Jeremy Corbyn

“Capitalism is not the enemy, money is not the problem, business isn’t bad. The real world is more complicated than that, as any practical trade unionist will tell you.

“Businesses are where people work. The private sector generates money to pay for our schools and hospitals. I don’t say this to win elections. I say it because it’s true, and people know that it’s true. That is why it wins elections.”

Burn him!

Who forgot the magic autocue spray to cleanse this speech? Outrageous, no wonder Lennie was so unhappy.

“It confused me, it seemed to be saying that New Labour and the ‘third way’ was the way forward again. Now, it doesn’t surprise me because Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell are putting forward an alternative. The right wing of the party have got no vision so they are going back to yesteryear,”

His irony filter seems to be broken. Because having Derek Hatton back at the conference, saying how chuffed he is that Jeremy, Len, John and all their Union chums are now dictating policy will have every voter welcoming in this bright new [s]return to 1979[/s] future come the next general election

having Derek Hatton back at the conference

Would that be the Derek Hatton of yesteryear or the Property Developer version of today? Not that I'm defending him, I can't stand the bloke, but if you're going to use him as a stick with which to beat Corbyn, then that should be the 2016 version of him not the 1980s one.

then that should be the 2016 version of him not the 1980s one.

has he changed his political views then ???

has he changed his political views then ???

No idea. Not sure being a property developer and having your own media company is particularly compatible with being a 1980s trotskyist revolutionary though.

His irony filter seems to be broken. Because having Derek Hatton back at the conference, saying how chuffed he is that Jeremy, Len, John and all their Union chums are now dictating policy will have every voter welcoming in this bright new return to 1979 future come the next general election

Yeah but don't forget, to the bright young things of Momental, anything further back than 1990 is pre-history shrouded in the mists of time before time.

Nice to see such enthusiasm getting ready for the condemnation of historic repetion...

to the bright young things of Momental, anything further back than 1990 is pre-history shrouded in the mists of time before time.

Or maybe they're more interested in looking forward? It seems to me that the only people banging on about the 1970s/80s are the ones who are still stuck in the late 90s. Blairism/3rd Way is now a 20 year old philosophy. Is it just possible that things might have moved on since then?

Derek Hatton. He does look better with the beard. Funny how once a lefty politician gets off that gravy train he truns into a property developer.

Here is a hint for the Labour supporters, Hatton is electoral poison.

@dazh free money (citizens income), £500bn of borrowing and nationalisation is most definitely the past. It's an electoral open goal to point out that the kids all for it have not witnessed the disaster that Labour in the '70/80's where. IMF bailouts amd all.

Here is a hint for the Labour supporters, Hatton is electoral poison.

But, daaaaaaamn he looks HOT! 😀

Baroness Chakrabati appointment to the Shadow Cabinet expected to be confired very shortly.

Unelected and rewarded for her whitewash with a £75k-£100k pa job and a life peerage. Corbyn's politics in action

I disagree on UBI btw, wherever its been trialed , its been a success with productivity increases and econimic gains throughout the board.
Trialed i seem to recall in a district of Holland, Canada and i think Nigeria

free money (citizens income)

Funny I can't remember UBI being done in the past? Or are you counting Thatcher deliberately throwing millions onto the scrapheap and making it easy to claim the dole as a citizens 'income'?

£500bn of borrowing

The bank bailouts would suggest it is still a very modern concept.

and nationalisation is most definitely the past.

All the big privatisations happened over 20 years ago, and have in most cases proven to be an abject failure characterised by under-investment, incompetence, and monopolist companies ripping off consumers to line their shareholders pockets.

So what is the future? More socialism for the rich I suppose?

It seems to me that the only people banging on about the 1970s/80s are the ...

.. Tories who want to twist everything into tribal attacks on Labour without any real substance...?

Tories who want to twist everything into tribal attacks on Labour without any real substance...?

could be Molgrips... could be

or more worryingly perhaps even..

The sort of people who saw that their mate John got knocked off his bike..
They discovered that John was eating a sandwich whilst riding along, so to avoid getting knocked off their bike themselves they have decided never to eat sandwiches again

Anyway... Tory party conference next. Everyones been focussing on labour this week, which has all been fun and games, but never underestimate the appetite of the Tory party to start a civil war over Europe. I suspect thats the reason we've heard very little capitalising on the bickering in the labour party, which given the apocalyptic forecasts, hasn't actually been that bad

I expect to hear the words 'Brexit means Brexit' abut 90 million times from Theresa. I expect that the more reasoned cameroony wing will be arguing for a 'soft' Brexit involving staying part of the single market, with free movement, while the rabid right wing mentalists will be demanding that we carpet bomb Dresden (again)

I like to ride up a steep rocky climb by my house. It's hard, and I failed at first. However I didn't conclude that it was stupid and give up MTBing. I kept trying til I got it right.

