Jeremy Corbyn

I've been staggered by his utter political cluelessness. He is hopelessly ill-qualified for the role he's presently in

he has retreated into this paranoid delusional

what it certainly isn't is a party thats even capable of providing an opposition, never mind form a government.

i don't know where they answer lies. But it certainly isn't here. Thats for sure.

I tend to agree but the real issue is the PLP think they can ignore the members

It depends on whether you regard the new 'members' as something as innocent as that title suggests, or whether they are effectively a guerrilla insurgency? If its the former, then fine. its not though, is it?

it depends on whether you ignore the fact that he won the vote without the new members and you want to overstate their importance to draw similarities to militants of the 80's.

FWIW i know two mates who joined in the this one just to vote against Corbyn. Both are sympathetic to him and his views but feel as you do.

Still not sure which way I will go as I have despised what the PLP have done but its seems inevitable , given how they will act, that he can unite them and win.

I dont want to really vote for either tbh 😥

One group is going to have to leave and set up afresh - the only question is who gets the party machinery and the [s]money[/s] debt. If the PLP rebels can leave, get some funding arranged, they must be tempted to just consign Jeremy's loyal MPs to the minor placings in the Commons.

If they stop dithering and get on with it, in theory they've got nearly four years as the official opposition to get some backers and organise before putting their new party in front of the electorate.

When they refuse to be led by the elected leader and openly revolt against him

Of course The Messiah would never have revolted against a party leader, would he. Defied the party line? Oh. Actually....

I don't discuss the labour party with [s]tories [/s][b]people who have a vote in the forthcoming leadership election,[/b] [b]as Corbyn and Momentum, [/b] [s]they [/s]dont actually GAS and have a bigger agenda than the PLP

FIFY

[url= http://www.thecanary.co/2016/07/14/working-class-britain-is-taking-its-power-back-and-the-establishment-is-freaking-out/ ]http://www.thecanary.co/2016/07/14/working-class-britain-is-taking-its-power-back-and-the-establishment-is-freaking-out/[/url]

Sorry Yunki, but I always struggle with the Canary and the Daily Mash. Apparently one of them isn't satire?

Momentum have 8000 members the Labour party has 500000 voters I assume this sort of complicated maths is within your grasp as to work out "control".

Momentum cannot do anything without the rest of the Labour family

Incredible restaurants serving cuisine from around the world, neighbours and friends who grew up in other countries and found a new home here, thriving arts and culture, the sons and daughters of manual workers going to work in a suit rather than overalls, access to university being commonplace and expected.

Sounds good. More, please.

waaah.... I feel bullied by Binners 🙁

Shut it Yunki!

[img] [/img]

it depends on whether you ignore the fact that he won the vote without the new members and you want to overstate their importance to draw similarities to militants of the 80's.

Yes, you keep going on about the importance of his popularity amongst members

Can you imagine if the Tory party were stupid enough to trust their members with a choice like that?

[img] [/img]

So do we live in Tory England, SNP Scotland or Welsh Labour land as that's the foreseeable future. We can all argue the toss over Corbyn V the PLP but as Binners and many others have pointed out unless someone comes up with a broadly electable labour "type" party this whole thread is pointless bollocks - all the working class/benefits folk whose brexit vote has compounded this miserable situation need to sit in the naughty (thinking) step, this is all an unmitigated disaster- has anyone ever seen a first world country vote it self into a situation like this?

Labour members were given the choice of 4 candidates. Corbyn was the best choice.

And interesting about momentum numbers.

binners - Member

Oh... and please spare us the local parish council election results as the proof otherwise? Its literally like quoting tractor production figures comrade.

I haven't got a clue what you are talking about although I guess there's a possibility that you might. What "local parish council election results" ?

BTW as a Corbyn supporter you think that I am a, quote, [i]"nasty, self-absorbed, leftie"[/i] and now, apparently, [i]"genuinely sinister"[/i] with a [i]"narrow left-wing mindset".[/i]......you're a right little charmer towards people that you don't agree with politically, aren't you ?

I didn't vote for Corbyn.

So you lied then - all that stuff about intending to vote for Corbyn and cancelling your Guardian subscription earlier on this thread was just a load of bollocks. Well that puts some sort of perspective on the motives behind your endless rants on here - you just spout whatever comes into your head at that particular time.

Anyway moving back on topic :

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36877185 ]John McDonnell: Corbyn's critics willing to 'destroy' Labour[/url]

Everyone pretty much agrees that the row orchestrated by the plotters and which is tearing the party apart is doing enormous damage to Labour. It's hard to imagine how it couldn't.

