Jeremy Corbyn

Boardin bob/Jambalaya:

Bit of a tangent, but your graphs agree with each other!

Wonder how Cameron feels about the shit storm his blasé attitude has dumped on us?

You said it yourself - blasé. DGAS

Boardin bob/Jambalaya:

Bit of a tangent, but your graphs agree with each other!

@airtragic Indeed they do 🙂

@Boarding you are mixing up debt and deficit, until the deficit goes to zero (or positive) debt is going to keep rising

It is of course perfectly possible to be Jewish and anti-Zionist.

@ernie yes its possible but very rare. Zionism simply means the belief in right of the Jewish people to their own homeland. Many try to twist it into a euphamism for Israeli government policy but thats not what it is and the twisting is a deliberate attempt to discredit that right. It is much more common to be Jewish and disagree with the actions of the Israeli government. We have Israeli friends who left for that very reason

also debt and deficit are 2 concepts that rely importantly on what the money is being used for.
Future time bombs like student loans need to be factored in.
Investing in skills and training through university education would be a good use of spending.
Perhaps a proper look at inheritance taxation too.

@mike I agree debt/deficit are a time bomb, thats why I support the Tory agenda to get it under control. Where we would differ I think is you would prefer a different approach. Interesting you mention IHT as a potential too for addressing debt given its "not acceptable" to use it for health costs

The Naylor report.
It's in the Tory manifesto, out in the open.
£10 billion of public money to be spent to assist the firesale of NHS assets.

There you go, it's now out there, absolutely raw and naked. The Tories will sell off the NHS and use our own money in the process

Only TMs regressive capped version is unacceptable

Sorry if I'm being thick here, has inheritance tax been abbreviated to IHT?

Full video

Interesting you mention IHT as a potential too for addressing debt given its "not acceptable" to use it for health costs

Corbyn may not be ideal, but what he's doing right now is showing us that he can grow into the job.

No, he just trolling us with his "working for peace" everytime someone looks at his favourite causes, Brexit is not in anyway associated with him despite campaigning? on that platform for 35 years, add in the fantasy economics of the "no debt" bonds for nationalisations, the "costed" childcare policy which is set at below the cost of provision etc etc

He is no doubt helped by the glum-bucket view of the world pedalled by May who is trying very hard to throw the whole thing.

.

The Labour manifesto is fully costed?! Lol, sure if you accept the estimated costs of some of the proposals, many don't.

I think JC could be a good PM, he's certainly the type of person we at least need to try once or twice. I'm not convinced he could form a credible government though, most of the more talented Labour MPs have alienated themselves from him so he'd be picking from a much reduced 'talent' pool.

Also with Brexit on it's way can we really afford the economic gamble of a more socialist government? I'm not convinced myself. Mind you whoever gets in is going to blame Brexit if the economy tanks so could be a handy get out of jail free card for JC.

That said I won't be voting Tory either

Much as I think the idea of a hung parliament is wishful thinking, I wonder if the Libdems hold the balance of power, what their terms would be this time around? Second EU ref?

@mike I agree debt/deficit are a time bomb, thats why I support the Tory agenda to get it under control.

Then why support a party that has historically borrowed double what Labour have done in the same period?

I know we're all talking about this as May/Corbyn, but can I ask people their experiences on a local constituency level?

I live in an ultra-marginal seat where the Tory MP has a majority of 300. The Lib Dems and Greens have bowed out so its a straight fight between Labour and the Tory's

The local candidate and labour party have been hyper-active. Loads of election material, leaflets through the door, people out canvassing, all over the local press, and social meeja. Campaigning on local issues like the closure of the local NHS walk-in centre, and potential downgrading of local A&E facilities (both supported by our Tory MP, but very unpopular locally)

And that sitting Tory MP? Not a squeak! Nothing! It's become a running joke. Nobody has seen him. There's no election material, no leaflets, no social media campaign. All we've had was that controversial local rag cover wrap, a few weeks ago....
[img] ?w=700&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=96a7df1c94acac6f0597fef5de321e2c[/img]

So this campaign was clearly all meant to be about the glorious leader. All nationally focussed. Ignoring local campaiging in favour of 'Strong and Stable'. All about May.

