Jeremy Corbyn

And those voters are never coming back either.

Not sure. I suspect a clear anti brexit line would see them come flooding back. They've basically become the liberal democrats of old, who can't decide what they stand for so sit on the fence on the big issues whilst flirting with fringe radical stuff that no one cares about. It's highly ironic that Corbyn the supposedly dangerous revolutionary has become just another out of touch representative of the elite. I guess that's what the centrists wanted though wasn't it?

Not sure. I suspect a clear anti brexit line would see them come flooding back.

After coming out on the day of the referendum result demanding Article 50 be triggered immediately?

Yeah.... thats a credible position

He's already painted himself into a corner on that score

Its funny really but Corbyn the so called principled politician has flip flopped so much on Europe that no one on either side of the fence believes a word he says.

However, saying that the one thing the Labour top brass seem to agree on is that Brexit means Brexit, Corbyn, NcDonnell and Watson have all said so, but I'm not sure the message is very clear to those only with a passing interest in politics. If you want an anti-brexit party then your options are limited to Lib Dems, (Greens?) and in Scotland the SNP.

After coming out on the day of the referendum result demanding Article 50 be triggered immediately?

Well maybe if he'd stuck to his guns he'd have headed off the UKIP threat which now confronts him? In the end, like all leaders he sold out his principles to placate his critics. Integrity and honesty were the only things he had in his favour. It's sad that he felt he had to abandon those in order to confront the blairites but there you go. In hindsight it would have been better for labour to have taken a clear pro-brexit stance against the wishes of people like me. They'd have cut off UKIP and re-established the connection with their traditional base. Of course they'd still have lost the next election, but they would at least have had a future.

Labour need to make it clear they are there for lower paid.
Lower paid need to be better off under labour, highly paid need to be worse off - bringing about better equality.

- So higher minimum wage
- Remove VAT on non luxury items
- Lower tax limit of £20K
- Various investments to increase decent jobs

The poorer in society would be happy with that but it would make sod all difference to Labour's chances unless all the Scottish seats went back to Labour. No Labour policies will make enough of the current Tory seats ever swing to Labour, whoever their leader is.

Lower paid need to be better off under labour, highly paid need to be worse off - bringing about better equality.

This is where Blair/Brown where smart. They introduced the minimum wage and kept the top rate of tax at 40%. That saw them enjoy 13 years in Government

The whole "tax the rich" agenda has backfired on Labour so many times. People aren't daft and the Middle / Upper-Middle class earners understand "rich" means them.

BTW removing VAT on anything is impossible whilst in the EU, you can onky add it to things.

- So higher minimum wage
- Remove VAT on non luxury items
- Lower tax limit of £20K
- Various investments to increase decent jobs

Lower paid need to be better off under labour, highly paid need to be worse off - bringing about better equality.

Odd how all this has happened under a coalition and then a Tory government!!

Another nail in the Labour coffin then?

The whole "tax the rich" agenda has backfired on Labour so many times. People aren't daft and the Middle / Upper-Middle class earners understand "rich" means them.

Of course they know it means them but they will always vote Tory anyway so nothing to lose.
The better off people who would never vote Tory (i.e. me) will be happier to vote for a party that taxes me more as long as the lower paid have a better standard of living.

Of course they know it means them but they will always vote Tory anyway so nothing to lose.
The better off people who would never vote Tory (i.e. me) will be happier to vote for a party that taxes me more as long as the lower paid have a better standard of living.

^^ what 5th says give the extra via Charitable giving.

@kerley I voted Labour or LibDem as a higher rate taxpayer. It's far too simplistic to say middle/upper-middle just vote Tory and always will. Blair recognised that and won.

^^ what 5th says give the extra via Charitable giving.

Charity is not a solution to poverty any more than driving your car less is a solution to climate change. Big issues such as these need to be confronted at a systemic macro level. The state can much better coordinate and organise the redistribution of wealth than random acts of kindness, and provides a level playing field. It also can set policy to gain extra indirect benefits which charity couldn't provide. We should be trying to eliminate the need for charity, not encouraging it.

