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The harsh reality is that the modern NHS costs way more to run than it used to.Personally I think the higher earnings income tax should be increased to 45 or 50%. I would happily pay it.
Exactly. It is not the governments fault that people now live until 80 and need more health care but it is a governments responsibility to address it.
The money needs to come from somewhere and taking from people who earn at least 4 times minimum wage and least 2 times average wage is fair enough.
Didnt Vodaphone avoid corporate tax to the tune of the entire welfare bill?
@ulysee that's a campaigners fantasy number so fhe answer is no. If it was the reality the Tories or 13 years of Blair and Brown woukd have done something about it. I once agin make my same point that STWer are happy to complain about tax avoidance but fall over themselves to use Amazon, Facebook, ebay, online bike sellers etc etc who's very business model is constructed to be a huge tax dodge.
Let's approach this another way.
Instead of name calling, playing the man (Tories) instead of the ball (issues) let those who think there should be another way cone up with a written proposal of what they want to do and a [b]fully costed[/b] plan of how it's going to be paid for. Then that can be put to the population for a vote.
We shall call this document The Labour Party Manifesto and the vote a General Election.
Briefly back on topic, if I may...
Jezza's just launched his 20 point plan!
With 18 points.
*facepalm*
But Blair / Brown Nu Labour were Neoliberals, they supported the casino economics... Why would they clamp down on what they support?
And yeah, ill use some of the less odious of the tax dodgers listed , but not for any financial reasons, ill boycott mainly over worker rights.
So yeah, while there ill take advantage of some, but its no biggie if a tax hike is seen at the price for the end user
jambalaya - Member
Let's approach this another way.
Instead of name calling, playing the man (Tories) instead of the ball (issues)
This whole thread has mostly been about name calling and playing the man.
It's a bit off to apply double standards this late in the game, especially when it's specific policies being debated.
Personally I think the higher earnings income tax should be increased to 45 or 50%. I would happily pay it.
That's sort of the French and German tax bands. They also have VAT on food, full rate VAT on chikdten's clothes and utilities.
Yup DrJ I would support tax increases accross the board. I supported the increase in VAT from 17.5% to 20%
Note a 1% hike in VAT raises £4bn (assumiing there is no megative impact on sales). Eqch year the NHS needs about £6bn just to stand still sonwe coukd put VAT up 1.5% piints pa to oay for that (eg from 20 to 21.5 or from 20 to 27.5 over a parliament) ..... now you see where I am going. Making the numbers work is the tricky part
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/01/labour-unveils-20-point-plan-workers-rights-has-18-promises/ ]If Flashy actually posted a source for this, it would make it much less of a story. Even from the Torygraph.[/url]
Considering the headstart they had, I am curious about where on earth the Conservative plan is.
Perhaps before Marr had the temerity to rise above his station and challenge TM on her apparent strategy of "what she remembered from failing a basic 1/2 day course in NLP", it seemed like a good idea and then our strong and stable leader looked like someone losing at parlour games, so they binned it.
'Strong & stable' and "this is one tax I promise not to meddle with, but consider my silence on the others to be a firm committment to raise other ones. Especially for poor people and working families" maketh not a manifesto. 😕
How about, Jamba, we actually look at the record of the Tory and coalition governments, and judge accordingly?
Casino capitalism, Privatising profit and socialising risk, selling off national assets to friends family and doners,vast transferance of public monies in to private pockets, welfare reforms that kill while costing extra billions to implement, failed IT for the last point costing millions, housing policy thats failing miserably, mass homelessness, food banks, food poverty, criminalising squatting further causing deaths
I could go on all night, but i dont need to, you make it abundantly clear that this a cost worth paying and you support it wholeheartedly.
I used to regularly rip new Labour a new arsehole, But this? it isnt even velvet fascism, its downright evil personified, its brought out the worst among us.
But its also brought out the best among us, to try and oppose you
[url= http://labourlist.org/2017/04/the-20-point-plan-with-which-corbyn-and-mcdonnell-aim-to-end-the-rigged-econom/ ]Let's hope counting isn't important when selling paper clips [/url]
Yup DrJ I would support tax increases accross the board. I supported the increase in VAT from 17.5% to 20%
Haha - too funny - so your "tax increase across the board" is the one that penalises the poor most. Why does that not surprise me?