But if what I'm seeing is being replicated around the country, I think that this arrogant and complacent attitude, which has come from the top down, could be about to deliver a bit of a shock! Particularly in marginal constituencies

What are everyone else's experiences of campaigning at a local level? Is this common eleswhere?

Corbyn is undoubtedly a man of deeply held principles but does not appear to have any leadership ability.
The 'fully costed' manifesto is welcome but based on naive assumptions that corporations and wealthy individuals will sit idly while corporation tax rises & higher rate taxes are implemented. Experience tells us they won't.

I have no idea why [i]you[/i] have come to your own assumption that Corbyn is somehow unaware that corporations and wealthy individuals will not sit idly while corporation tax rises & higher rate taxes are implemented.

Of course they don't want to pay their fair share of taxes. Of course they want the UK to become even more of a tax haven post-Brexit under Theresa May.

And you think Jeremy Corbyn doesn't know that?

Why?

They have been in an hysterical panic ever since he first became leader of the Labour Party two years ago. The Daily Telegraph, for example, has been telling us on a daily basis since then what a terrible person Corbyn is. Corbyn is apparently an extreme left-wing misogynist anti-Semitic racist terrorist who hates Britain, don't you know?

Corbyn knows damn well that anyone who challenges the status quo and cosy relationships within the establishment/elite can expect the full force of their fury and every obstacle imaginable. He knows damn well that if he wins on June 8th the real battle will begin and everything before it will have been like a walk in the park.

They will do everything they can to sabotage him and his government, they always do. Just look at what they did to Harold Wilson because he introduced significant far reaching reforms which benefited ordinary working people. You think Corbyn doesn't know his history?

And far from lacking "leadership ability" he proved last year how preforms under pressure. His enemies within the party establishment tried to bully, cajole, and cheat him out of the leadership.

Despite the intense and unprecedented pressure he remained loyal to those who elected him, fought back, and eventually bounced back with an even larger majority. Many would have buckled at the first bit of pressure - Boris Johnson threw in the towel and abandoned his Tory leadership ambitions within minutes of Michael Gove announcing that he would stand against him.

In the end all the Tories proved to be spineless and they decided to chose a leader without having an election.

I have no idea why you have come to your own assumption that Corbyn is somehow unaware that corporations and wealthy individuals will not sit idly while corporation tax rises & higher rate taxes are implemented.

But it's not about the ideology, it's about the practicalities. They take their business elsewhere and the state has less money to spend, not more. You can't borrow forever. I'm sure you've got a clever doctrinal counter-argument but finding a balance between the 2 camps is the essence for me, and I suspect taking more than half of people's income is the tipping point for many.

They take their business elsewhere and the state has less money to spend, not more.

Have a look at the corporation tax rate in competitor countries, and tell us why their industries haven't relocated en masse to the UK...

What are everyone else's experiences of campaigning at a local level? Is this common eleswhere?

Where I live, posters are usually pretty evenly split between Labour, Lib Dems and the Greens. This time it's exclusively Labour - I haven't seen a single poster for any other party.

@ binners
Locally the MP has been active out and about and in the town centre etc.
Some Tory pamphlets through door[ more than labour] though all from central office/stressing may /saying how terrible Corbyn will be. TBH i dont even know the name or gender of their candidate though its fair to say I dont read all the leaflet from the tories so it must be there just not very prominent

I dont think it will play well here as the local A & E has shut down so local matters do count here. Original tory swing/lead meant the MP lost his seat I imagine he is feeling more confident these days

EDIT: Also not seen a tory banner or window pledge but only seen 3 labour ones- two of which are billboards

They take their business elsewhere and the state has less money to spend, not more.

The businesses that don't pay tax anyway?
The businesses that don't pay enough wages for people to live off, then the State has to pay benefits to top them up?
The private rail operators that make a profit and still get subsidies, then charge their passengers the highest fares in Europe?

I don't rate Corbyn, however, this current Tory shower are a joke.

