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Dazh how can saying I have a "gut feel" be presenting something as "cast iron fact"
A few thoughts
1) Raising Corporation Tax to pay for free higher education
2) Re-nationalising the Railways
3) Taking over failing social care homes.
4) Setting up of national and regional investment banks
5) Tariff free access to the single market.
6) Proper funding of local authorities
1) numbers won't add up - see 6)
2) massive increase in govenrment spending, more strikes, higher fares (how else will investment be paid for unless its even more borrowing). Notion that "profits" will pay is ridiculous, look at numbers
3) another massive increase in costs and borrowing
4) German state owned investment banks where the worst European offenders in US subprime crises. A combination of state and bank is about the worst possible
5) not possible without freedom of movement (allegdly). See 1) if in the single market Corporations will move to Ireland to avoid higher taxes. In any case Corbyn can't do anything about that as it's the current Government who will decide. They may even deliver substantially tariff free access without the other freedoms which will help with tax avoidance issues.
6) Even more borrowing
All of this is classic Corbyn, the Government can pay for everything. Borrowing through the roof and the UK bust just like the Southern Europeans
.. and sooner or later you run out of other people's money.
... and you end up with people queuing because there is a rumour that the shop might have toilet paper this week:
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Based on what I have seen and a gut feel Baroness Shakrabati is setting herself up to be the next leader.
WTFare you talking about? It's pretty hilarious that you speak with such certainty as if everything you say was a cast-iron fact and then come out with rubbish like this.
I agree everyone knows it's going to be Lady Nugee
Raising Corporation Tax to pay for free higher education
Re-nationalising the Railways
Taking over failing social care homes.
Setting up of national and regional investment banks
Tariff free access to the single market.
Proper funding of local authorities
You missed out nationalising GPs and dentists, got to get the private sector out of the NHS
[I]Now of course it could be totally partisan but Telegragph is reporting that a number of Labour MPs are planning to resign this year and are deliberately timing their resignations so there is a steady stream. By-election after by-election. [/I]
Got to say that my first thought when I say the recent chap going to the V&A (after the Sellafield one)) is that a lot of them don't see a future as an MP at the next GE (whether its' due to lack of votes or boundary changes I've no idea) so are getting out early - I don't believe it's to directly embarrass Corbin though.
they all came after i posted. He just took a very long time telling us all how unfair the world is before finally getting to some content.
So first you criticise for lack of policy detail, then when he provides some you criticise him for not delivering it fast enough? Also he's the leader of a party which was founded to make the UK a fairer place, so it's reasonable to expect he might talk about that at some point.
We have heard him say that a million times before (inequality ratioanle etc). He could cover what he needs too in 2 or 3 sentences. IMO he is used to preaching to the converted who turn up at rallies to have someone tell them what they already believe to be true. That way they feel good about themselves.
The Investment bank is £250bn of borrowing alone plus another £250bn in guarantees for the matching private loans. Isn't it funny that PFI is derided but Corbyn and McDonnell expect half the money for their Investment Bank to come from the private sector. Oopps.
Form a response on Jezza's ****ter
Stella Creasy to Paul Mason: "It's nice to come to a Labour conference and hear a Marxist approach. And by that I mean Groucho." #Fab17
Mason has lost the lot post Newsnight
🙂
Mason has lost the lot post Newsnight
When was he on, did watch last week ? Clips I saw of QT he was his usual self.
QT this week - he was crap. I "understand" that he was a stand-in for Owen Jones today at Jezza's conference.
I can't see that. After initially being a supporter, Owen Jones has had nothing to do with 'the revolution' for quite some time.
He's been the subject of prolific and vitriolic abuse from the Momentum mob for having the affrontery to point out that the emperor's not actually wearing any clothes
I read it this morning binners, can't recall where and watching rugby now. Will try and find link later.
I am sure it's a small thing now despite being a big thing crowed over and lambasted a few days ago in this thread, but somewhat awkwardly according to the Indy, even 47% of [i]tories [/i]are supporting the ludicrous idea of capping maximum wages at 20x the least paid person in large companies with government contracts.