Yup DrJ I would support tax increases accross the board. I supported the increase in VAT from 17.5% to 20%
Would you support an increase to the upper tax rate to 50% to pay for the NHS?
Didnt Vodaphone avoid corporate tax to the tune of the entire welfare bill?
No, it was more #leftiebollox
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/02/18/once_more_into_the_tax_breach_dear_friends/
My point being in that flippant post, if such tax avoidence chicanery as outlined in your links were to be brought under a semblance of control, the taxation from all multinationals operating in and profiting from the UK would be rather significant, reducing reliance on the magic money tree
No, it was more #leftiebollox
Two opinion pieces by the same right-wing blogger - well that's compelling evidence. 🙄
Troll, troll, trollolol.....
A simple YES / NO question to the Right wingers, are the 61 DWP investigated deaths a price worth paying?
[url= https://speye.wordpress.com/2017/02/04/social-housing-affordability-the-real-housing-crisis/ ]Are 500000 homeless children a price worth paying?[/url]
ninfan - MemberNo, it was more #leftiebollox
Oh, HMRC are lefties?
I thought HMRC was sold off to some American corporation...
So good that ninfan found two opinion pieces by him. (was there really no one else? 🙁 )
Tim Worstall:
one of the global experts on the metal scandium,
Should fit right in here about 10 years ago.
I've also ghosted pieces for several UK politicians in many of the UK papers, including the Daily Sport.
....Actually, Ninfan [i]are you[/i] Tim Worstall? I always imagined you were youger.
VAT is indeed regressive, but haven't the Conservatives committed not to raise it, whilst staying noticeably quiet on income tax and pensions commitments? And don't lower earners pay rather less of that than they used to due to the threshold moving up? I'm all for holding the govt to account on its record, but credit where it's due and all that!
7 years of income stagnation?
Yes, it would be nice if multinationals paid all of their taxes. If it was easy, wouldn't everyone have done it by now? Likewise, if you can just run up as much debt as you want with no consequence, wouldn't everyone be doing it?
Income stagnation is not unique to us either (speaking as a public sector worker!)
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in many of the UK papers, including the Daily Sport.
You're taking the piss now?
Nobody would ever describe the Daily Sport as a paper. It was a softcore grot mag. Nothing else.
Again, regarding proper taxation of multinationals I'll point to the post earlier, regardless of name, we have had since 1979 an ideology of neoliberalism, casino economics.
I'll also just leave this here...
"Yes, it would be nice if multinationals paid all of their taxes. If it was easy, wouldn't everyone have done it by now? Likewise, if you can just run up as much debt as you want with no consequence, wouldn't everyone be doing it?"
This.
Some good jobs in those multinationals for people who have had experience in front line politics.
Some good jobs in those multinationals for people who have had experience in front line politics.
Yup. But many PMs have sever multiple terms So all of them would have been far better off significantly increasing tax revenue.
Plus the detail of these rules are worked out by Civil Servants - who are often in for life.
Yet after decades there are still tax loopholes (if you accept the term loop hole - many just cal it "the rules"). The idea that this is a simple problem and corruption has prevented it being solved seems ludicrous to me. Maybe you can provide a reliable source so I can read up on it for myself.
[url= http://voxpoliticalonline.com/2017/02/25/tory-lies-fuelled-213-per-cent-increase-in-disability-hate-crime-between-2010-and-2015/ ]Tory lies fuelling a 113% rise in dasibility hate crime[/url]
Strong and stable opposition, dont believe the lies that Corbyn is weak an ineffectual
All this, while the Progress movement in his own party had knives in his back.
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Does that smack ineffectual weakness?