I lean to the right on somethings and to left on others but now I think we need to shake this whole mess up.

Unfortunately I live in a 20,000 Tory majority seat so can't do much about it.

I just wish he would get his act together with the media, he knows they are going to be gunning for him, so prepare for it. Dump Dianne as well.

Not seen my sitting Tory MP. He doesn't have to bother as the next-placed party in pretty much every previous election has decided not put forward a candidate this time around.

So I have a choice of Labour or the Greens, both of whom have absolutely zero chance of even getting close.

Labour could do with someone to be nasty about Tories/ May.

I cant believe they are letting May make fun of how Corbyn looks naked and get away with it.

Here in Calderdale our local Tory [s]MP[/s] **** is so unpopular at our our end of the valley that he wouldn't dare show his face. He's so hated in fact that even the local Tory councillor is standing against him as an independent, which hopefully will eat into his 7000ish majority.

Bit of an odd one

Our pro brexit tory MP has just dissapeared, had a couple of 'corbyn is dangerous flyers' and a few for the labour candidate, who has been canvassing a lot and trying to debate our MP, but, hes having none of it,

hes like a ghost in MK

8k majority in a pro brexit town, with Strong & Stable mummy vs commie corbs- hes obviously got better things to do

so the labour candidate has put out this video

airtragic - Member

But it's not about the ideology, it's about the practicalities. They take their business elsewhere and the state has less money to spend, not more. You can't borrow forever. I'm sure you've got a clever doctrinal counter-argument

No I don't have a clever doctrinal counter-argument.

I've made my point that Corbyn like me knows his history. If you think that threats, blackmail, and sabotage, from the wealthy elite and privileged, is more important than putting the many before the few, then voting Labour probably isn't for you.

It's Labour that have vanished where I am, which is odd as from the early 80's until the last GE it was a fairly safe Labour seat.

So no takers on the evidence in the manifesto that the Tory will be selling off NHS assets on a 2 for 1 basis at a COST to the UK taxpayer of £10 Billion?

Its all there, in black and white, its a .gov.uk website document

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/nhs-property-and-estates-naylor-review

All we've had was that controversial local rag cover wrap, a few weeks ago....

Labour and the lib Dems do the same, at least it's some cash into struggling local papers

I share the same MP as Binners, I happily told the canvasser that his candidate is a lemon and is likely to lose the seat almost anyone else would have been better. If labour bother to canvas my street they'll get told that Corbyn and the legacy of Chaytor is the issue, the on labour leaflet I've seen didn't mention Corbyn and had pictures of the candidate with famous Blairites

Local hustings tonight

What are everyone else's experiences of campaigning at a local level?

I have a very low level of political education / understanding but:

I know we're all talking about this as May/Corbyn, but can I ask people their experiences on a local constituency level?

Here its going to be Labour again. I livein a ex post war industrial part of town and to Labour legacy lives on. Our Green candidate - Bill Linton no less - produced such a generic flyer as to be unbelievable.

Personally, I'm try to avoid the slagging matches and although have voted conservative in the past would vote Labour based on manifesto content. The recent media show portraying Corbyn as a pacifist left wing supporter who has failed to balance the books vs May who really does look like a supportive part of "the establishment" is starting to confuse me.

Based on personal preferences of retaining a modicum of pensionable wealth for my future and that I have 2 kids in school I wouldn't vote conservative in my borough in order to influence the country to a Labour majority.

I don't see it as threats or sabotage to be honest, just behavioural effects. I'm not talking about your Monaco-based tax exiles, I'm talking about people like me. I'm (just) a 40% taxpayer, I could take a job abroad when I leave the RAF, not planning to at present because I like it here. Take lots more of my earnings off me and the balance changes, the country loses my taxes, and there are many like me. I know the tax take needs to come up and I'm pretty sure the Tories are planning that too, question is how far can you turn the screw? I would consider voting Labour FYI but I don't think this is the time to further disincentivise inward investment in the U.K. as we're busy doing that anyway with Brexit.

