Jeremy Corbyn

Double post

Labour was on the losing Brexit side.

The failure was Cameron's.

They lost 11 seats 6 years into an unpopular government!

They won 1,326. You are using stats which have no meaningful value, losing 11 seats doesn't even prove a loss of support, it only proves that 11 seats were lost.

There are no percentage results which can compare like for like. Where there is, such as the mayoral results, it actually shows a significant increase in support for Labour.

[i]Looking at the number of council seats won or lost alone it will be impossible to say. Having analysed the data on seats won or lost at local elections, and general election performance since the 1970s, Fisher said: “There is absolutely no discernible, sensible correlation there.”

Tony Blair scored the record number of Labour gains, with 1,807 in 1995, but his 1996 tally of 468 gains – just a year before he stormed into Downing Street – was easily eclipsed by Michael Foot’s 988 gains in 1981, Neil Kinnock’s 584 in 1991 and the 800-plus gains for Miliband in both 2011 and 2012. “Big gains in local elections are no guarantee of future success,” says Fisher.[/i]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/01/local-elections-2016-how-judge-labour-result-jeremy-corbyn

Massive gains may merely reflect poor previous performance whilst poor gains may simply reflect very good previous performance - obvious I would have thought.

I reckon the fact that the plotters were unable to move against the Corbyn after the local elections, something which had been widely predicted, proves that they were not the disaster that some had hoped they would be. And yes big n daft, I'm including Tony Blair in that comment, I'm such a commie, as you point out.

Now I'm not going to claim that the local elections were a stunning victory for Labour, that would be as ridiculous as your claim that they represented some sort of electoral disaster for Labour.

The article that I link to above says whilst it is impossible make a "sensible correlation" the best guess is that reflected in a general election it would give the Tories a 1% lead.

Obviously this isn't enough. However people don't always vote exactly the same in a general election, or even from one day to the next, 1% is well within the margin of error, ie, it could easily be a 1% in Labour's favour.

Furthermore there is still another 4 years before the next general election and support for Labour has been increasing in the last year. Well at least it had been until 80% of the PLP decided to sabotage the party by throwing their toys out of the pram screaming. All the opinion polls after Corbyn was first elected gave the Tories a big lead, that had disappeared in just a few months.

Btw I have no idea why you you keep referring to "6 years into an unpopular government". First of all this government is just over a year old, the previous government was a coalition government. And secondly there isn't much proof that it is particularly unpopular, are you suggesting that Cameron was a particularly unpopular Prime Minister?

I would like a new Ducati but not enough to work another 20 hours a week to get one FFS

WTF!? Who said anything about toys and status symbols..?? I'm not a ****ing 12 year old boy, I've two kids and wouldn't mind a little home one day, a council house would be alright if they still existed

Ok.. I started off thinking that I should listen to your wise words seeing as you rate yourself as a bit of veteran of the grass roots movement, but I'm beginning to wonder if you took one two many smacks over the head on the picket lines..

So we can't hope for a job that will give us enough to support our family? Whilst some folk are earning £600 per hour conducting spurious white collar activities?

Stick it up your arse then..
You wanna raise your expectations pal

[b]"They did clean up in the local elections."

"I'm not going to claim that the local elections were a stunning victory for Labour"[/b]

I think you've conceded the point.

🙂

Stick it up your arse then..
You wanna raise your expectations pal

Only after he's checked his privilege.

outofbreath - Member

"They did clean up in the local elections."

"I'm not going to claim that the local elections were a stunning victory for Labour"

I think you've conceded the point.

[i][b]clean up
phrasal verb of clean
informal

1.
make a substantial gain or profit.[/i][/b]

Labour won 1,326 council seats to the Tories 842 seats and all four mayoral contests.

I would call that substantial but I'm not going to claim that it was a "stunning victory", that would just be silly. As silly in fact as your suggestion that it was some sort of disaster for Labour.