And I can almost accept the argument "Well yes, but getting hid of Corbyn will be good for the Labour Party so the short term damage justifies the ends", if you believe that.

However it is now universally accepted, even by binners, that Corbyn will win the next leadership contest - the entire attempted coup was based on the premise that if they bullied and intimidated Corbyn enough he would eventually be forced to resign. They knew from the onset that if he remained leader and was on the ballot paper that he would win.

So now that it has become clear that Owen Smith won't replace Corbyn you could be forgiven for thinking that for the sake of the party the plotters would ease off on their attacks against him and reduce any further damage.

But instead, despite knowing that he will still be leader after the next ballot, they have actually intensified their attacks on Corbyn, with obviously no regards for the damage they are continuing to cause to Labour.

I think we can probably assume that they now realise that their days are numbered - the Blairites/New Labour/political careerists will not regain control of the party. So they now appear intent on inflicting as much damage as possible on Labour before they either retire from politics or form their own separate party.

EDIT : It should perhaps be pointed that the above critique doesn't of course apply to all Labour MPs. Among all the self-serving careerists, which Tony Blair epitomizes so well, there has [i]always[/i] been genuinely committed MPs. I personally would never have put the figure as high as 20% but that does appear to be the case at the present.

Ernie would you not agree that Corbyn's Labour isn't really the Blairite labour that people associate with the Labour Party. Nothing wrong with that in itself, but if the Party must split because there are two different factions then at least people will know who and what they are voting for and what the values are. It's then up to each Party to get its message across and garner enough support for a majority. You never know they could form a coalition government and share power! There's a thought.

These self serving careerists have no place in a socialist party, that they hijacked it years ago and have been loyally ensuring that it is a softer version of the tories and now we have a chance of restoring the labour party to its original roots --
Sure they all running scared of Mr Unelectable , but its what he represents that scares them --people engaging with an alternative to the corporate agenda-- many hundreds of thousands who are just the tip of the iceberg that will sink the bad ship austerity .
Like many others i havent bought print media for years and avoid television as its just so biased -- radio has one or two honorable exceptions but as someone said --things arent getting worse , they are just more obvious.
I'm certain that those 170 odd so called labour members who are unhappy with the agenda set by the membership can be replaced by willing and enthusistic people who are--they were mostly planted by blair and his regime and like him their days are over .

Havent read all the comments on this thread , but for some info i have been elected to my county council with 65% of the vote ......interesting times

So, it seems that matters are swiftly coming to a conclusion, which suggests the only possible option is for a split, with a new party being created. What's it going to be called....any ideas?

Social Democrats? Might have been used before
BWP - Blair Witch Party

Havent read all the comments on this thread , but for some info i have been elected to my county council with 65% of the vote ......interesting times

Where?

And what is your answer to dog fouling in public places 😉

Gwynedd Council as an independent.

Like a phoenix from the ashes the ghost of Paddy Ashdown - anything is possible after all George Freeman is Theresa Mays Policy Guru - try researching that fella

The Islington Popular Front IPF it's got a ring to it

There is a good tradition of independent liberal representation at Council level in Wales, or in Mid / North Wales.

Gwynedd Council as an independent.

They look like they ride a bike as much as I do.....

Corbyn is seen as pretty toxic in Wales which is why he was asked to keep away from the Assembly elections and why, all being well, Welsh labour will go its own way very shortly.

And the dog fouling policy is far better than my councils

https://www.gwynedd.llyw.cymru/en/Residents/Dogs-and-environmental-health/Dogs/Dog-control-orders.aspx

Dogs will be banned from:
land within the boundaries of schools, further and higher education establishments
children’s playing fields
recreational land
designated zones on specific beaches from 1 April to 30 September - view list and maps of beaches.
Dogs must be put on leads when directed to do so by an authorised officer, if the officer deems the dog to be causing a nuisance or annoyance in outdoor public places.

Corbyn is seen as pretty toxic in Wales which is why he was asked to keep away from the Assembly elections and why, all being well, Welsh labour will go its own way very shortly.

I had a chat with a former labour leader of a major Scottish city and he thinks labour are toast up there, conservatives on the up and the SNP going to fall back as their policy failures play out

I'm Welsh/ in Wales and the people I know think Corbyn is alright and Carwyn Jones is a plonker. I think this Corbyn is toxic in Wales/Scotland is bollocks. I'm pretty sure Corbyn would be more acceptable to the Scottish and Welsh than Milliband or any of the other previous leadership candidates.