So no takers on the evidence in the manifesto that the Tory will be selling off NHS assets on a 2 for 1 basis at a COST to the UK taxpayer of £10 Billion?

It's £10 Billion to deliver the local Sustainability and Transformation Plans (STPs)

Substantial capital investment is needed to deliver service transformation in well evidenced STP plans. We envisage that the total capital required by these plans is likely to be around £10bn, in the medium term, which could be met by contributions from three sources; property disposals, private capital (for primary care) and from HMT.

https://m.facebook.com/MILKTHECOWPODCAST/photos/a.365608483599768.1073741827.365589150268368/815896688570943/?type=3&source=48

lol kimbers.

ransos - Member
They take their business elsewhere and the state has less money to spend, not more.
Have a look at the corporation tax rate in competitor countries, and tell us why their industries haven't relocated en masse to the UK...

POSTED 45 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

Global trend would appear to be downwards

[url= https://taxfoundation.org/corporate-income-tax-rates-around-world-2016/ ][/url]

12.5% seems to work for Ireland? Agree you don't want a race to the bottom, but surely you're looking for as many favourable elements in a business's PESTEL analysis, or whatever they use these days, as possible?

I have to say, I've just watched the One show with JC.
After the day he had, with the grilling, hysterical press, campaigning, etc he was remarkably composed and personable. Should appeal to middle Englanders in many ways.

As someone on twitter said:
[b]May[/b] on #TheOneShow - I won't put out the bins
[b]Corbyn[/b] on #TheOneShow - I went to Jamaica to fight polio

12.5% seems to work for Ireland?

What are everyone else's experiences of campaigning at a local level? Is this common eleswhere?

They take their business elsewhere and the state has less money to spend, not more.

Where are they going to take their business to?

For example, a quick summary of the corporation tax in the European countries of a similar social/ economic/ educational etc standard to the UK (so ignoring lower level Eastern Europe type countries)

Belgium 33.99%
Denmark 22%
France 33.3%
Germany 23% to 33%
Italy 28%
Netherlands 25%
Norway 24%
Spain 28%
Ireland 12.5% to 25%
Sweden 22%

Then we have the UK at 19% which will drop to 17% in 2020

We could easily increase corporation tax by a couple of points and still be a more attractive country to do business in than almost all on that list

Companies arent about to up sticks and relocate everything to Hungary with its 9% corporation tax

I thought in Brexit Britian it's all about doing the "right thing" and sod the cost.

Couple of percent yes (ignoring brexit). But I worry about the cumulative effect of general tax-side austerity. its a balancing act, if labour get in it'll be interesting to see if a higher tax and spending model works for the UK. My guess is it won't.

Had one leaflet through the door from an independent but I am in a seat where a pact has been done, so not all major parties standing and the I would of voted for the incumbent anyway (Caroline Lucas) but do find it a bit weak I haven't had door knockers or leaflets from her, seems a bit complacent which I don't like but think all the volunteers are probably busy trying to ensure the marginal Tory doesn't get back in, in the adjacent constituency which is less than a mile down the road from me.

The typical scaremongering approach that all companies will leave UK (they won't) and all tax payers will leave the UK (they won't)

Some will yes but not enough to make any difference. People live in the UK because they like it and if they want public services to be improved they need to be paid for. I think a lot of people do actually realise this.

All these people leaving will help get the net migration figures down anyway won't they? bluekip supporters should be happy

I do find it rather amusing/frustrating that many of the people in favour of brexit are adamant businesses won't leave the UK as our economy is too important to their profits.

Give them the argument of raising corporation tax and all of a sudden they'll be leaving in droves...

this just showed up on my FB.

It's from 2013 but really shows Boris up as what he really is.

Stuff like this be getting pushed to the front now.

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2013/mar/24/boris-johnson-accused-nasty-video ]https://www.theguardian.com-boris-johnson-accused-nasty-video[/url]

This stuff happened in your life so you do know about it

Nice rebuttal

I can only imagine what would have happened were this Dianne doing this or say flip flopping on the EU issue
He is personal, morally and politically a rather dislikable individual with few if any principles.

