Most people who are anti-immigration are not racists, or don't want to be labelled with racist views, and his stance gives them an opportunity approach the issue from a different angle, and the fact that by supporting free movement it also opens the door to remaining in the single market is a massive bonus.
Daz. Couldn't agree with you more.
He's the first politician who has signalled he's willing to address the immigration issue with more nuance than a right wing 'stop it all now!!!' or a complete open door policy, without any intention of addressing the issues and challenges that that brings. Its going to be really interesting to hear what he has to say. But its encouraging that he's had the balls to mention the elephant in the room.
where immigration means competition for scarce jobs and resources
Honestly curious about this.
Why would EU immigrants go to a place where jobs are scarce?
To call for unity, while at the same time refusing to support a major democratically decided party policy (Trident) is just not credible.
I think it is. I do it all the time. "Well, I don't want to do XYZ today but because we want to to something together as a family I'll go along anyway. Then this afternoon I'll go out on my bike when everyone's chilling after XYZ."
I honestly don't see a problem with that. We've already slagged Blair off endlessly for bending the party to his own personal aims. You want Corbyn to do the same thing? Or you want to kick out the leader every time there's any conflict? Or you want him to lie?
I'm no doubt in a minority, but I think his stance on immigration, and by extension free movement, is potentially a huge vote winner.
Not sure about huge, but handled correctly a vote winner for sure. But...
As I've previously said, IMO the knee-jerk racism immigration causes is borne of ignorance, not intention.
Is the polite version
Most people who are anti-immigration are not racists, or don't want to be labelled with racist views,
much more the latter IMO - closest racism has just been exposed in all its glory
and his stance gives them an opportunity approach the issue from a different angle, and the fact that by supporting free movement it also opens the door to remaining in the single market is a massive bonus.
True - good for him for rejecting numerical targets. We shall see on the rest. Unfortunately, I feel that his good intentions here will be swamped by the simple fact that a significant element of his target voters are xenophobic bordering on racist and its much easily to blame Johnny for their current woes than to tackle the root causes.
Why would EU immigrants go to a place where jobs are scarce?
They dont - they go to places where the demand for labour exceeds its supply
where immigration means competition for scarce jobs and resources.Honestly curious about this.
Why would EU immigrants go to a place where jobs are scarce?
Maybe the jobs weren't as scarce before a huge influx of immigrants?
There are examples of companies only advertising jobs in Eastern Europe as they know they can get away with much lower rates of pay, for example.
This is the kind of thing that needs to be addressed, instead of lazily labelling things as being the fault of immigrants. Its the company doing that that is at fault, not the immigrants. Yet guess who gets the blame?
If Jeremy is going to try and broaden the debate, and shift the discussion onto these issues rather than go for quick, easy answers then good on him.
Politicians on the right have just casually blamed migrants for anything and everything. Using them as scapegoats, while at the same time exploiting their labour. All very cynical.
But they've got away with this because politicians of the left have been terrified of the subject, as they think even mentioning it will undermine their liberal metropolitan credentials
Jeremy will have a huge battle, changing the narrative on immigrants
It's one May has been a big fan of head in the sand all immigrants = evil.
It was used to great effect by Vote Leave, remeber Farage and his poster?
More importantly the Murdoch press and Daily mail etc are still obsessed with scapegoating immigrants in the time honoured tradition of right wing propagandaists, just look at the bonkers DM front page with a headline since shoen to be 100% lies
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The failure of the government to regulate the press means they can keep pumping out their nonsense with no repercussions
Which is why they can completely ignore what Corbyn is trying to talk about and today publish their own version of what he said
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Yes good for Jez.
During the Brexit campaign he stuck up for immigration aswell. Maybe that's why the PLP got pissed off with him.
Good points binners.
They dont - they go to places where the demand for labour exceeds its supply
I didn't realise that Rochdale had such a vibrant economy
Unfortunately, I feel that his good intentions here will be swamped by the simple fact that a significant element of his target voters are xenophobic bordering on racist and its much easily to blame Johnny for their current woes than to tackle the root causes.
Is this how you characterise Gillian Duffy?
Guardians take on Labour right now:
[i]Labour has become a coalition and, as Owen Jones suggested in a recent essay, one way forward might be a proper coalition agreement.[/i]
Problem with that is that if it is in the open, the UK can't stand coalitions as Ed Ball acknowledged the other night.
Good to see the united Labour hasn't lasted even a couple of days, with senior figures having a pop at Tom Watson, who lets remember is the deputy of the party.