[url= http://http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/majority-of-public-support-jeremy-corbyn-s-plans-to-cap-bosses-salaries-poll-finds-a7527381.html ]When will this madman come up with an idea that is popular with voters, eh? [/url]
As for strengthening the social/residential/nursing care sector instead of denying the crisis and then blaming GP's, that sort of policy idea will never take off with doctors who have nothing to gain from it. Oh, except it is just what they are asking for too. Honestly, you couldn't make it up...
Capping wages? Nice idea.
Now, about your curtain allowance. Oh, and your monthly shirt allowance. Etc.
Unworkable.
And yet however unworkable this insane idea is strangely popular. Even with conservative voters.
This wouldn't be the first unworkable idea on either team to gain traction. We are reminded that we need policies and these policies need to be vote winners first and foremost. We know from many elections experience, and increasingly these days that workable policies don't win elections on their own. Popular ones do though.
Now, about your curtain allowance. Oh, and your monthly shirt allowance. Etc.
So the response to an idea that has massive support is that the rich are so good at working their way around the system that there's no point in trying? Obviously the proles should just bloody know their place. It's such a ridiculous justification that it beggars belief.
QT this week - he was crap.
And yet judging from the applause he received from the audience his views seemed to be the most popular of anyone on the panel. I often despair at QT audiences, but whether you like them or not they're a bloody good barometer of public opinion, and one thing that's clear is that populists/radicals on both sides of the spectrum are far more popular than those of the usual party drones.
@julian - capping wages to a multiple will lead to less tax revenue or more likely all the lower paid jobs being outsourced so they don't count in the calculation.
Thought provoking blog/speech from Stella Casey at today's Fabian Society Conference
It's such a ridiculous justification
Wasn't a justification, ridiculous or otherwise. Just an illustration of what would probably happen.
He's just not a leader of a country. End of story.
Jamba, that's not my point. In a sense I agree with you and cfh, humans are far too self interested to let a rule like this get in the way.
Like you my first idea for circumventing this was to subcontract out the lower paid jobs rather than bumping up salaries with 'allowances' (sorry Flashy!).
The point you are both missing or perhaps avoiding is that there are arguments about workability and arguments about electability or popularity. Here is yet another example of an idea that chimes with public opinion (even conservative voters who are 47% in favour, 13% undecided and 40% against) and yet the echo chamber of this thread insists the Labour Party led by JC has no ideas and no policy.
What a sad bunch you lot are!
Still arguing over somebody that will never/will ever lead the UK.
Move on! Show some progress! Be pro-active!
Damn straight, brother Todd!
What we need is someone popular with teh yoof and gets them to vote anything at all, with morals, ideas and dare I say it 'policies' supported by not just the traditional left, but also swing and even right wing voters and who can get over 50% when we gerrymander the bejeesus out of the next leadership coup.
IGMC
Just an illustration of what would probably happen.
Of course, but it's not something that's impossible to do something about, which is what the likes of Jamba would have everyone believe.
He's just not a leader of a country. End of story.
Don't disagree. Unlike many on this thread though I'm not particularly interested in the whole Jeremy Corbyn personality cult, and more interested in the ideas he represents. It's quite tragic that it's all become about him. The problem with Corbyn is his image, personality and his history, but not his policies which IMO have broad support. If the labour party can find a more competent and charismatic leader then these policies might have a chance of being implemented. It's a big if though, as currently the labour party is bereft of anyone who could win an election. They can't even find anyone to beat Corbyn, which says an awful lot about those who claim to be better than him.
Julian - that's not fair. He has loads of policies, he even makes them up intra day - so much so that he contradicts himself. That is why he is such good value and worth 346 pages of comment. He has 37 policies on FoM alone. Ok, I exaggerate, 30....
He's a genius. Most politicians have to go to focus groups or advisors. Not ond Jezza. Just make it up and mix it with his old bird Di De and you're off.
Is he in Marr tomorrow, that could be another handful of policies.
As an aside, WTF have politicians got to do with an exchange between the suppliers and providers of labour?
Thm, it's a novel way of generating ideas I'll grant you, like a sort of comedy scattergun approach.