And even more deaths at the hand of the Tory party and those who elect them
The Government’s controversial cap on benefits is failing to encourage more people into work and forcing pregnant women to consider terminating their pregnancy, according to evidence published by the Work and Pensions Committee.
http://www.welfareweekly.com/tory-benefit-cap-forcing-women-to-consider-terminating-pregnancies/
ulysse - Member
Strong and stable opposition, dont believe the lies that Corbyn is weak an ineffectual
All this, while the Progress movement in his own party had knives in his back.
for balance Labour can't force the government to u turn or climb down on anything as they have a majority.
Agreed, it was applied pressure not only from the opposition benches, but activists petitioners and public opinion.
But put that alongside Millibands record in opposition, the Conservatives got away with murder.
"Yes, it would be nice if multinationals paid all of their taxes. If it was easy, wouldn't everyone have done it by now? Likewise, if you can just run up as much debt as you want with no consequence, wouldn't everyone be doing it?"
Isn't one of the major issues that HMRC don't have sufficient expertise and free capacity to tackle the task of re-writing the rules, so the bring in external consulants to advise and do it. These are the same consultants who know the rules better then the HMRC and then sell their services advising multi-nationals on how to utilise loop holes. It is a huge conflict of interest but they don't seem to be able to resolve it and their is a huge revolving door of emlpoyees and secondees between the public and private sector that hinders resolving the issue.
Our tax code is not fit for purpose, it's decades behind. Not just us really US has the same problem for example. The internet businesses amd GIG economy are taking the p1ss at a whole new level. The Tories have a consulation going as its quite clear more and more people are quitting paye and going "self employed" - this reduces their tax bill significantly.
We need a wholesale rethink
In other news I see Labour rolled out their big gun today to take the pressure off of Corbyn 🙂
The Diane made Jezza look positively polished
Agreed regarding tax needing a shakeup, possibly an element of land value taxation?
EDIT: I see you said "an element of" I would be happy to look at that but we do already have that in stamp duty, as noted ours at bottom/middle end is mich lower than here in France where it's 2% for new build and 8% for all others with no low rates / zero band like we have in the UK.
@ulysee we have that already via stamp duty which has recently been substantially increased (we now have amongst the highest at the top end combined with some of the lowest at the bottom/middle end). BTW a land value tax would have the effect of putting London rents up very substantially. Also I would imagine that there would be some kind of massive fudge for central London Council flats eg those in Chelsea, Kensington, Pimlico and Westminster otherwise local councils would have a very big bill to pay. If there was a high land value tax I for one would just live somewhere small and cheap - then maybe have a nice holiday place abroad ? I think the biggest impact of a LVT would be to sunstantially reduce property prices accross the board making a very large number of people poorer and thus achieving very little.
As an aside the Swiss (in certain Cantons) have a wealth tax, it is about 0.25% but it's only payable if you don't pay other taxes to that amount.
Unfortunately Abbott dropping the bomb on LBC took the focus off May's woeful efforts on the Sunday politics shows, two steps forward, one step back!
May was excellent on Marr. I don't watch Peston, the best bit of him moving to ITV is I don't have to listen to him.
I think in fairness to STW posters I will not say anything negative about Labour for the rest of the week. Abbott's car crash today has inflicted sufficient damage, humiliation even already.
Just imagine how much fun TeamHurtmore would be having here today !
#PrayforDiane
May was excellent on Marr
Mummmmmmmmmyyyyyyyyy
#jambafact
Aye I can imagine the non-tory voter is basking in the glory of this tory wonderland! 😆jambalaya - Member
Just imagine how much fun TeamHurtmore would be having here today !
Tell the big steak a piss i said to get his arse back! 😆 his ban still running?
if only he had not had so much "fun" at others expense he did not get a ban.Just imagine how much fun TeamHurtmore would be having here today !
Cant believe the Tory political broadcast tonight didn't have a single policy and just spent the time slamming Corbyn as an unsafe pair of hands
Diane Abbott, basically she's stealing a living off the taxpayer right?
Tell the big steak a piss i said to get his arse back
I passed him your regards and he sends his. I have suggested to him to do the opposite
Not everyone loves your leader jambayla. In fact they're even shouting for Corbyn. Who'd have thought eh. 😆
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XhesL_SVoHA
jambalaya - MemberMay was excellent on Marr.