Good to see the united Labour hasn't lasted even a couple of days, with senior figures having a pop at Tom Watson, who lets remember is the deputy of the party.
So you don't subscribe to the view that TW's speech yesterday was a brazen attempt to position himself for a future leadership bid?
Seemed to me that he was just pointing out that endlessly banging on about Iraq, spitting the word 'Blairite Scum', 'Tory-lite', and 'Red Tory' at anyone who you disagree with, while denying all the things the last labour government achieved, is not only juvenile sixth form common room nonsense, but that its also massively self-defeating
Andy Burnham has just deployed his ejector seat
Seemed to me that he was just pointing out that endlessly banging on about Iraq, spitting the word 'Blairite Scum', 'Tory-lite', and 'Red Tory' at anyone who you disagree with
That may be true, but was it the right time? Seems to me that when others (on both sides) are trying to draw a line under the past year of stupidity and at least project the image of being constructive, he comes wading in stoking up the fire again. Not that I'd expect anything else from one of Brown's ex-henchmen. As Blair himself experienced, political skullduggery and naked amibition is the modus operandi for that lot.
He should stick to going to music festivals. Future leader?
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Good to see the united Labour hasn't lasted even a couple of days, with senior figures having a pop at Tom Watson, who lets remember is the deputy of the party.
Plus of course, Lilly Allen.
Oh no. Now it really is all over... 🙁
😈 Seen his brand of Cider?
Maybe they should have just re-wriiten his speech and just put it on the autocue Daz 😉
Regulated press? No thanks.
Of course, it's easy to spit vitriol at the Fail/Torygraph/Grauniad/Sunday Sport because they don't align with your political angle, but a free press with some you don't agree with is way, way better than the alternative.
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Have spoken to Tom Watson a few times at Hacked Off events. Good speaker. Someone I respect.
Seamus Milne supposedly stepping down amongst rumours its impossible to work with Corbyn. Interesting to see how this plays out as he returns to the Guardian a paper highly critical of Corbyn
Andy Burnham getting out as well
I wonder when Baroness Chakrabati's appointment to the Shadow Cabinet will be announced ?
CaptainFlashheart - Member
Regulated press? No thanks.
Call me a fantasist but I think there may be some middle ground between stalinist russia and stuff like this
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Spotted this
The Labour leader may exasperate his fellow MPs, but they can do little about it as his mandate means he isn't going anywhere. "Jeremy is like an alpaca," one MP despaired to me last night. "He's lovely, but f---ing useless".
I wonder when Baroness Chakrabati's appointment to the Shadow Cabinet will be announced ?
She can fight with Lady Nugee over who has precedence
http://order-order.com/2016/09/28/labour-director-of-communications-runners-and-riders/
So Seamus is bailing
Alpacas are delicious eating, able to live in very harsh conditions, have very efficient digestive system so require much less food than similar grazing stock and produce very lovely soft fleecy wool
granted not traits you'd want in a party leader, but a strange analogy, none the less as they are far frome useless
Kimbers, of course there's a middle ground. We both chose extreme examples for effect, or at least I know I did! I just prefer press freedom to state controlled* media.
*Sorry, I meant "press regulation" obviously. 😉
big_n_daft - MemberSo Seamus is bailing
Being denied at the moment. (supposedly he's on a 12 month secondment/contract as it stands and is supposed to be returning to the Guardian pretty much now, so who knows what that all means in practice. Obviously if he does decide to go back to the paper it'll be depicted as him abandoning Corbyn regardless)
to the Guardian a paper highly critical of Corbyn
Have you been reading it?
Tone has definitely shifted since the leadership challenge.
Watson was describing Corbyn supporters/ momentum as Trots wasn't he? Or did he acknowledge that in his speech? ie say both sides need to pack it in.
A few minutes until the second coronation speech - "mandate" spread? 2:40-3:40 - takers?
His shadow education (?) seemed to have lost the immigration script earlier.
Please neither OJ or chippy Mason to take over from our Wykehamist friend - "Establishment" bingo coming up!!!
Seven minutes forty seconds, four minutes out - too many thank yous to fit in first!
Has he praised Jackie Walker yet?
No just her brother Johnny
(factual inaccuracies aside, not as bad as expected so far)
Just trying to work out who the people sitting at the front are. Any ideas?
good stuff from jezza, hes actually been popping some personality pills or something
I like this
Of course that doesn’t mean giving a blank cheque to Theresa May and her three-legged team of fractious Brexiteers, as they try to work up a negotiating plan and squabble about whose turn it is to have the Chevening country retreat each weekend. We have made it clear that we will resist a Brexit at the expense of workers’ rights and social justice we have set out our red lines on employment, environmental and social protection and on access to the European market."
good stuff from jezza, hes actually been popping some personality pills or something
No doubt the naysayers will be along in a minute with their marxist-leninist-sixth-form-trotskyist-revolutionary rubbish, but I didn't hear much there that many normal working people would disagree with. It's a million miles away though from the 'we need to change the narrative to being a party of aspiration' rubbish which we've had from previous leaders.