Still he is funny on HIGNFY so all is forgiven eh

I can only imagine what would have happened were this Dianne doing this or say flip flopping on the EU issue

This is part of Labours problem though.

They know it's not really a fair fight, Murdoch, Branson, Green etc all help to give them a kicking. However, why don't they change their tactics? Stop sending Dianne over the top into the waiting guns of the media. Get her away from the front bench and any media. She is just not savvy enough.

Why aren't they "going to the mattresses"? Start posting stuff on social media, show the U turns and the lying.

This is the worry. Are they really that naive?

airtragic - Member

if labour get in it'll be interesting to see if .....

"If" Labour get in? What would do you mean if Labour get in? I thought the pundits all agreed that a snowflake stood a better chance in hell than Labour had of winning a general election with Corbyn as leader?

Apparently the LibDems and UKIP, as well as the Tories, were going to rake in the Labour votes because of Corbyn.

You mean that Labour stands a chance? They were wrong about Corbyn? Does that mean that other things said about Corbyn might also be wrong?

Or should we carry on believing what we're told?

why don't they change their tactics?

There is only a handful of Labour people prepared to go with the "working for peace" narrative so they can't put more than two or three up for interview

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40105324 ]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40105324[/url]

So Corbyn calling May's bluff. He will appear on the TV debate.

Some common sense at last.

So Corbyn calling May's bluff. He will appear on the TV debate.

Seems like a master stroke - he has been consistently more appealing than her on TV (not hard, I know), and now he gets to underline that, while avoiding having some duffer make a mess of the Labour part of the debate.

Be very hard for the PM to not appear now....

But then that would be another u-turn.

[quote=airtragic ]Be very hard for the PM to not appear now....

Vote loser if she does at this stage. She's simply terrible live without her braying mob behind her.

I especially love her "bulldog licking pish off a nettle" face that she pulls whenever anyone criticises her or asks a difficult question.

Good call by Corbyn - I think. The danger he faces is in looking incapable if he can't defend his policies when they're attacked by the leaders of the smaller parties. Whilst they'll also attack the Tories policies (and I'm not expecting Ms Rudd to do any better job than the Maybot of defending them) May personally avoids any fallout from that.

I think on the whole it should be a win for him - but more importantly it's a gamble he has to take. If he does badly and loses the election as a result, well he was always supposed to lose the election anyway. If it goes well for him then it could just be enough to tip things (at least far enough that the Tories don't get a majority - that counts as a win I think).

There's no chance she'll appear. She clearly despises the great unwashed and will do pretty much anything to avoid any direct contact with them. As Rod Liddle put it the other day.
[i]
"Theresa May has the warmth, wit and oratorical ability of a fridge-freezer."[/i]

Be very hard for the PM to not appear now....

No they need to put up Priti Patel, she can ask why "only labour can unlock her talent"

[quote=BoardinBob ]Vote loser if she does at this stage. She's simply terrible live without her braying mob behind her.

Indeed - it's now a lose, lose situation for her. Which makes me wonder whether this is a masterstroke from Corbyn, and in fact one he has planned for a long time - I can't see anything he had to gain from announcing earlier that he was taking part.

[quote=aracer ]BoardinBob  » Vote loser if she does at this stage. She's simply terrible live without her braying mob behind her.
Indeed - it's now a lose, lose situation for her. Which makes me wonder whether this is a masterstroke from Corbyn, and in fact one he has planned for a long time - I can't see anything he had to gain from announcing earlier that he was taking part.

100%

Strong and stable, but not strong enough to appear on the debate!

Yep great move by Corbyn, all I hear people saying in the office after seeing him on tv is he was much better than they expected and not like the media make him out to be

The danger he faces is in looking incapable if he can't defend his policies when they're attacked by the leaders of the smaller parties.

The minor parties are getting squeezed, the "progressive alliance" bollox is reducing them to cheerleaders just as the greens are in Holyrood. They have to create some degree of separation or face irrelevance

As Rod Liddle put it the other day.

"Theresa May has the warmth, wit and oratorical ability of a fridge-freezer."