No they both play a role, the state can under pin a minimum standard but it will never be able to effectively target specific areas in the way a charity can.

It's far too simplistic to say middle/upper-middle just vote Tory and always will. Blair recognised that and won.

Indeed. Politics is much more fluid than that. The old tribal loyalties just don't apply any more. The Labour party is presently reaping the electoral 'rewards' of their decades-long, complacent assumption that everyone working class will just automatically vote labour.

They didn't in Scotland, once presented with a non-Tory alternative. And UKIP are clearly aiming to do the same thing as the SNP did in Scotland, in what were formally nailed-on Labour seats. They very nearly managed it at the last election. You'd be a brave man to bet against them doing it next time, now that Corbyn has entrenched the politics of a metropolitan 6th form common room as labour policy, which is of little or no interest, or relevence, to what has always been their core vote

The old tribal loyalties just don't apply any more. The Labour party is presently reaping the electoral 'rewards' of their decades-long, complacent assumption that everyone working class will just automatically vote labour.

I agree, but I'm a little confused. The people who spent the last 20 years saying labour needed to target middle class swing voters, and who stupidly turned it's own traditional supporters against them, are now saying that the current leadership is too left wing and they should be following a more centrist platform. Is this not just the same as before?

You'd be a brave man to bet against them doing it next time, now that Corbyn has entrenched the politics of a metropolitan 6th form common room as labour policy, which is of little or no interest, or relevence, to what has always been their core vote

i though marxist trade unionists were the historical labour vote?

what corbyn is not doing is spitting enough fire and brimstone at the tories whos austerity and relentless neglect of the working classes has been channeled into scapegoating immigrants and the EU for what is essentially a neglected post industrialisation.

Presenting a coherent message to address that is needed

what corbyn is not doing is spitting enough fire and brimstone

But then he'd just be called a raving, ranting loony lefty a la Derek Hatton. He can't win TBH. Too shouty and he's a communist trot, to quiet and intellectual he's an out of touch elitist intellectual. Somewhere in between he's both. The answer is someone like Sanders. The labour party doesn't have anyone like that though, and even if they did, he'd probably be called a trot by the blairites.

I'd settle for anything even slightly more engaging than the bored bystander he always seems to come across as.

He's the leader of the opposition (apparently) at one of the most critical points in British post war history. And yet he always looks like he's barely stifling a yawn, like its all a bit too much like hard work, and that he'd rather be anywhere else instead. Like Fidel Castro's funeral, for example

The answer is someone like Sanders. The labour party doesn't have anyone like that though, and even if they did, he'd probably be called a trot by the blairites

if sanders had gone against trump, hed have been destroyed as an evil commie!

Latest ICM opinion poll, 16% lead for Tories, lead every social group including DEs. Corbyn is achieving cut through (unfortunately it is his party's throat)

@kerley I voted Labour or LibDem as a higher rate taxpayer. It's far too simplistic to say middle/upper-middle just vote Tory and always will. Blair recognised that and won.

When the New Forest votes anything but Tory I will give you £10,000.

When Blair won he also had Scotland. Without Scotland they haven't got a chance as there are a lot of New Forests out there and the gap caused by SNP takeover is not possible to fill, especially not with honest Labour policies.

[b]Conservatives on brink of record polling lead as Theresa May trounces Labour on almost every measure[/b]

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/29/conservatives-riding-high-polls-theresa-may-leads-labour-almost/ ]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/29/conservatives-riding-high-polls-theresa-may-leads-labour-almost/[/url]

Not a surprise about Labour but the Lib Dem vote is still going down as well!! Turns out Brexit has been blooming amazing for the Tories.

Lib Dems very pro-Remain stance post the Referendum is a vote loser imho. A recent PMQ's the Speaker didn't even call Farron even though he kept standing every time. I think the SNP had 2 or even 3 questions.

Ruth Davidson raising something which imo will be a major factor is any GE featuring Corbyn and McDonnell, their support for the IRA

Phew ! Labour aren't so daft to allow Jeremy Corbyn to attend Castro's funeral.

