Jeremy Corbyn

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The running-dog, so-called-Blairite, crypto-facist running-dog scum of so-called New Labour gained 58% of the vote in Copeland in 1997.

Does anyone need any more convincing of just how devious these Red Tories are ?

Praise be that we have a man of conviction like Jeremy to bring a new type of politics to the constituency!

you are @corbynsuperfan and I claim my five pounds.

Wow Molgrims angry man, you taking lessons from [s]Messiah[/s] Corbyn?

Interesting that McDonnell today has gone full bunker mentality. The way things are going they'll only go, if the party goes down with them. Amazing stuff. They are either extraordinarily stupid and belligerent, or being paid off by the Tories!

Full-on tinfoil helmet bonkersness from within the bunker

Honestly this is getting silly now. Yes the way it's written suggest a slightly paranoid bunker mentality, but the actual points it raises are pretty much established fact.

Are there people in the labour party actively pursuing an agenda to unseat Corbyn? Yes, of course they are. Peter Mandelson is on record saying he does something every day to bring it about.

Do they have friends in the media who can publish material to support their goals? Does this question really need answering?

Would they rather the labour party lose than continue with Corbyn at the helm? Tony Blair said so himself so why disbelieve him?

You can't really deny this is all happening when it's pretty much on record. But you can question the response to it. Talk of plotters and suchlike isn't helpful. They should be aiming to take the higher ground and resist using the activity of their opponents as excuses for their failings, which I think they are guilty of.

@dazh you clearly haven't been reading my rationale. You can critise the Isaeli government without being anti-Semitic. Many Jews including Kaufman do exactly that. The footage of the soldier shooting the Palestinian knife attacker was firmed and released by Jews, their actions are not anti-Semtitc. I have explained many times how and where such critism / actions / inactions crosses the line into racism. One example is harrasing Jewish students at University as a proxy for Israel government policy, such behaviour is now commonplace and especially during Israel Apatheid Week which is running now. I have heard first hand from students affected. Kurds in London protesting Turkey stand outside the embassy with flags and chant slogans, they don't find Turkish students and hurl abuse or find restaurants and try and force them out of business

@binners yup that's the full monty. Absolutely bonkers.

Zionism is the nationalist belief that the Jews should have a homeland

That's a nice way of putting it. Though doesn't really say much about the theft of another peoples land and forced removal, nor that the borders of that stolen land are not defined, hence expansionist in its essense. (See continual settlement expansion for evidence.)

But aye lets stick with the nice fluffy definition.

In that context it's perfectly reasonable to be anti-zionist. I am.

@dazh you clearly haven't been reading my rationale

Since when did you have a rationale? Surely that's a very grand way to describe making stuff up about Corbyn and the Labour party and posting it on an endless loop?

^^ Seaso the point of anti-Zionists is that they seek to destroy the world's only Jewish state which was created by the foreunner of the UN. Israel is surrounded by Arab states which from1948 to this day have tried to wipe it off the face of the earth. The Arabs attacking Israel have constantly failed in this military action and in general the Palestinians have been caught in the middle and have seen the land they would like as a state shrink as a result. Israel returned to Egypt more land (ie the Sinai) than it has ever "taken" from the Palestinians. Israel did this after Egypt signed a peace agreement. The precedent is quite clear.

The Palestinians want a single state solution, the eradication of Israel. Hama is quite ooen and says this should be achieved via Jihad, Fatah thinks it will achieve it via negotiation eg right of return. Until they change their stance the situation is going to continue to be dire.

Do you actually believe that shit?

Let me ask a question, as I'm fairly certain a one state solution is the only answer, as israel won't allow a 2 state solution, that much is clear.

In Israels one state solution (which is the only one worth talking about, rather that the utter fantasy of a palestinian 1 state solution,) would you give the palestinians equal voting rights?

Daz... that statement from the bunker isn't 'slightly paranoid', it's the ramblings of a madman.