But anyway if the only comment you have to make in response to my rather long and rambling post is my definition of "clean up" and "stunning victory", then that's reassuring.

And I'm more than happy to withdraw my comment that they "cleaned up", they just did a helluva a lot better than the Tories and didn't clean up at all.

"But anyway if the only comment you have to make in response to my rather long and rambling post is my definition of "clean up" and "stunning victory", then that's reassuring."

No need. You've finally admitted it wasn't a stunning victory. I see no need to go into the detail of why it wasn't.

Come on OOB, it was predicted to be a disaster for Corbyn probably the end for him. It wasn't, in fact it was a decent result for Labour/Corbyn. In fact media people were shocked/disappointed* how well Labour did.

*I got the impression they wanted Corbyn to fail in order to have a story.

My "Ducati" point is if you want something badly enough you will at least attempt to work for it. I left school with one O level and then did a further 11 years of part time/day release education to get an Engineering degree most funded out of my back pocket - I have a nice house and a good little business but there have been few holidays and lots of very long days and most of my clothes still come out of a charity shop, the current education system in this country is not perfect but it affords most people the opportunity to progress and then change their lives - it all depends how badly you want that change - it's a positive V negative approach to life.

Funny my youngest son came out of uni with a good degree but could not find a job for that skill so he went to work as a shop assistant fot TKMAXX ended up a team leader in 18 months on £20k just got a new job with a distribution business in he north of england on 24k base + some performance bonus he is 23 years old and is buying his first house (buying new so gets gov help) he has not had a penny from me since he left home at 18 - he has a car motorcycle very expensive MTB all paid for. This is because he "wants" this badly enough to focus on it - oh and I did not "arrange" either job for him and incidentally he is serverley dyslexic - positive mental attitude works ****ing wonders

You've finally admitted it wasn't a stunning victory.

What do you mean I've [i]"finally admitted it wasn't a stunning victory"[/i] ? I never for a moment described it as a stunning victory, where on earth did you get that from ? 🙂

Are confusing me with someone who makes wild extreme and unsubstantiated claims like binners ?

Labour did do a lot better than the Tories though. In fact they easily won the election.

What do you mean I've "finally admitted it wasn't a stunning victory" ?

I mean:

7hrs ago:

They did clean up in the local elections.

3hrs ago:

I'm not going to claim that the local elections were a stunning victory for Labour

This is circular I already spelled it out [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/jeremy-corbyn/page/229#post-7864120 ]here.[/url]

This is circular I already spelled it out here.

Yes, and you're still wrong.

Legal challenge thrown out so Corbyn remains on the ballot

Legal challenge thrown out so Corbyn remains on the ballot

Reading the rules I can't see how you could argue it any other way. It says that challengers require nominations, but it says nothing about the sitting leader needing them.

I can't see how you could argue it any other way

I think you probably don't realise just how the desperate the plotters are. The only realistic way their man can win is if he is the only name on the ballot paper.

Seriously, they are desperate. Dyed in the wool Blairites are throwing their weight behind a man who is calling for a socialist revolution and taxing the rich, that's how desperate they are.

And who could have predicted that a year ago? Apart from those people who can predict the next general election result in 4 years time obviously.

You see, just like we were warned, the establishment and those in power pull together to obstruct Jeremy, because they are afraid of him...

It really is painful, this man is a walking disaster :

[b][i]"I have got members of my own party in Pontypridd who have joined because they think the party is heading in the right direction, and I agree with them"[/i][/b]- Owen Smith on the Jeremy Vine show at lunchtime today.

So he is challenging the leader of the Labour Party because he agrees that the party is heading in the right direction.

FFS someone convince him to withdraw from the ballot, he is going to get annihilated.

I can't believe how many gaffes he can cram in one day, and there's another 2 months to go before the ballot !

Have all these MPs who nominated him (apparently 70% of the PLP) ever actually met Owen Smith and talked to him? Surely not.