We do this often in real life. So why would we conclude Socialism is bad simply because a particular set of governments failed 30 years ago?

Wait, I know this one - it's because people with a vested interest in the failure of Socialism have managed to fool those who have a vested interest in its success.

Well, it's working a treat in Venezuela.

Oh...hold on.....

I like to ride up a steep rocky climb by my house. It's hard, and I failed at first. However I didn't conclude that it was stupid and give up MTBing. I kept trying til I got it right.

CaptainFlashheart - Member
Well, it's working a treat in Venezuela.
Oh...hold on.....

Big success on the Soviet Union, too. And China, where they've adopted, er, Capitalism as an engine of growth...

I'm not talking about communism, obviously.

I thought you were about to launch into a pro-Brexit monologue for a minute.

More likely to be a pro EU metaphor.. it all depends on what the top of the hill means to you. For me, it means working together with our neighbours and having open doors. To others maybe it means standing alone?

Wait - hold on a minute.

Is all this argument over socialism simply a mis-understanding of the definition of the word?

We do this often in real life. So why would we conclude Socialism is bad simply because a particular set of governments failed 30 years ago?

Read [url= https://www.amazon.co.uk/Animal-Farm-Penguin-Modern-Classics/dp/0141182709 ]this[/url] it will help explain.

I despise the tories and what they stand for, however I'm not stupid enough to think that Trotsky socialism will work

I'm not stupid enough to think that Trotsky socialism will work

Me neither.

I think we do have a communication problem, because that's not what I mean.

but never underestimate the appetite of the Tory party to start a civil war over Europe

Indeed. If anyone thought the brexit vote was going to put to bed tory divisions over Europe, they were sadly mistaken. Ironically I think it could make them worse. It's a massive opportunity for the labour party. If labour can maintain a semblance of unity, agree a line of attack on brexit around retention of free movement/membership of the single market, then they can expose tory divisions and construct a popular view of tory incompetence and division dragging the country down a brexit hole that they themselves created.

Funny to think that a couple of months ago everyone was praising the tories for sorting themselves out and installing May in contrast to the labour chaos, and now the situation could well be reversed.

It's a massive opportunity for the labour party.

Not really because Labour voters are as split as the Tories over this.

Indeed everyone is spilt on EU (and on the race issue that lies underneath). If Jezza is sensible he can "make" this an issue for the Tories and that should be very easy to do. Theresa has her hands full with the three buffoons. Ok, to keep you enemies close but it can easily backfire. We shall see...

Re UBI - (1) I would like to see the evidence that trials have been 100% successful and (2) as someone who is sypathetic to the idea, I think you will find that Labour do not believe in UBI in its true sense as a substitute to welfare/benefits but as a complement/addition to it. As an employer I am largely unsympathetic to that idea especially if it is dressed up as UBI.

OOI, what is the Labour position of Europe?

If Jezza is sensible he can "make" this an issue for the Tories and that should be very easy to do.

Yeah, just present a clear vision of what Labour want and unite the party behind it.. oh wait..

Re UBI - (1) I would like to see the evidence that trials have been 100% successful

Also define success - I have a feeling that one of its key benefits may be hard to actually measure in quantitative terms.

Tell me more....I am all ears mol

Greater public happiness...

If Jezza is sensible he can "make" this an issue for the Tories and that should be very easy to do.

Just as the tories did with potraying the deficit as a result of labour overspending, brexit is labour's opportunity to do the same. As the brexit cluster**** develops and things start unravelling (they already are and we haven't even said we're leaving yet), all labour have to do is say 'this is their mess, and they're incapable of cleaning it up', and everything bad that happens over the next 4 years can be explained with this one simple message.

dazh UBI is just today's name for the old fashioned left wing give away paid for by someone else or maybe that's the McDonnell magic as it has to be paid for by no one ? UBI and unlimited immigration (remember Corbyn is ok with that), what could possibly go wrong ?

Socialism as proposed by Corbyn and McDonnell isn't working anywhere, imho nor can it possibly work unkess you have a totally closed economy. Even China doesn't have fhe sort of Marxist economy McDonnell is after.

You'd only get greater public happiness if people could give up work. I'm deffo one of those people who could afford to live in sort of "Good Life" manner on a small state handout but I couldn't give up work because I couldn't be sure UBI would continue. So I'd end up getting given some cash which was taxed back away from me.