Apparently he's now 'trying to distance himself from the statement'

Though I don't know how exactly you set about 'distancing yourself' from a statement you wrote yourself then posted online 😆

Israel returned to Egypt more land (ie the Sinai) than it has ever "taken" from the Palestinians

How the **** does Israel giving land to Egypt help the Palestinians?

http://labourbriefing.squarespace.com/home/2017/2/26/the-soft-coup-is-under-way

"The plotters are effective in distorting the media coverage because they have extensive contacts and allies in the media"

Isn't the current Labour leadership supposed to have their own extensive media allies and contacts since getting their message out is their job.

Agree re media distortion, but everyone suffers from that, not just Labour.

molgrips - Member
Israel returned to Egypt more land (ie the Sinai) than it has ever "taken" from the Palestinians
How the **** does Israel giving land to Egypt help the Palestinians?

I also wonder how giving examples of Israels utter military superiority, supports the case that nasty Palestinians are even capable of "wiping Israel off the map".

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I agree with Jamba (never thought that would happen) the hard left hat dominates the Labour Party membership are not interested in winning an election, however if they can retain 150 seats and utilise deselection they have a very strong left wing political presence. Disruptive politics is what they are interested in not governing. Corbyn has never hidden this, the PLP can not fix this they need to resign.

jambalaya - Member
@dazh you clearly haven't been reading my rationale. You can critise the Isaeli government without being anti-Semitic.

Yet on page 321 you posted the Lair Yapid Newsnight interview where he equates criticism of Israeli policy with anti Semitism.

Which is it?

It's been three months, any chance of an answer?

it's the ramblings of a madman.

Hardly. Do you deny that the substance of what he's talking about is true? What's up for debate is not whether there are people high up in the labour party and the media who are actively seeking to undermine and unseat Corbyn, but how to respond to them. What should they do? What would you do in their position?

Rusty, blimey 3 months ago ... back I go to check and will reply.

EDiT: yes I do see anti-Zionist and anti-Semite as one and the same. Isreal is the world's only Jewish State. There are many Christian States. Thee are many Islamic States. Anti-Zionist means you do not believe the Jews have a right to their own state. I have yet to meet an anti-Zionist who believes all the Arab/Islamic states should become Secular, are those same people campaigning to ensure Ireland, Italy and Spain (Poland too) seek to become Secular shen they are so clearly Catholic states ? No they are not they are only targetting Jews.

I don't want to derail the thread with an argument about Israel so we best move on. Suffice to say if Corbyn is leader come 2020 terrorism/IRA/Hezbollah and Hamas his words and actions will be front and centre

I would suggest that the very last thing anyone on the right (outside of the labour party) would want to do is unseat corbyn. He's far too valuable in post. That does not mean the Murdoch media won't have some sport at his expense but they will pull their punches before a 10 count.

jambalaya - Member
Rusty, blimey 3 months ago ... back

I'm very patient.
🙂

I don't want to derail the thread with an argument about Israel so we best move on.

I'm not asking about Israel.
I'm asking whether you believe what Yair Lapid said in that interview, specifically his answer to KW's question approx 2 minutes in.

What's newswprthy in the JMcD briefing. Did he believe that this want happening? Politics is a nasty business - ask the cuckoos too.....

jambalaya - Member
I have yet to meet an anti-Zionist who believes all the Arab/Islamic states should become Secular.

Show me a muslim or a christian country doing the same and I'll be equally against it. (fire away with examples if you like.)

Anti-Zionist means you do not believe the Jews have a right to their own state.

It does not anymore than anti-semite means you hate all semites [ who include the palestinians]. Words meanings change

I have yet to meet an anti-Zionist who believes all the Arab/Islamic states should become Secular, are those same people campaigning to ensure Ireland, Italy and Spain (Poland too) seek to become Secular shen they are so clearly Catholic states ? No they are not they are only targeting Jews.

well its the only Jewish state so the "logic" is tautologous and you have completely missed the point
Many people complain about the actions of those states you dont claim racism when folk do it and they object to their actions not their religion.

The reason for the objections are all based on what Israel [ or the other countries] does not its religion. That you do not wish to try to defend its actions, which are in clear violation of international law and decent morality, I can understand . It easier to scream anti semite rather than explain how "putting people on a diet", collective punishments, lands grabs and illegal settlements, assassinations abroad etc are ok. Objecting to these actions is neither objecting to Jews or to a Jewish state its objecting to what the state is doing.
I find it somewhat unlikely you would let or defend an Arab state were it to do 5% of Israel. I can only imagine you reaction were it doing it to the Jewish folk it was depriving of land. If you need to find arguments that lack coherence, principle and logic then its much closer than you think.