ROFL. She was awful by any measure.
[url= https://policehour.co.uk/2017/05/reforming-police-pay/amp ]And now Donald & Si's mates are relying on food banks[/url]
More and more officers are now approaching their force welfare fund, which is a charity set up to support police officers who are on rock bottom. They cannot afford to pay household bills or buy the basics such as food.
According to some reports, this was an organised group of Socialist Party members. One clip of the same scene from the other angle made it look like about 30 people. They could be wrong, but don't necessarily get sucked into the 'fake news' of social media. I was a victim yesterday when I repeated an internet myth that May's husband was a G4S shareholder.edenvalleyboy - MemberNot everyone loves your leader jambayla. In fact they're even shouting for Corbyn. Who'd have thought eh.
I'm now being extra-careful 🙂
kimbers - MemberUnfortunately Abbott dropping the bomb on LBC took the focus off May's woeful efforts on the Sunday politics shows
Yup- and obviously lots of people working hard to keep spinning that. Thing is, she fumbled a couple of numbers and made an arse of herself... whereas May didn't fumble anything, she said exactly what she meant to say. Labour corrected the figures, the Tories stand by every word.
I think I've just spotted the flaw in the plan to appeal to the people who don't vote... 😀
Seriously, looks like the core vote held up to some extent & "underdog" status will do no harm at all next month. Not quite as bleak as many feared.
"underdog" status will do no harm at all next month.
Sadly, there's a corresponding reverse 'bandwagon' effect in which voters back the party they think is going to win, rather than the one they would support in a closer contest.
Sadly, there's a corresponding reverse 'bandwagon' effect in which voters back the party they think is going to win, rather than the one they would support in a closer contest.
Thanks, to my astonishment, there is:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-rothschild/understanding-how-polls-affect-voters_b_2009034.html
I deffo lean the other way - If I thought a party I wanted to win was a shoe-in I would be far less likely to bother to vote. If I thought a party I wanted to win was strugging (but had a chance) I would be far more likely to vote. I thought that effect that might have explained to some degree Clinton losing to Trump.
Not quite as bleak as many feared.
I'd agree. The tories were always going to mop up the UKIP vote seeing as they've basically become them, but the UKIP collapse is also good for labour. Also it would appear that the libdem revival is not as big a threat to labour as some think it is so I'd say there's a lot to play for. I'm not saying labour could win but if Corbyn sticks to the policies and May continues her soundbite-robot act this supposed landslide may well evaporate.
I'd agree. The tories were always going to mop up the UKIP vote seeing as they've basically become them, but the UKIP collapse is also good for labour.
Half UKIP support was core labour, UKIP dissolution is sending core labour votes to the conservatives
Allegedly the conservatives are complaining JC doesn't get enough airtime as well, MSM twitter accounts compliant about lack of access, where is he today?
Surprised by lib dem performance at these elections.
Diane Abbott quote on how council elections might overstate Labour support:
This is a relatively low turnout type of election. At the general we will have a higher turnout. And I believe that Labour voters will be repelled by Tory triumphalism and the notion of giving Theresa May some kind of blank cheque.
(Re LibDems)Thought they'd do better? Me too. But plenty more results yet.
I will be voting Labour in GE but voted Plaid in the LE. (Labour council leader is a twit)
Where is Mr Corbyn? Is it his day off?
I'd just like to thank all those who voted for Corbyn as leader for the wonderful results we are seeing today.
Without us, this wouldn't have happened.
Where is Mr Corbyn? Is it his day off?
Day off in Leiu after electioneering on Sunday
But don't worry, [u]he'll be back tomarrow[/u]
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cranberry - Member
I'd just like to thank all those who voted for Corbyn as leader for the wonderful results we are seeing today.Without us, this wouldn't have happened.
Im sure your ego will not accept it, but i believe corbs support within labour was enough to see him elected as leader with or without the efforts of any rightwing trolls!
Tory Mayor for Teeside - yep you read that right.
I'd just like to thank all those who voted for Corbyn
Don't worry Kimbers - you get credit where it is due too.