The biggest advantage is the simplicity that allows a load of civil servants to be sacked and savings made but I fear that might not happen in reality.

Dazh there won't be a GE before 2020 for the exact reason that the Tories won't allow one as it would deteriortae into a "Brexit is going to be a disaster" shouting match. Execute A50 in 2017, all done by 2019 and then in 2020 you have real facts to evaluate. Add in my scneario that by that point you'll have had huge economic issues in Europe and the scenario is that Brexit and the UK look golden. Job's a good 'un

Execute A50 in 2017, all done by 2019

It's for the other thread, but do you really believe that's going to happen? I thought I was a dreamer!

UBI is just today's name for the old fashioned left wing give away paid for by someone else

Or it's a potential solution to the problem of keeping the population occupied in a future world where technology, AI and mechanisation begin to replace people's jobs across huge swathes of the economy.

dazh UBI is just today's name for the old fashioned left wing give away paid for by someone else

No, it's using public resources to make the country a better place. But Tories be Tories - "THIS IS ALL MINE YOU'RE GETTING IT GO **** YOURSELF!"

Socialism as proposed by Corbyn and McDonnell isn't working anywhere

Bollocks. Nationalised rail? Works nicely in lots of places. Places whose rail services we go on about how great they are.

Remind me again what Corbyn's proposing Jam?

You'd only get greater public happiness if people could give up work

No.. it's more subtle than that. With UBI, the balance of power shifts from employers to employees, at the lower end of the job market. Shit job? Abusive exploitative boss? You can simply leave then look for another. So employers have to make their jobs more attractive by being better employers.

You think Sports Direct would've happened if the staff could've just walked out?

molgrips - Member
Greater public happiness...

I said tell me more not less.

Judging by your comments and Jambas - some clarification of UBI would be helpful.

The key issue is whether UBI is a replacement for benefits (poss a v good idea) or a top up (poss a v bad idea). I fear that in Labour's eyes, it is v much the latter.

Just as the tories did with potraying the deficit as a result of labour overspending, brexit is labour's opportunity to do the same. As the brexit cluster**** develops and things start unravelling (they already are and we haven't even said we're leaving yet), all labour have to do is say 'this is their mess, and they're incapable of cleaning it up', and everything bad that happens over the next 4 years can be explained with this one simple message.

Q possibly which is why we should all have a common interest in minimising the [s]role[/s] harm that these folk have on the economy.

Corbyn's support for Brexit 😉 will soon be forgotten and the blame for the forthcoming cock-up will sit right in Therea's lap. History has a habit of repeating itself. While this offers a glimmer of hope for the Croydonista's and the Militants, it is a scary prospect for the rest of us.

"You'd only get greater public happiness if people could give up work"

"No.. it's more subtle than that. With UBI, the balance of power shifts from employers to employees ... You can simply leave then look for another."

No? From your comment you mean 'yes'.

UBI is free money to encourage those who don't vote to register and vote Labour. UBI isn't really enough to live on so welfare top up would be required.

Re wages at sh.t jobs we have the minimum wage to address that

You think Sports Direct would've happened if the staff could've just walked out?

AFAIK the majority of Sports Direct warehouse staff are not UK citizens, far from walking out they have travelled a long way to work there.

Unintended consequences ? Jobs like waiters go unpaid, tips only ? It could be zero hour contracts on steriods ?

UBI is free money to encourage those who don't vote to register and vote Labour. UBI isn't really enough to live on so welfare top up would be required.

How do you reach that conclusion when you don't know its structure or its level? At this stage, its the concept that's important. It certainly is not 'free money" nor is it a LW idea - its not far away from many RW Libertarian concepts even those articulated by Milton&Co

AFAIK the majority of Sports Direct warehouse staff are not UK citizens, far from walking out they have travelled a long way to work there.

😯

No? From your comment you mean 'yes'.

I meant - it doesn't necessarily allow people to give up work permanently. Just gives them a safety net that can help at a push.

More part-time work would mean more people doing more of what they love and less of what they hate. Which could have a profound effect on society imo.

Jobs like waiters go unpaid, tips only ?

Why wouldn't minimum wage apply? It would have to, otherwise employers would simply cut wages. It would also need some kind of rent control too.

It would need a huge amount of careful thinking and trialling. It's a big idea, and we need big ideas IMO like we haven't seen since the post-war period.

it wouldnt be necessary

oops:

[IMG] [/IMG]

You are boring.