Only somehow some of these crazy ideas keep being popular with unexpectedly large numbers of not always very left wing people. What if that crazy "chuck an idea out there and see what the surveys of actual voters say" became the new focus group? Seems to have worked for brexit and the comedic and unelectable trump and yet JC is far less heavy on the "Mis-speaks".
Thm you are excellent at arguing the policy not the man but the other thrust of this thread is "no policies and out of touch". His responses to NHS crisis and this crazy salary cap idea seem to challenge this, twice in a week, who knew?!
And amazingly, despite the chaos that is brexit and the Conservative party at the moment, Labour seems to have the relative luxury (who would want to lead the U.K. right now?!) of an opposition PM who is not going anywhere so a couple of years left to turn them into a costed manifesto.
Remember when the opposition didn't have to firm much quite so much of this up less than 2 years after losing a GE? Feels like those days were only 5 or 10 years ago... 😉
This all must be terribly perturbing.
I think I missed his substantive NHS policies other than get rid of the Tories. That's doesn't seem to be going down to well at the moment. very odd...
But you are correct, saying silly things has worked wonders for the Brexshiteers, for Trump, the SNP, so the perplexing thing - given that trend - why not for our old mate Jezza? Very odd.....very odd indeed.
What a sad bunch you lot are!
Still arguing over somebody that will never/will ever lead the UK.
Guilty as charged, arguing about JC on the internet on a Saturday night. Many who voted for him as leader though believed he could win. Still do.
The problem with Corbyn is his image, personality, [s]and[/s] his history and [s]but not[/s] his policies [b]none of[/b] which IMO have broad support
@dazh I think you'll find his policies have very little support. We all appreciate the sentiments it's his reaction to them, ie his policies we don't agree with.
I think you'll find his policies have very little support.
Remember what I was saying earlier about your tendency to present your opinion as fact? Up here in the grim north I can guarantee you that stuff like renationalising the railways, getting the rich to pay their tax, not privatising the NHS, funding schools etc are very popular. Politicians who ignore them do so at their peril.
"Substantive policies.... , again, remember the days when this stuff didn't matter so much 19 months into a 60 month term of opposition?
But yes there is plenty more on record and with public and professional support from Jc about health besides 'win the election'. Actually is that what you meant by "getting rid of the tories" or are you perhaps implying that the owners of failing residential and nursing homes and the staff of profit-making healthcare providers with contracts >250k and offshore tax arrangements are indeed 'the tories'?)
You're correct Julan I DID overlook nationalising care holmes -,sorry I assumed that no one took that seriously.
But I am biased, after three days of NHS care at home I'm afraid I had to bite the bullet and pay for it this week so I am thankfull for the choice. So my view is tainted by current experience.
FFS just get a life you sad pricks! JC is not the answer or the problem, you lot, arguing over him ARE the problem!
As flippant as this comment was probably intended, it actually raises an interesting and very serious point about how the lack of engagement in politics is a major problem 😉
'Nationalise' is a bit sensationalist, non? And not really what he said at all. But don't let that get on the way of a good headline, eh?
Curious about your thoughts on the other bit I mentioned. Again, putting aside hw you administer it, it's such an obvious one in terms of warming the cockles of the average tabloid reader that I am surprised the conservatives haven't beaten him to it and suggested it already.
But I am biased, after three days of NHS care at home I'm afraid I had to bite the bullet and pay for it this week so I am thankfull for the choice. So my view is tainted by current experience.
Indeed. Under-resource, claim it's broken and then offer choice of contracted out profit-making service (I know how much you hate the 'p' word) is the oldest trick in the book. Glad you're staying objective about it.
Crap trick actually, Having been involved in privatisations in the past, I know the real trick is normally to make it look good not awful. Are yo sure that you don't mean asset stripping?
I got the term nationalise from a labour website, forgive me if that was wrong, working out what Jezza is saying is a bit hard these days isn't it.
As flippant as this comment was probably intended, it actually raises an interesting and very serious point about how the lack of engagement in politics is a major problem
Very true, also JC is also not the solution (just a very naughty boy) but he is part of the problem he just doesn't know it. He is the most popular guy in a room full of his supporters, he is somebody who really needs his own party
..............and this is why the Labour Party will LOSE the next general election. And, these argumentative socialists just cannot see it!
Laughable.