Do you still think that the Conservatives are scared of having to face him as leader ?
dragon - MemberThis is a relatively low turnout type of election. At the general we will have a higher turnout.
She's right, of course- more so for the mayoral elections because nobody gives a shit. So some people are getting very excited about the Tees major being a Tory, but he was elected by a tiny majority in an election with 21% turnout, with 8.2% of all possible votes in the first round and almost exactly 10% in the second- a .25% swing or, because of the small numbers, about a 1% increase in labour turnout would have won the first round.
So they're all interesting but in terms of statistical significance it's all about the nonvoters who will vote in the election, even a couple of per cent rise in turnout throws it all out the window. It definitely gives the tories momentum, though. And possibly gives nonvoters a kick, seeing how small the turnouts and margins are.
The turnout demographics'll be fascinating, traditionally council elections attract an older voter anyway just because they have more invested but who knows what happened this time, these aren't normal elections.
She's right, of course
She is, but Government's generally do better in General Election than Council Elections.
Surprised by lib dem performance at these elections
Yep, thought their more blatant anti-Brexit stance would reap dividends, but apparently not.
Is someone going to nip up to the allotment and let him know the results then?
mefty - MemberShe is, but Government's generally do better in General Election than Council Elections.
Aye, absolutely- normally you'd expect Labour to show strongly. But these aren't normal elections so I'm not sure how much the normal logic will apply.
OTOH the facts of that probably aren't all that important, the big impact of this is going to be the perception and that's all going one way. Sticking with Tees, statistically it's absolutely meaningless, but a win's a win and numbers are soon forgotten- that'll be a spectacular victory, not a fractional win in a vote for who cares.
(actually, it's a lovely set of numbers... Of the potential second preference votes less than 3/4s were for the runoff candidates (I don't know if they do breakdowns of all second preferences, but I doubt the others were UKIP people voting Lib Dem and vice versa so it seems fair to assume that the deficit is from people who didn't cast a second preference.
The casting votes were essentally 1500 second preference votes out of 22000, and if my assumption is right then there were about another 7000 unused 2nd votes. Talk about unexercised power.
footflaps - MemberYep, thought their more blatant anti-Brexit stance would reap dividends, but apparently not.
Again, hard to know what effect that has on local elections. It could well be that the sort of voter that'd be strongly led to vote by an anti-brexit stance, won't do it in council elections where it means nothing. Or perhaps not. It does look like the Tories move to make the council elections in Scotland about independence might have paid off...
Just saw John McDonnell(SP) on BBC News, he's a superb performer, every time.
I really feel for him, every time anyone else faces the media they * it up, he can't trust any of them not to create a media * storm. He's also got to come up with economic policy.
...and he's had a heart attack.
Must be very frustrating for him.
In other news Farron's really impressive too with his performance today. He said exactly the right thing with exactly the right tone. Every time he's got himself in the news this week he's come across really well AFAIC.
On the news Jezza has described the results as 'disappointing', with all the conviction of a man who's commenting on his broad beans being slightly under par
Yep, thought their more blatant anti-Brexit stance would reap dividends, but apparently not.
That's not a vote winning strategy is it. Tory remainers aren't going to vote Lib Dem in sufficient numbers. Labour Remainers ditto. Everyone knows the Lib Dems have ZERO chance of forming a government so there will be no second Referendum
Read a rumour that Labour will support Proportional Representayion in their manifesto on May 15th. That could really backfire, its like they have given up on ever forming a majority Government.
Sadly, there's a corresponding reverse 'bandwagon' effect in which voters back the party they think is going to win, rather than the one they would support in a closer contest
Surely this is not a surprise if you consider how many "fans" teams like say Manchester United or Real Madrid have among people who can't find Manchester or Real on a map?
He's also been in Liverpool congratulating Corbynista Steve Rotherham on his Mayoral election victory in Liverpool.
Apparently Andy Burnhams team let it be known that they wouldn't be offended if he didn't feel it necessary to pop over to Manchester while he was up north
Congratulations and best of luck to Andy Burham. (edit: binners 🙂 )