If i criticise china humanitarian record it is not due to racism or their state religion Same with Saudi or ****stan or wherever.
Its not a hard point to grasp

I also dont want to derail it but that needed a reply.

I will not be debating israel with you

Rusty he also said if a jewish person said it was then it was true so he is still anti scottish as i said so.

Hardly. Do you deny that the substance of what he's talking about is true?

Ahh, but why then is he trying to "distance" himself from the article that he typed out and put onto a website ?

He's now distancing himself from distancing the article.

Very good article in this month's GQ, from Alastair Campbell. Pretty damning on Corbyn and JMcD - in a nutshell they don't have a strategy to win the next election. A good read ...and I'm not a fan of any one political party.

The myth of individual culpability allows them to salvage the underlying dogma and try again under new leadership. Whether Mr Corbyn goes before or after the next general election, scheduled for 2020, his erstwhile supporters will recruit a more persuasive vessel for their socialism and pacifism — as if a country that has not returned a prime minister to the left of Tony Blair since 1974 has any interest in either. This way, Labour can waste another electoral cycle, not just this one and the last one.

Ganesh in FT. Simply put.

Rusty KY Is it possible to be anti-Zionist and not anti-Semitic ? He says anti-Zionism is just "camouflage" for anti-Semitism - this I agree with for the reasons I have given

seasom there is a whole raft of countries for example which are responsible for human rights violations and no one, you included, are campaigning for those countries to cease to exist. Regime change maybe, eg Syria but not for the country to dissapear. It's like campaigning to put the Pope in charge of Mecca because of Saudi Human Rights violations. Thats the point with anti-Zionism, it's goal is to ensure Israel ceases to exist and more than that that Jews have no right to have a country anywhere.

On rights, Isreali Arabs have (imo) the best standard of living in the most liberal democracy anywhere in the Middle East or broader Arab world. Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank are not Israeli citizens, the Gazans chose their government in 2005 when Israel withdrew. I would argue they made a very poor choice which has lead them to the place that they are. Something like 90% of Palestinians live under the rule of the Palestinian Authority.

Anyway back to Corbyn, he has a problem with Jews. He sent Tom Watson to Israel on a visit saying he was "too busy". I am sure Tom Watson is a strong critic of Israeli policies but he went and he sang the Israeli National Anthem.

Rusty KY Is it possible to be anti-Zionist and not anti-Semitic ? He says anti-Zionism is just "camouflage" for anti-Semitism - this I agree with for the reasons I have given

Thanks for the reply but you still have not answered my question.

Yair Lapid, in the interview you posted, and say you agree with, states that he believes criticism of the Israeli government is, in itself, anti Semitic.

Yet a couple of pages ago you say it is not.

You can see why I and possibly others are confused.
🙂

🙄

Why the rolly eyes?

I was reading the [url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/25/observer-view-on-labour-and-jeremy-corbyn ]Observer comment[/url] on Corbyn this morning. There's not much there that I disagree with but a key passage stood out:

Labour’s current problems go far beyond its current leader. Labour’s support among the working classes has been in steady decline since 1997. But under Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership, that trend has accelerated: there was a dramatic fall in working-class support in the first two months of his leadership.

The 'working class' problem is just as much a problem for Corbyn's opponents as it is for him. I doubt a more moderate or competent leader would do much to win back these voters who have come to the conclusion that the labour party only represents minorities and are too politically correct. Ultimately the growing intolerance of minorities among the white working class is incompatible with the principles of all sides of the labour party. Corbyn obviously isn't the solution to it, but I don't know who else is.

Is it possible to be anti-Zionist and not anti-Semitic ? He says anti-Zionism is just "camouflage" for anti-Semitism - this I agree with for the reasons I have given

seasom there is a whole raft of countries for example which are responsible for human rights violations and no one, you included, are campaigning for those countries to cease to exist.

Thats the point with anti-Zionism, it's goal is to ensure Israel ceases to exist and more than that that Jews have no right to have a country anywhere.