From Newsnight. Burnley

Maybe it's all a clever plan by Corbyn to increase membership and cement his leadership 🙂

ernie I think Smith's approach is to say the leftwards move is correct and that he is as radical as Corbyn but a superior leader

Maybe it's all a clever plan by Corbyn to increase membership and cement his leadership

Well the plan might backfire. I'm starting to feel so sorry for Owen that I can see myself voting for him just out of pity.

Damn my charitable bleeding-heart side.

jambalaya - Member

ernie I think Smith's approach is to say the leftwards move is correct and that he is as radical as Corbyn but a superior leader

Yes I get that but his daily gaffes aren't providing a convincing argument.

And why do 70% of the PLP think "the leftwards move is correct" anyway ?

I'm not sure they do, its the "not Jeremy" vote

You mean they're LYING ?!?!

Jamba - that video reinforces my belief that a new UKIP leader could very effectively move the party from the right to reposition themselves on the centre left

^^^ agreed, seen this a bit already with Farage and Front Nationale in France have many left wing policies and have been most successful in traditional working class areas (eg Calais and South around Marseilles).

[img] ?imgmax=800[/img]

So what's this far-right socialism going to be called ?

Neue Arbeit?

Now if I had Jamie's skills I'd photoshop "Kinder Gentler Politics" across the top and Vote Corbyn in the bottom corner.

I'd photoshop "Kinder Gentler Politics" across the top and Vote Corbyn in the bottom corner.

Because you want to make a connection between far-right socialism and Corbyn ?

Socialism without Immigration
Vote UKIP!

* We may also look after the wealthy
** There may be some immigrants
*** Definitions of Socialism may vary

Watching the Newsnight link above lead me to this:

I've not really bought the bullying 'orchestrated by Corbyn' line up until now but the last line of this is a bit chilling.

"Jamba - that video reinforces my belief that a new UKIP leader could very effectively move the party from the right to reposition themselves on the centre left"

Already did. There was the meme going round at the last Election comparing Green and UKIP policies.

ernie_lynch - Member

So what's this far-right socialism going to be called ?

outofbreath - yes indeed, I saw that too.

Kinder gentler to me (Corbyn), deselection and online abuse to you.
Anti racism campaigner and Chairman of Stop the War, a coalition to include Hamas and Hezbollah supporters who wish to completely eradicate the State of Israel.
LGBT campaigner who associates and describes those same people as friends who regularly persecute and even execute homosexuals for crimes of "moral outrage".

"he is going to get annihilated"

He certainly is.

"Seriously, they are desperate."

They certainly are.

"Kinder gentler to me (Corbyn), deselection and online abuse to you.
Anti racism campaigner and Chairman of Stop the War, a coalition to include Hamas and Hezbollah supporters who wish to completely eradicate the State of Israel.
LGBT campaigner who associates and describes those same people as friends who regularly persecute and even execute homosexuals for crimes of "moral outrage"."

Yeah, I've never doubted he keeps pretty unpleasant company and you can see his 10,000 strong force outside NEC meetings so there is a gang of enforcers.

What I doubted was that he was personally orchestrating threats/bullying etc. There seemed no evidence for it and from what I've seen he's personally quite pleasant. That video has changed my mind a bit. He seems to me to be calling for exactly the kind o nastyness the current MPs seem to be suffering from. (I'm sure some of them are overplaying it[1], but even so.)

[1] The office break in accusation was especially farcical - seems pretty obvious someone was just poking his head in to see if she was there.

outofbreath - Member

I've not really bought the bullying 'orchestrated by Corbyn' line up until now but the last line of this is a bit chilling.

Chilling?

[i]"And I think they must expect some discomfort from the rank and file in their constituencies"[/i] is chilling ? Are you being serious ??

This was clearly an angry young man who thought that politicians, especially politicians who purported to leftwing, should be held accountable for what they actually did. I couldn't agree more.

