Jeremy Corbyn

We all want effective opposition but an effective opposition to the labour party being shit is not to clutch at straws like this and just shout "he bottled it" and then cite twitter as your proof

Thanks for letting me know you dont care about the fact when forming your opinion....the transformation to right wing nutjob is complete 😉

Ineffective opposition? You mean like Milliband, yeah, with the abstentions, the voting to the Tory line?
Since Corbyn 's tenure, I'd say some of Cameron and May's worst excesses have been well checked.
And I'm no Corbynista, being a paid up Green, before that insult gets bandied about

oldmanmtb - I pretty much agree with every word of that*. Which is also why the Corbyn sects tragic short-sightedness, and blinkered stupidity will never be forgiven, as thy stand idly by, or in fact, actually wave on the transformation of Britian into a neo-liberal, corporatist wet dream, where the working classes are about to be well and truly bent over.

* thats a sentence I never thought I'd type 😯

Ahhh Binners I'm filling up..

Which is also why the Corbyn sects tragic short-sightedness, and blinkered stupidity will never be forgiven

Despite the fact that I agree that Labour/Corbyn's post-referendum stance on brexit is a massive mistake, you really can't blame them for brexit. 2/3rds of labour voters voted remain. Whichever way you look at it, the labour party, and Corbyn, delivered their supporters to the remain cause. If in 5 years or however long we're dishing out blame on who's fault this is when it all comes crashing down, it will lie squarely on the shoulders of May, Farage, Johnson, Gove and all the other nutters, and not Corbyn and John McD. I may have missed it, but I've never heard you criticise the remainer tory MPs on brexit like you do Corbyn et al.

I may have missed it, but I've never heard you criticise the remainer tory MPs on brexit

Surely that's just a given for anyone with anything between their ears. Its all I expect from them. They're Tory's just doing what they do. I generally try to hold the Labour party to a higher standard. Hence my total despair/anger/frustration at the present state of affairs.

And actually I think that given how narrow the 'victory' of the leave campaign was, the fact that Corbyn went AWOL during the campaign, then when asked to endorse the EU said 's'aright I suppose' like a surly teenager, was actually a massive contributory factor in getting us to where we are now. Would the result have been the same if the leader of the Labour Party had actually turned up?

@ Binners, So Corbyn should have stopped Brexit and won over the ex-Labour now Ukip voters?

Corbyn is not bothered if we are in or out ( momentum have a similair view) as he is not interested in being in power so a unencumbered Tory party tearing up all sorts of rights just provides something to shout about. Not sure if it was Marx or Lenin that talked about how much misery is needed to be created to ensure a revolution.

@ Binners, So Corbyn should have stopped Brexit and won over the ex-Labour now Ukip voters?

It should be clear to anyone that a Tory party taking us out of the EU, an d handed a blank sheet of paper to re-write pretty much everything is going to be an absolute unmitigated catastrophe for the working class which the Labour party is supposed to represent (hence 70% of labour voters opting to remain)

Unfortunately Corbyn exists in a state of arrested political development, and his opinions and attitudes were set in stone some point around 1977, hence his inherent hostility to the EU. Its like Thatcherism, and everything since then never happened. It takes a spectacular brand of stupid to think that what's about to happen will be a good thing for the working class, or anything but a disaster compared to what we had.

But then when you're looking for a spectacular brand of stupid, look no further....

[img] [/img]

And actually I think that given how narrow the 'victory' of the leave campaign was, the fact that Corbyn went AWOL during the campaign, then when asked to endorse the EU said 's'aright I suppose' like a surly teenager, was actually a massive contributory factor in getting us to where we are now.

Where we are now is a result of 2 million more people voting to leave rather than remain. I haven't done the maths but even if an extra 10% of labour voters voted to remain I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have changed the result. As a comparison 68% of liberal democrats voted remain. That's only 3% more than labour yet I don't here you chastising Tim Farron for betraying the nation.

the fact that Corbyn went AWOL during the campaign, then when asked to endorse the EU said 's'aright I suppose' like a surly teenager, was actually a massive contributory factor in getting us to where we are now.

TBH had he done this all you would say is - see look he is shit and it is his fault

FWIW i think there is mileage in criticising him re Brexit as he was a very weak yes - i think he did it because he had to as leader and not because he actually believed it hence all his actions since have been to support Brexit- here but you just criticise him whatever he does.

If he started shitting gild bricks you would complain that they were too small, not enough and why did he not do it earlier

You and this thread is like a stuck record

I don't here you chastising Tim Farron for betraying the nation.

Farron was considerably more visable, and vocal than Corbyn before, during and after the referendum. In fact since the referendum he's been pretty much the only politician, other than some cleverer/braver Tory's like Anna Sourby and Nikki Morgan, that has the temerity to point out that the narrative of the Brexiteers is complete lies and fantasy.

Whats that cockwomble done? Said on the day of the result that article 50 should be triggered immediately, then put a 3 line whip in place to force Labour MP's to give Theresa May... as Nichola Sturgeon accurately pointed out... a 'blank cheque' to do what she bloody well likes!

