller ones to pay it
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THECONVERSATION.COM Whenever people ask a question on here about where to go in Thailand or how to fix a carburettor or whatever, there are always lots of people providing helpful answers. For free.
Closet Marxists!!!
We have much more control now we'll be out of the EU
We have total control of direct taxes and VAT can't be lowered past a certain amount.
[url=
draft of Labour's general election manifesto has been leaked, including plans to nationalise the energy industry and scrap tuition fees.
The BBC has seen a copy of the document, which has not yet been formally signed off, with the Mirror and the Daily Telegraph also reporting details.
These include nationalising railways, bus firms and the Royal Mail and renewing the Trident weapons system.
Labour would not comment on leaks.[/url]
not a huge revelation, still embarrassing, all sensible stuff really (apart from Trident renewal 😉 )
Who thinks the utilities, mail and railways should be nationalised then?
molgrips - Member
Who thinks the utilities, mail and railways should be nationalised then?
not sure about utilities but 68% apparently....
YOUGOV.CO.UK I have no idea why utilities should be privatised. The mess we have now is not really beneficial is it?
Utilities, not really sure, but don't really care if my electricity keeps coming without getting more expensive.
Mail, didn't really notice when it was privatised, so doubt i'd notice the change back either.
Rail, can't get any worse so nothing to lose.
Mail, didn't really notice when it was privatised, so doubt i'd notice the change back either.
Rail, can't get any worse so nothing to lose.
So there were never morning and afternoon post deliveries where you live, or for that matter, post offices? Or sorting /collecting offices for missed mail in multiple handy local locations?
Nationalisation the great leap backwards comrades.
Yes agree rail is a bit of a mess, but that's successive governments at fault for not doing their bit to setup and maintain proper management of the private companies, if they can't get the strategic bit right then why people expect them to get operations right as well is beyond me. BR was pretty abysmal.
Post office, the world has changed, people don't use the post or post offices to the same extent anymore, we don't need 1930s levels of delivery. Social services the Post Offices provide can be and have been incorporated into other public offices. Why we should be supporting mom and pop operations who are clearly uneconomic and have no willingness to change was unfathomable. Couple that with arcane working practices within the Post Office, back to union control, no thanks
Utilities, privatisation started huge investment in infrastructure, the water industry in particular made great strides in cleaning up waste water rather than dumping raw sewage deliberately into rivers and seas, after decades of public ownership where Victoriana practices had been maintained. Do you think we'do have they levels of renewables if the government had been in charge, new technology, doing things differently, not really a trait of any government. Again if anything is wrong it's the government oversight.
In theory Nationalisation should give us better services at cheaper prices as the providers only have to concentrate on the service and don't need to make a profit. In reality we get vested interests in the unions and moribund management who waste vast sums of money, bit like councils still are today.
Jezzas true colours and total detachment from what history has taught us clear as day.
The Trident commitment must have stung a bit though.
Oh well might as well recycle it now, total waste of paper.
Our rail is already nationalised. It's just other nations reaping the rewards.
i'll summarise: Marxism - great idea if it wasn't for those pesky humans.i'll summarise: Marxism - great idea if it wasn't for those pesky humans.
Capitalism, bad idea made even worse by the pesky greedy humans.
And you say it is better, because its based on a principle that actually works (albeit with flaws). How do you know a more Marxist approach wouldn't work (albeit with flaws) ?
And as molgrips has said, you don't take the whole thing letter by letter but you use the basis of it.
Admittedly that is not going to be easy in a country/world where the greed of the few has taken us a long way down a capitalist path. It is clearly a massive change for people to want to work because they see the need for it as part of their society so everyone can benefit from each other and not have consumerism as the be all and end all but it is not a coincidence that where there is more equality/fairness people are happier and more content.
Our rail is already nationalised. It's just other nations reaping the rewards.
Where I live near the German/Dutch border, we're absolutely flooded with brand new trains, new track, new stations and even new pedestrian bridges over the tracks. Where's this money all coming from?
Yes agree rail is a bit of a mess, but
Yeah but...
I fancy a last minute trip to Edinburgh this weekend...I live in Bristol. I think I'll let the train take the strain...it'll only cost me around £400.
I fancy a last minute trip to Paris this weekend...I live in Lyon. At £98, the train is a no-brainer. Yay SNCF.
I'd love to do a bit of sight-seeing in Hamburg this weekend. I live in Stuttgart. Oh, look, I can do that for just over €210. Yay Deutsche Bahn (part privately owned, so I'm sure that's what's driving the price down isn't it?).
Yeah, but...
but that's successive governments at fault for not doing their bit to setup and maintain proper management of the private companies,
Yeah, but...
Successive governments promised us that it would be a land of milk and honey, travelling around in beautiful, un-crowded trains as competition, share prices and free markets drove the service to improve beyond the wildest of expectations. And here we are...what was it Branson said?
Well, before I buy my ticket to Edinburgh this weekend, I'll try seven different ticketing sites just in case the ones that promise me they'll find the cheapest one isn't really telling the truth.
Better check that any of the companies I need to use aren't having a strike again this weekend.
Capitalism would work a lot better if big business/media attempting to influence/and allowing the influence of political decisions carried a custodial sentence and that sentence was enforced.
So lets assume that 20% of the population just really can't be arsed with working, but thats all good, bacause its societies job to provide for us because they all REALLY like working. How long do you suppose before the other 80% get bitter about the 20% of folks watching netflix all day in their underwear? And when the injustice really settles in and more people decide they'll not bother working? What percentage of slackers before the whole thing falls on its head?
And then what? Use the military to compel us to work? At that point the idea has pretty much failed already.
I'm already bitter about people watching Netflix in their pants all day. Lucky barstads. There's no way I'd work for a living if I could get away with it, **** that!
gofasterstripes - Member
Where I live near the German/Dutch border, we're absolutely flooded with brand new trains, new track, new stations and even new pedestrian bridges over the tracks. Where's this money all coming from?
From the profits arriva makes?
We already have nationalised rail and energy providers,
it's just that they are owned by the German, French, Chinese, Dutch people etc etc, their part nationalised companies love our train and utility franchises thanks to the taxpayer subsidies and easy profits (what % of people are on the a lowest energy tarrifs?) back into in their own countries coffers