Having been involved in privatisations in the past, I know the real trick is normally to make it look good not awful. Are yo sure that you don't mean asset stripping?
So we [i]are[/i] privatising the NHS? I thought you said we weren't?
I think the trick here is winning over the owners and recipients of the service, and then the voters. Chomsky put it the best, but of course you know that.
Actually its a brilliant 'therapeutic bind.' (google that, and look for the parallels to recruiting people to cults for that matter 😯 )
"Your health service is doomed -a combination of bad fortune and reckless overuse by you and your fellow countrymen are responsible for it, sinner. Oh, and those nasty greedy GP's with their 60 hour weeks. Slackers. But we are the ones that can save you, it will be hard but you just need to trust us."
I'm not sure THM, Jamba, ninfan and cranberry will appreciate being described as argumentative socialists 🙂
They are argumentative though.
Chomsky put it the best
Bravo. 346 pages and that's the first mention (I think) of Chomsky. I sometimes think there should be a Chomsky's law as an opposite to Godwin's. 🙂
Daz my thoughts (btw I said "I think")
Up here in the grim north I can guarantee you that stuff like
1) renationalising the railways
2) getting the rich to pay their tax
3) not privatising the NHS
4) funding schools etc are very popular.
1) Maybe but as someone who has commuted by train for nearly 30 years I'm against and I would say that's the general view down here - strikes, big increases in fares and government debt to pay for all the upgrades, pay rises, extra staff
2) Top 1% pay 29%, tackling tax evasion is something all parties agree on. Non Dom numbers rose massively under Blair. Corbyn doesn't mean getting the rich to pay their tax, he means tax someone esle much more heavily. Middle England knows that means them. The real rich are very mobile, certainly their assets are.
3) No one is privatising the NHS, plus see the other thread
4) Tories ring fenced education against necessary budget cuts overall. There simply isn't the money to do more at the moment
Boring!
Can you not take this argument to somewhere else? Seriously, the ' I love, I hate' JC discussion is wearing thin with everybody else!
Bravo. 346 pages and that's the first mention (I think) of Chomsky.
8)
My posting history over the last year would suggest I miss a great deal that goes on here these days, but I don't hear Chomsky often if ever mentioned on stw. Funny considering the sorts of posters on here, and how often I hear of him elsewhere in internetland.
But then the reverse is true for red dwarf and Hg2g jokes though.
or comment on them!
Whatever. Just getting bored with you two loving JC all the time.
Maybe but as someone who has commuted by train for nearly 30 years I'm against and I would say that's the general view down here - strikes, big increases in fares and government debt to pay for all the upgrades, pay rises, extra staff
I'm not sure Southern Rail commuters would agree. I have yet to meet a single person in this country who would say 'Yes, I think the railways are really good'. We've had 20 years of rail privatisation. That should have been enough time to fix the problems of British Rail, no?
No one is privatising the NHS
Again, absolutely no one I know would agree with this, and that includes a fair number of GPs, hospital doctors, nurses, social workers, paramedics, ambulance drivers and others who work or used to work in the NHS. In the NHS the privatisation agenda is an accepted fact, and the general pubic are not far behind.
Toddboy - MemberWhatever. Just getting bored with you two loving JC all the time.
It's a 346 page thread and i have posted on it on about three days of the 18 months it has been running. Is that 'all the time?" In fact you have about four fewer posts on this thread than I do. 😛
[edit] dazh, THM insists that whatever it is that is happening, the NHS is not being privatised. Although perhaps he may be warming to his idea in his last post above. In a way i don't disagree with him, its not as straightforward a change as it was when the railways or untilities were privatised, but then neither is the nature of the business. 'Choice' in the health service is still largely an illusion and also not one that currently 'cost to the cosumer' is a factor in, (as it might be for me in terms of which long-distance train service or energy [s]supplier[/s] broker, but also we are not really consumers of healthcare in the way we are of train journeys, bus rides, gas/water/phone/electricity.
However in terms of health and indeed statutory social services, what we do need is a cross-party term for whatever is happening that factors in the profit and commercial interest into 'doing things 'for free' to/for sometimes desperate and vulnerable people that would rather not need to use your service at all'.