You really couldn't make it up!

He's just sold the working class (who he's meant to represent), not to mention anyone remotely socially liberal, down the river for a 'principle' that was years past its sell-by date by 1882, never mind today. Its tragic!

2/3rds of labour voters voted remain

And two thirds of Labour constituencies voted Leave.

@oldman as I have said before the current and especially new membership have never had it so good as they have come in from the wilderness that is the far left a d have taken over a mainstream party. Thats extra profile, jobs amd ££££. The fact the Pabour Party is further from power now doesn' bother them as personally they have advanced their agenda. They see it as a multi year (decade ?) project possibly looking beyond even the 2025 general election

I imagine Binners will stop accusing the Labour Leadership of running away when they stop actually running away. First QT after the budget with Tories in a bit of bother over NI / small business and Shadow Chancellor is a no show.

[i]Don't you remember? Labour voters don't have cars. [/I]

Just watched the start of QT, and it seems that he gave enough notice that Kezia Dugdale had time to drive down, not that she'd anything to go home for 🙂

QT's not that big a deal (as in I rarely watch it, and then mainly by accident, being almost as averse to the general public as Corbyn). But yeah, it's Sunderland ffs, after a rocky budget and the Shadow Chance is slated to appear. Not one to miss. One tweet and he'd have a fleet of constituency agents in their aged Citroens or whatever ferrying him to the wrong end of the M1. He didn't prioritise it and didn't do it.

If in 5 years or however long we're dishing out blame on who's fault this is when it all comes crashing down, it will lie squarely on the shoulders of May, Farage, Johnson, Gove and all the other nutters, and not Corbyn and John McD.

Anecdotally, I hope I may be detecting growing disillusionment on the part of some corb voters. I've even been told that I was right all along. But that might just have been to make me spit out my pint in astonishment. I've no faith that getting rid of Corbyn will make things much better, but christ it can't make things worse. Cheers...

[img] [/img]

Farron was considerably more visable, and vocal than Corbyn before, during and after the referendum.

And yet he only delivered 3% more of his supporters. So either Tim Farron is a massive failure, or Corbyn's supposed inaction had much less impact than you suggest. Which is it cos I'm confused?

"I've no faith that getting rid of Corbyn will make things much better"

Yup. Labour is tainted. They are vulnerable to the argument Corbyn's tribe are the "true" Labour Party. "Vote David Milliband* get a Marxist". Hard to deny.

I really don't see a way out for Labour.

Mind you before the last election I was certain the Tory party was utterly finished for good and I got that wrong.

*Example hypothetical future sane candidate.

I really don't see a way out for Labour.

It's quite simple really. All the PLP have to do IMO is grant Corbyn/the left the reduction they want in the number of MP nominations needed to get on a leadership ballot. Do this and I'm pretty sure Corbyn will gracefully step aside long before the next election. A new more energetic leader can then be elected, hopefully from an all-female shortlist. By this time brexit will have become the cluster**** everyone expects it to be, the tories will be busy stabbing each other in the back over who's fault it is, and come the election Corbyn will be a distant memory.

"All the PLP have to do IMO is grant Corbyn/the left the reduction they want in the number of MP nominations needed to get on a leadership ballot."

Yes, because making it easier for hopeless leadership candidates to get on the ballot is an ideal solution to the problem of a useless leader.

Yes, because making it easier for hopeless leadership candidates to get on the ballot is an ideal solution to the problem of a useless leader.

It's the only way to heal the divide between the membership and the PLP. It's a democratic party, not an old boys establishment stitch up like the tories. It's also the most effective method of getting rid of Corbyn. He's not going to stand aside unless candidates from the left have a chance of succeeding him.

It was 18 years between a labour government leaving office and winning an election. 1979 to 1997.

It will take as least as long for Labour to recover and that means 11 years from now at best. In reality it will take 3 elections 2020, 2025 so 2030 is the first election they stand a cat in hells chance of winning - 13 years, a total of 20 years out of office

I think Labour only has crap leadership candidates. Corbyn was the best of the 4 put in front of us.

Maybe the others might have played out better? Burnham was collapsing in front of Corbyn's challenge FFS.

I think Labour only has crap leadership candidates. Corbyn was the best of the 4 put in front of us.

And that is still the problem today isn't it. They will just look a bit better now but only because Corbyn is looking worse.

"It's a democratic party, not an old boys establishment stitch up like the tories."

Old boys which include all the female British Prime ministers there have ever been...

"It's a democratic party, not an old boys establishment stitch up like the tories."

Every single political party in the world is looking at the present state of the labour party in, and making sure they never do anything as profoundly stupid as throwing your leadership open to a democratic process involving anyone prepared to stump up a few quid, rocking up and deciding it.

From serious political force, losing an election by the narrowest of margins, to laughably implausible, catastrophically incompetent, totally ineffectual, politically irrelevant placard-wavers in the space of12 months....

As the law of (catastrophic) unintended political consequences go, it wins hands down.

Hurray for democracy!

Yes, because making it easier for hopeless leadership candidates to get on the ballot is an ideal solution to the problem of a useless leader.