Rod Liddle is a prize clown, but on this occasion I agree with him.

This appears to be a succinct summary of a key issue

From Corbyn to McDonnell to Ken Livingstone, they all justify it these days by saying it was OK because it led eventually to the peace process. But that’s disingenuous in the extreme. When they were out defending the IRA, its fellow travellers also didn’t know when, or if, that campaign would end. They still happily supported, or had an ambivalent attitude towards, Republican violence. They knew exactly what they were doing, and how their solidarity was used by the Republican movement to paint its murder campaign as part of some wider struggle for social justice.”

Big n daft, do you hold May to the same level of scrutiny for supporting state sponsors of terrorism such as Saudi?

of a key issue

Serious question: Is it really key? Really? Why?

We could easily increase corporation tax by a couple of points and still be a more attractive country to do business in than almost all on that list

Aye - as a small company I'm happy to take the 26% hit to make things better.

As Danny DeVito said recently - "Why don't you guys want to pay your tax?"

it's now a lose, lose situation for her.

There's simply no point going to a TV debate and trying to compete against 6 other parties screaming 'spend, spend, spend' as loud as they can. Spending is always appealing.

Her job was really always say nothing, do nothing and wait for JC to screw up. However that's not really worked out on 2 fronts, as she decided to give pensioners a kicking, and JC has come up with a fairly radical/exciting manifesto to capture peoples imaginations.

As Danny DeVito said recently - "Why don't you guys want to pay your tax?

https://order-order.com/2015/07/23/douglas-carswell-v-owen-jones/

I think on the whole it should be a win for him - but more importantly it's a gamble he has to take. If he does badly and loses the election as a result, well he was always supposed to lose the election anyway.

Big n daft, do you hold May to the same level of scrutiny for supporting state sponsors of terrorism such as Saudi?

It's on the glum-bucket thread, don't cross the streams

suckerpunch from Corbyn
(assuming he gets doesnt fluff his numbers again!)

Its pretty embarrassing that our PM is so poor at interacting/communicating/negotiating that she is too scared to do unscripted debates

that weird gollum-gulp thing she did on the last one was amusing

Ill bet the tories were wishing theyd picked anyone but her right now

Ill bet the Tories were wishing they'd picked anyone but her right now

You saw the rest of the contenders, right?

I think what the powers that be obviously knew from the off was that every unscripted second of exposure was a disaster waiting to happen. What they didn't reckon on was the opposite being true for Corbyn

What are the odds on a new PM ?

big_n_daft - Member

This appears to be a succinct summary of a key issue

I always get a warm glow of smug reassurance when right-wingers use the "friend of terrorists" card, it always proves that they are panicking.

It's resurfaced again recently as the Tory campaign started to unravelled and go pear-shaped.

The beauty of it is that there is no evidence that it works, in fact there's some evidence that it might be counter-productive. Still I guess that when you're panicking anything is worth a try.

The friend of terrorists card was used extensively by right-wingers in the US against Barack Obama, Sarah Palin in particular made a great issue of Obama "palling around with terrorists. It didn't stop Obama winning 2 US presidential elections.

More recently a few months ago here in the UK the Tories panicked in the London mayoral elections and accused Sadiq Khan of being a friend of terrorists, it didn't stop Khan from easily winning the London mayoral election.

[url= http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/662747/PMQs-David-Cameron-Sadiq-Khan-Labour-Mayor-of-London-extremist-Suliman-Ghani-ISIS ]PM sparks row with attack on Labour mayor candidate's links to 'man who supports ISIS'[/url]

more weak and wobbly, not prepared to defend her own policies and it's hardly a stella line up shes up against. She really isn't a people person is she.

Yet somehow despite being abysmal at thinking on her feet or performing in challenging situations, she manages to sell to the masses that she is the safe pair of hands for doing negotiations and they buy it

As Danny DeVito said recently - "Why don't you guys want to pay your tax?
https://order-order.com/2015/07/23/douglas-carswell-v-owen-jones

Seen it.

It's got to be a consensus.