They are sending Emily Thornbery though 😯

BTW removing VAT on anything is impossible whilst in the EU, you can onky add it to things

That's not true, we make zero rated supplies quite often based on the clients circumstances.

Vat is a complex area in or out of EU. And given various governments have adjusted the rate several times what does that tell you?

Phew ! Labour aren't so daft to allow Jeremy Corbyn to attend Castro's funeral.

Posted at 02.30? Did you really get up in the middle of the night to post that nugget of wisdom? Or do you have some sort of 'bot that posts nonsense automatically, without human intervention?

Getting angry but whipped by [s]Teresa[/s], sorry Theresa at PMQ

Rarely watch it, but is it usual to start questions with the real leader of the Oppo (Caroline Lucas) rather than the pretend one?

Odd that we have labour shouting now for less borrowing, quicker. Odd priorities for them.

PMQ. Thanks for heads up TMH forgot to tune in.

DrJ no I did not wake up to post that. What's yourctake then on Labour sending the Shadow Foreign Secretary to join Jerry Adams at the funeral of a dictator who persecuted homosexuals and Christians and tortured many Cubans given there will be no representationform the UK Government and it's an invitation even the Russians/Putin turned down.

That's not true, we make zero rated supplies quite often based on the clients circumstances.

Interesting, but you are not changing the rules you are applying the existing ones based upon client classification (genuine question) ? No doubt in my mind the Toies will announce an end to VAT on gas/electric and water post Brexit in 2019 and before the 2020 GE.

You posted it whilst sleeping?

You posted it whilst sleeping?

🙂 a man of many talents eh ?

It's like that email trick where you draft the weekly work roundup and then select "send at 6pm on Sunday" or draft the daily update in the evening and send it at 6.30 am

PMQs Corbyn mixes up the IMF and IFS allowing May to simply mock him. He really doesn't get it and he would have practiced the question too.

****ing clueless!!

I had it on the radio, but I imagine the assembled benches behind him were united in a collective facepalm as he misquoted the figures? Once again spooning it into Row Z when faced with an open goal?

Mind you... at least he remembered to actually mention them, instead of his usual "this week I met a builder called Bob, who asked about..... " routine. So I suppose thats progress of sorts

The SNP motion for a committee to investigate Blair was crushed as 158 Labour MPs turned up to vote against, Corbyn couldn't even be bothered to attend the debate and this on one of his hot "Stop the War" issues. Last night the PLP voted unanamously for a 3 line whip (and to vote against) and Corbyn refused. Well they turned up in large numbers anyway. Corbyn is very isolated at Westminster, as he has always been.

At least the PLP understands that continued self flagilation over Iraq is counterprodictive in the same way the SNP is aware that's it's a prodictive furrow for them to plough slapping Labour at every opportunity.

Ben Bradshaw, the former culture secretary, told the Telegraph: "I am celebrating the fact that more Labour MPs turned up to vote even though it wasn't a three line whip.

"It seems his absence inflated the Labour turnout, that's one of the best turnouts I can remember from the PLP. They voted overwhelmingly and I'm delighted at the result."

Another former frontbencher added: "Jeremy commands loyalty and unity but its only ever on his terms. The PLP voted almost unanimously for a three line whip.

"Nobody at the PLP on Monday night thought we should support the SNP's motion- it was pretty much unanimous. Once again Jeremy Corbyn treats his colleges with contempt."

No doubt in my mind the Toies will announce an end to VAT on gas/electric and water post Brexit in 2019 and before the 2020 GE.