Would you let Iran treat the state of Israel the way they treat the Palestinians? Would you? Go on answer the question - would you be defending their right to do this - we all know the answer so you cry racist because you are a hypocrite who applies different standards to different nations based on their race...you then have the never to call us the racists. Heal thyself.

On rights, Isreali Arabs have (imo) the best standard of living in the most liberal democracy anywhere in the Middle East or broader Arab world

Corbyn does not have an issue with Jewish people but the rise of anti semitic attacks is on the rise under trump.....i am sure you are giving him both barels for enabling racists and giving them a safe place ....you are aren't you you great big ball of principles you.

Its interesting to see a person have no insight and just apply his opinion to the facts with all the lack of principle and contradiction that must entail rather than allow the facts to influence their view and apply principles universally

Rusty Spanner - Member
Why the rolly eyes?

The 'working class' problem is just as much a problem for Corbyn's opponents as it is for him. I doubt a more moderate or competent leader would do much to win back these voters who have come to the conclusion that the labour party only represents minorities and are too politically correct. Ultimately the growing intolerance of minorities among the white working class is incompatible with the principles of all sides of the labour party. Corbyn obviously isn't the solution to it, but I don't know who else is.

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Rusty. No I don't agree that critism of the Isreali Government is anti-Semitic. I have said that many times so obviously I wasn't clear with the anti-Zionst remark. Hopefully I have now answered the right question !

EDIT: what I think he is referring to is widespread critism of Israel holding it to a standard far higher than any other Middle East or North Aftican country. When you hokd the world's only Jewish state to a higher standard than pretty much any other Muslim state for example that's grounds for being called anti-Semtic

Just to be clear to other STWers I haven't read anything Junkyard has posted on this topic here due to constant historial abuse and trolling from him.

In other news Shabrabati, Corbyn amd Abbott have drawn the ire of the PLP. A lot of no shows at the weekly meeting and de-brief into Copeland and Stoke

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_58b48011e4b060480e0ad5f8

EDIT: that quote from binners sums up my view. Corbyn under Labour has become a party of politcial correctness and protest issues (inc Israel, stop the war, complaining about Blair/Iraq, nuclear etc). Whatever Corbyn (and some STWers) think that list does not contain priority issues.

jambalaya - Member
Just to be clear to other STWers I haven't read anything Junkyard has posted on this topic here due to constant historial abuse and trolling from him.

😆 you're kidding no-one.

Just to be clear to other STWers I haven't read anything Junkyard has posted on this topic here due to constant historial abuse and trolling from him.

Of course you have read it. Why else would you be making excuses for not answering him?

Not all all chest, just scroll straight past. Threads run more smoothly that way. Better for Mods and STW in general

that quote from binners sums up my view. Corbyn under Labour has become a party of politcial correctness and protest issues

What quote? Yout think people didn't see the labour party as a party of political correctness under Miliband, Brown and Blair? Do you really think they'd be seen as less politically correct under Umunna, Starmer, Cooper, Burnham et al? This problem wasn't created by Corbyn, and it's not going to be solved by him.

Ta for the response Jambers.
🙂

[quote=jambalaya ]Not all all chest, just scroll straight past. Threads run more smoothly that way. Better for Mods and STW in general

I know the amount of posters who target me and tag threads accusing me of lying and being a serial BS its getting ridiculous isnt it I am sure the mods and STW thank you for your sacrifice on their/our behalf.

Just to be clear to other STWers I haven't read anything Junkyard has posted on this topic here due to constant historical abuse and trolling from him.

Can I just say for the record being able to reply to your nonsense without any counter is hardly a punishment so from the bottom of my heart thank you for your kind actions which is as believable as anything else you say on here

This ****ing priceless, hat tip to Huffingtonpost

https://mobile.twitter.com/Rachael_Swindon/status/836327062327656448/video/1

Wonder if Rachael is the same person as another erstwhile LabourTwit, namely @jon_swindon

Trollbot.

Newsthump doesn't always hit the spot, but this is inspired:

[url= http://newsthump.com/2017/03/01/labour-accuses-pigeons-of-attempting-a-soft-coo/ ]http://newsthump.com/2017/03/01/labour-accuses-pigeons-of-attempting-a-soft-coo/[/url]