7.5/10 😉 for improved presentation
3/10 for lightweight content
still small steps....
It was the same the day after Benn resigned , he was all fired up at PMQs, I think it takes a bit of party infighting to get him fired up
content was a bit light but sounds like hes developing some sort of narrative
he shouldve been hounding may & the 3 stooges over brexit for a while though, the tories are obviously in dissaray over what is looking like an increasingly impossible task, just a shame that labour cant deal with their own issues!
@molgrips I hadn't personally noticed but I'll take your word for it
Has he praised Jackie Walker yet?
Momentum co-chair/founder just can't help herself, been suspended once for anti-Semitism (only just re-instated) managed to weigh into a JLM anti-Semitism training event (filmed by Telegraph) shooting her mouth off and being offensive. Likely to be suspended again for anti-Semitism as a result. She is right in one regard, she hasn't been given a definition of anti-Semitism she can work with 😐
As an aside the Haolocaust Day events I have been to where roughly 50/50 Jewish Holocaust vs others inc Rawanda, Srebrenicia. Ms Walker has coearly never been to one.
Corbyn, he was definitely much better. It is not that hard after you read "strong emphasis here" last time 😀
Local authorities can borrow against council houses and spend it on what they want 😯 😯 😯 whilst Corbyn suggests more housing in practice they'll borrow for 25 years and spend it on day to day services, spend today - repent [s]at leisure[/s] never
At least McDonnell confirmed the £500bn includes the £250bn for the Investment Bank rather in addition to, well for now anyway.
The notion that a Labour Government would invest in wealth creating business is laughable really, even a Tory Govt can't manage a business / enterprise the Labour party are totally unsuitable for such an activity
Heres what you could have won:
the tories are obviously in dissaray over what is looking like an increasingly impossible task, just a shame that labour cant deal with their own issues!
@kimbers I do have to sincerely congratulate you on a positive attitude, no amount of reality is going to deter you 😉
My prediction: no general election in 2017, Article 50 in Feb 2017, Brexit completed before Feb 2019
Tom Watson. Excellent speech, standing ovation when he said Labour shouod celebrate the achievements of the last Labour Government and not spend the time doing it down. Corbyn at rooted to his seat barely a token clap. Watson acknowledged it is the private sector which pays for schools and hospitals, the electorate know that and Labour must too.
Of course Corbyn and everyone knows that. Ccorvyn's not advocating nationalising everything now is he?
Jamba - I did like the line that [i] "the eleven years of Labour government between 1997 and 2008 were a completely unbroken period of economic growth"[/i]
😉
I thought Corbyn was at his best and pretty good. The first half of Tom Watson's I thought was dire and nearly stopped watching, but when he started talking up the Blair/Brown years I actually got goose bumps and it seemed to set the place alight. Glad I stuck with it.
Wonder if the plan is to sideline Corbyn and set campaign strategy without consulting him.
"Jamba - I did like the line that "the eleven years of Labour government between 1997 and 2008 were a completely unbroken period of economic growth"
You might call 11 years of growth a 'boom' but it can't have been 'cos both booms and busts had ended... 🙂
Seriously though, bigging up Labour's record in office is the right strategy. Maybe if Milliband had done that he'd be PM right now. Telling voters the last time your party was in power was a disaster isn't really a vote winner.
You couldn't make it up:
Telling voters the last time your party was in power was a disaster isn't really a vote winner.
It isn't rocket science or a political thriller worthy of the Ides of March is it ? 😉
McCluscy doesn't seem to realise that the Unions pushing around Labour is as toxic as Sturgeon saying she could make Milliband Prime Minister.
@ninfan yes indeed, there is a joke in asset management that if you can't find an index you have out-performed you should't be in the business. 1997-2008 we'll just ignore 2009-10 (due to media bias ?)
@ninfan yes indeed, there is a joke in asset management that if you can't find an index you have out-performed you should't be in the business.
Most AM firms shouldn't be in business then - especially when costs are included in performance. Its a bit like brexit, all the data shows that AM fail to achieve sustained outperformance and yet anecdotally I have never met a PM who has underperformed!! Odd that...