It would be a great initiative to do so, fuel poverty is a big issue. not sure what will make up the gap though

Labour could and should announce that type of policy now, just state other taxes will go up to make up any spending gap but be focused on the better off. Any delay gives the Conservatives a massive chance to gain another part of the middle ground improving disproportionately the wallets of the lowest incomes

Labour could and should announce that type of policy now

What's the point? It's just frilling round the edges. The only thing that will save labour is big game-changing stuff now. If they want to reverse the slide they'd probably have to do the following:

1. Get rid of Corbyn and replace him with ?????
2. Embrace brexit. Stop sitting on the fence and start exposing the tories on their incompetent dithering.
3. Come up with an immigration policy which protects british jobs whilst allowing immigration as and when it's needed. (that means actually saying so, with none of this 'protecting communities from pirate bosses' rubbish)
4. Declare themselves opponents of international free trade.
5. Launch a committed and zero-tolerance assault on the rich and corporates for not paying their taxes.
6. Promote the regions, allow Scotland independence-light. Call out the Northen Powerhouse for what it is.
7. Bring in some truly populist policies like legalising drugs (debatable but we're ready for it.

Not saying I agree with some of the above but it's the only way they're not going to disappear up their own backsides. The world is sliding into populism, better a labour govt do it than rightwing nutters like the tories and UKIP.

The irony is that its become increasingly obvious that Corbyn is easily as vain, self-absorbed and egotistical as Trump or Farage.

Populism without being popular?

Ingenious.

DrJ no I did not wake up to post that.

You can post shyte in yiour sleep ?

What's yourctake then on Labour sending the Shadow Foreign Secretary to join Jerry Adams at the funeral of a dictator who persecuted homosexuals and Christians and tortured many Cubans given there will be no representationform the UK Government

I don't see why he doesn't go himself - Cuba is a fascinating place. People who have to figfht for their lives in order to overthrow corrupt dictators often make bad misjudgements at a later date. Still, a sensible assessment would weigh those against his enormous achievements.

The irony is that its become increasingly obvious that Corbyn is easily as vain, self-absorbed and egotistical as Trump or Farage.

Not to me...

You not been watching Molls?

He's absolutely revelling in his utterly ineffectual, almost comically awful personality cult.

As long as he gets to receive the adulation of the Momentum sixth formers, then the total destruction of the Labour Party, and permanent Tory hegemony doesn't seem to even register with him

The only thing he's ever looked like he could really be arsed about was his own re-election

It's all just a big self-indulgent ego trip

What's the point? It's just frilling round the edges. The only thing that will save labour is big game-changing stuff now. I

There is a lot of a point, both in the policy and in the signals it sends about embracing Brexit and the opportunity it presents

1. Get rid of Corbyn and replace him with ?????

2. Embrace brexit. Stop sitting on the fence and start exposing the tories on their incompetent dithering.

3. Come up with an immigration policy which protects british jobs whilst allowing immigration as and when it's needed. (that means actually saying so, with none of this 'protecting communities from pirate bosses' rubbish)

4. Declare themselves opponents of international free trade.

5. Launch a committed and zero-tolerance assault on the rich and corporates for not paying their taxes.

6. Promote the regions,

allow Scotland independence-light.

Call out the Northen Powerhouse for what it is.

7. Bring in some truly populist policies like legalising drugs (debatable but we're ready for it.

is there dithering?

Probably for the other thread but they're not planning on invoking article 50 til march, and still haven't come up with a strategy or said what it is they plan on proposing to the EU to settle the many issues on the table. Yes, it's very complex (so complex to be unachievable IMO), but all we've seen so far is inaction, indecision, conflicted messages, wishful thinking and general incompetence. I'd say dithering is a pretty charitable description of what's happened since June.

but what is the policy?

This is exactly the point. People don't care about policy. Have you not heard that they're sick of experts telling them what's best for them? They want someone to be their champion, to represent their interests and speak the same language as them. I keep saying it, but Bernie Sanders has this nailed down. The broad brush message is more important than clever policy. Corbyn doesn't get this at all. He thinks if he presents lots of clever left wing policies people will rationally think about them and agree because that's what sensible, logical, informed and intelligent people do. If the last year has proved anything it's that there aren't enough people like that out there to win an election.

First 20 odd minutes of This Week are well worth watching ... the intro on Castro is excellent 🙂

First 20 odd minutes of This Week are well worth watching

Who is Jamie Carragher? 😀