Well Momentum sounds like something an Apprentice candidates would come up with as a team name if Suralan had said 'right... Today you're going to take over a political party, and make no mistake.... one of you will be fired!'

So maybe we should run that one up the flagpole and see who salutes it?

Corbyn is seen as pretty toxic in Wales which is why he was asked to keep away from the Assembly elections and why, all being well, Welsh labour will go its own way very shortly.

Then there's the small issue of Sadiq Khan running his London mayoral election campaign with the slogan 'it's ok. You can vote for me. It's safe, because I'm **** all to do with that leftie headcase'

I'm paraphrasing, but that's a pretty accurate summary. He went and got the biggest barge pole known to man to distance himself from Jezza. Which made the beardy messiah taking credit for it in his speech almost as much comedy gold as him demanding loyalty from his backbenchers, or standing up as the leader of the Labour Party to disagree with the labour parties official policy on unilateral nuclear disarmament.

And as Malcolm Tucker famously said of him and John Macdonnell ... "Laurel and Hardy? Nice of you to join us. Did you get the piano up the stairs ok?

ctk i'm Welsh and in Wales and the sooner the Labour Party in Wales cuts the apron strings with English Labour the better imo - look at the progress of the Wales bill.

The fact that we have a Welsh Gov't and a Scottish Parliament was down to having an electable left of centre UK govt. Its interesting that Momentum haven't pitched up in Wales yet - I wonder why that is.

Inbred456 - Member

Ernie would you not agree that Corbyn's Labour isn't really the Blairite labour that people associate with the Labour Party. Nothing wrong with that in itself, but if the Party must split because there are two different factions then at least people will know who and what they are voting for and what the values are. It's then up to each Party to get its message across and garner enough support for a majority. You never know they could form a coalition government and share power! There's a thought.

But this isn't about policy, the plotters have made that clear.

In contrast the SDP slit in the 80s was all about policy - the Gang of Four made that absolutely clear at the time.

I know I keep repeating it but it is about [i]power.[/i] What the plotters fear is being made truly accountable to those they represent.

At the present politics is divorced from the people, and the plotters want to keep the status quo.

And this isn't unique to the UK it's true of much of Europe and the US. By the US I'm not necessarily thinking of Trump, Bernie Sanders a few years ago would have been dismissed as "unelectable" and yet he came pretty close to winning the Democrat nomination, he was certainly Hilary Clinton's greatest challenger.

The "centre ground" consisting of "electable" politicians no longer has the appeal it once had. Many traditional left parties in Europe moved to the centre ground, which is a fancy term for saying that they lurched to the right, today those parties are discredited in the eyes of their electorates.

In Greece the Panhellenic Socialist Movement once a major party of government is now the 7th party with 4.8% of the vote, the previously "unelectable" Syriza form the government.

In Spain the once mighty Socialist Party is now seriously threaten by the grassroots movement Podemos.

Another left party which lurched to right in a bid to capture the "centre ground" the French socialist party has seen it's support collapse, sadly the main beneficiaries of this appear to be the far-right National front.

Here in the UK after 25 years of existence UKIP have in recent times enjoyed their highest level of support ever. While the LibDems, the party which has always claimed to be a centre party, has seen its electoral support collapse.

What does all this prove? Well that centre parties with "electable" politicians no longer have such an appeal, as people become more and more disillusioned with mainstream politics.

It doesn't necessarily mean that people are turning to the left though, I wish it were the case. But the struggle in the Labour as I've already mentioned isn't about policy, the plotter don't criticise Corbyn over policy. Corbyn has tapped into widespread disillusionment with mainstream politics - many of his supporters are not particularly left-wing.

The plotters don't understand what is happening. That is why they were very happy to see him in the first leadership ballot.

As someone commented (with reference to Bernie Sanders) :

[b][i]"It's hard to report on a peasant revolt from inside the castle" [/b][/i]

Here in the UK after 25 years of existence UKIP have in recent times enjoyed their highest level of support ever. While the LibDems, the party which has always claimed to be a centre party, has seen its electoral support collapse.

What does all this prove? Well that centre parties with "electable" politicians no longer have such an appeal, as people become more and more disillusioned with mainstream politics.

Which has most mp's, the centre party who got 7.9% of the vote, or the non centre party that got 12.6% of the vote

binners - Member

Then there's the small issue of Sadiq Khan running his London mayoral election campaign with the slogan 'it's ok. You can vote for me. It's safe, because I'm **** all to do with that leftie headcase'

And there's the small issue of "that's completely bollocks". Sadiq Khan was extremely happy for Corbyn to stand along side him and help him as he campaigned to be London Mayor.