If this comes as a surprise to you then you have no understanding at all to why Corbyn has become so popular, especially among the young and disillusioned, and why he is viewed as such a threat by the political elite.

As David Graeber of the LSE said recently :

[b][i]The real concern is not any justified fear among the Labour establishment of bullying and intimidation – the idea that the weak would bully the strong is absurd. It is that they fear being made truly accountable to those they represent. [/i][/b]

BTW these are the full minutes of the last local Momentum meeting I attended :

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8RjphtUU1BHMDZRSE5XU3p5bDRnWEVCb0lCRnhCVnZheV9v/view?pref=2&pli=1

You will note that the very first item on the agenda is "Code of Conduct". Read the paragraph under it in the agenda.

And it provides a direct link to first to the Momentum code of conduct : http://www.peoplesmomentum.com/ethics

[i]Individuals and groups using the Momentum name and branding must operate according to the following principles at all times:

? As the successor to Jeremy Corbyn's Leadership Campaign, Momentum promotes the values that Jeremy popularised during the campaign, of fair, honest debate focused on policies, not personal attacks or harassment.

? Momentum seeks to build positive relationships with Constituency Labour Parties, trade unions and other Labour movement or campaigning organisations that share its aims and principles.

? Momentum seeks to reach out across the community and encourages the participation of people who may not have been involved in political activities before. Ensuring the safety and self ­expression of everyone is a priority, especially of those who are often marginalised on the basis of their gender, sexuality, ethnicity, race, religion, class, disability and educational or economic status.

? Groups of individuals may form local Momentum Groups to share ideas, organise and participate in activities at their local level, which demonstrate how 'socialist values' and collective effort can make a positive social and/or environmental impact. These groups must be democratic in their nature and be organised around a spirit of collaboration, inclusion and respect.

? Momentum is wholly committed to working for progressive political change through methods which are democratic, inclusive and participatory.[/i]

And it concludes in bold :

[i][b]Failure to abide by this code of ethics may result in suspension or permanent exclusion from Momentum meetings, online groups and/or membership.[/i][/b]

Then it provides a direct link to Corbyn's Code of Conduct :

http://www.jeremyforlabour.com/code_conduct

[i]All Labour Party members and supporters should conduct themselves with a high standard of behaviour. This debate is about politics, not personalities, and personal abuse of any nature will not be accepted.

There should be no personal hostility and nobody should feel intimidated at any time. So no foul or abusive language will be tolerated and all candidates should be listened to with courtesy and respect at hustings, meetings and events.

In particular, there should be no demonstrations or protests targeting any individual candidate or outside any MP’s office or surgery - and no personal heckling of any candidate at any hustings, meeting or event.

There will be no tolerance of abuse on social media. All candidates should ensure that anyone who acts in an abusive way on social media is referred to the Party for investigation.

We celebrate the diversity of our Party as a place where sexist, racist, anti-Semitic, Islamophobic, homophobic, or other discriminatory or offensive abuse, has no place.[/i]

A question our resident momentum expert can answer is

Failure to abide by this code of ethics may result in suspension or permanent exclusion from Momentum meetings, online groups and/or membership.

how many people have been suspended? How many excluded?

Or is it all messaging by our Croydon Communist and fellow travellers

As for the Labour Party under JC

All candidates should ensure that anyone who acts in an abusive way on social media is referred to the Party for investigation.

When does Shami get her peerage?

She's turned it down numerous times. (she said on Newsnight the other night)

She's turned it down numerous times. (she said on Newsnight the other night)

But accepted this time, have they upped the offer or does she need a new day job now she has joined the labour party?

Thanks for posting Momentum Minutes.

How is it known that 25k new members are from SWP etc? Is it from a question on the joining/supporting form?

I might have missed it, but is there equivalent data for (say) Tory Members who have registered as £3/£25/supporters?