Here is he is with Corbyn during that campaign :

[img] [/img]

Before he was elected Mayor of London the overwhelming majority Londoners knew absolutely nothing about Sadiq Khan apart from the fact that he was the official Labour candidate.

It is true that [u]after[/u] he was elected Mayor and the plot against Corbyn started brewing Sadiq Khan began making critical comments about Corbyn.

However, and this is extremely significant, when it became apparent that the coup might fail Sadiq Khan fell strangely silent. As far as I am aware Sadiq Khan has not made any critical comments concerning Corbyn for quite a while, despite the fact that the battle to remove Corbyn has intensified dramatically.

Sadiq Khan is a career politician who knows when to put his head above the parapet and when to keep it down.

Right now for obvious reasons he's keeping it well down.

ninfan - Member

Which has most mp's?

Ah right, I must be talking bollocks - UKIP hasn't in the last couple of years enjoyed the most electoral support it has ever had, and the LibDem vote hasn't collapsed 😆

You are priceless ninfan !

itsa complete non sequitur as ll he has proved is that our electoral system is not proportional. Whilst this is true it in no way negates the point.

complete non sequitur as ll he has proved is that our electoral system is not proportional. Whilst this is true it in no way negates the point.

Congratulations

You're finally getting it

You cannot win elections from the wings - UKIP have proved this, despite their huge success, they have still only got one MP - you need to win the centre ground in order to get elected.

now you may not like the system... But it's the system that is in place, and the only way to change it is to go out and win an election.

Go figure.

I know it's always a mistake to attempt to have a sensible debate with you ninfan as silly playground taunts/point scoring and diversionary tactics is all that you are capable of, but I will this time respond to your comment.

No one is talking of 'winning elections from the wings'. The Labour Party is not UKIP, today it is the largest political party in Europe.

And whilst we are talking of UKIP the best way to counter the electoral threat it has started posing in recent times is to offer an alternative to all those people who feel so disillusioned with politics today.

As I have pointed out above public disillusionment with mainstream politics does not automatically translate into support for left-wing radical parties. It has in Greece and in Spain (although Podemos does avoid using the left-wing cliches) but not in France.

It just depends what the available conduit for this disillusionment is, eg, in France it's the National Front.

Here in the UK I would like the conduit to be the Labour Party, obviously. But I can guarantee to you that for UKIP the best possible Labour leader would be a Blairite. A Labour leader disconnected and out of touch with ordinary voters. Under Blair and Brown Labour lost 5 million votes - why?

Go figure, as you say.

EDIT : And while you're figuring that out also try to figure out why today the Labour Party is the largest political party in Europe - has Corbyn got anything to do with it?

Congratulations

You're finally getting it

Still unable to actually discuss the point Junky?

@ Ernie

I know it's always a mistake to attempt to have a sensible debate with you ninfan as silly playground taunts/point scoring and diversionary tactics is all that you are capable of, but I will this time respond to your comment.

No one is talking of 'winning elections from the wings'. The Labour Party is not UKIP, today it is the largest political party in Europe.

Winning from the wings is exactly what you are proposing Corbyn can do, I say that UKIP have proved that it's not possible

Here in the UK I would like the conduit to be the Labour Party, obviously. But I can guarantee to you that for UKIP the best possible Labour leader would be a Blairite. A Labour leader disconnected and out of touch with ordinary voters. Under Blair and Brown Labour lost 5 million votes - why?

The vast majority stayed in bed, but it didn't matter, because they were in safe seats anyway.

It doesn't matter how many votes you win or lose, it matters where you win or lose them.

Tripling, even quadrupling your majories in the heartlands and safe seats cannot win you an election, you need to win the marginals in order to get elected. For all the self congratulatory back slapping about new members and biggest party ever, Corbyn/labour polling in the marginals has fallen through the floor. Until the Labour Party can appeal to the marginals, it's dead.

the marginals

Why do you have to be so realistic?
Why invoke those bland soulless entities?
The defeated and the damned with their dismal lives of drudgery, ponderously falling forward in their meaningless trudge towards the end..
Staggering blindly through their miserable unrewarding existences, mewling piteously and grasping at baubles and toys like fat maggotty infants..

**** them

LOL at ninfan. Yeah UKIP haven't won at all have they? Farage retiring a broken defeated man.