🙂

Milliband's "safety check" when handing more power to the members in the Leadership election was to ensure a decent number of MPs supported the candidate. Where Labour fell down is MPs backed his candidacy to "widen the debate" wihoit ever expecting him to win.

@oldman the problem with that scenario is that Labour are in a far worse state now than they ever where in the 1970's. Labour in England is starting to look like Labour in Scotland. There could be no way back.

I'm sure most of you are watching a completely different PMQ'S to the ones I'm seeing?

Isn't there always a lefty candidate on the ballot?

I agree Jamba but traditional labour voters in England don't have an SNP type alternative and most will not vote Tory ukip or lib they will simply abstain. As Blair points out (in a rare moment of clarity) the majority of England has no political representation. So we do end up with a one party state that only collects support from around 25% of the electorate

Me agreeing with you is getting into a worrying habit fella. I know plenty of life-long labour voters who say they can't possibly vote for Corbyn. I think the Lib Dems will pick up a lot of votes in the metropolitan seats who voted heavily to remain, disgusted at Corbyns stance on Brexit, but not enough to win many seats. UKIP won't pick any up, as they're now irrelevant

Most labour voters will just stay at home, like they did in Copeland. With the same result as Copeland. An awful lot of previously rock solid labour seats will turn blue. I honestly believe that labour could be reduced to around 100 seats

The first indication of whats to come will be the local council elections in May. Talking to a couple of our local labour councillors, they're expecting armageddon. I don't think I need to tell you their opinions of the beardy messiah, and his experiment in 6th form politics.

I expect once this electoral decimation occurs, Corbyn and posse will trot out the same lame excuses as Copeland, as they lose masses of local councils to the Tory's, including some that have been labour since the dawn of time

Local council elections are a completely different thing, the way Cliff Morris has been caught carrying on in Bolton, ill be very very surprised if it isn't a Lib dem landslide, despite the fact the the local Westminster representative David Crausby, Labour is one of the good guys

Binners, Corbyn is pretty useless, but you give him too much credit for the demise of labour. It's been a long process started long before him. He's just a symptom.

I'm not denying that. Blair has to shoulder a lot of the blame for hollowing out the party from the inside, and stuffing it full of identikit yes men lobby fodder.

But Corbyn was never going to be the answer. And so it's proved. The labour vote had been in steady decline anyway, but Corbyn has uttered in an exodus. And incredibly he gets progressively worse.

Labour is due to be decimated in May, losing swathes of council seats to a sitting Tory government mid-term. A previously unthinkable proposition, pre-Corbyn.

Expect to hear lots of talk of his mandate as he gets his minions to trot out the same farcical Copeland excuses, while he refuses to change course or resign, and Theresa cracks the champagne open, safe in the knowledge that a huge majority awaits when she names the day

+1 binners

But when I lived in a solid Tory seat I had no real choice other than voting LibDem's or spoiling my paper.

Now I live in Scotland so it's SNP, a LibDem vote will only let the Tory in (Borders).

biggest problem is there's no-one to replace him.

Dunno if you read that article I put up a while ago from tom devine, it was more related to scottish independence, but he made a very good point that essentially there's large swaths of england unrepresented these days and that there must be something that will come and fill that void, he thinks there's nothing surer. How or what I dunno, but it surely has to happen?

I think you're right. This could well be the death throes of the Labour Party. The SNP have shown what happens when a credible alternative is offered to the directionless complacency of Labour. The arguament that it was all about independence is wishful thinking on behalf of a Labour Party in denial. There's far more substance to it than that! And the whole Brexit issue, and the opposite positions the party's have taken will absolutely guarantee those voters will never be coming back to labour. They're gone for good!

If a party with similar middle of the road, more humane, less slavishly neo-liberal, more social democratic policies, with credible MPs, and a competent, charismatic leader stood, then the Scottish result would be replicated right across the 'Labour Heartlands', and the Labour Party would be consigned to a fringe rabble of lefties, heckling ineffectively from the sidelines, while not even bothering to offer up a realistic, credible alternatives. Which in effect, with the present front bench, is what it already is.

As someone living in the North of England, and totally despairing of the Labour Party, and the permanent Tory rule it seems happy to let happen, I'd vote for the SNP tomorrow if I could. And I'm far from alone. Can we not move the border down a bit? 😉

Interesting you say that. As much as i support independence can't really bring myself to vote for the snp! 😆

It annoys me that the snp are basically it up here. I'd like a much more diverse pro indy political landscape. I'm for coalitions rather than single party dominance. I think compromise is healthy.

For a moment, I thought you were talking about voting for the snip Joe!! 😉

😆

You know what I mean though. It's evident from the brexit ref and from the Scottish ref that if you were to ask people what is the essence of democracy, many would say majority rule. Personally I think that misses the point. Compromise is the essence of democracy.
?
Something the tories would do well to understand. Still perplexes me why they won't entertain the idea of scotland in the EU and in the union(particularly when that is going to be the irish solution). Do that and you basically kill off any idea the argument the SNP have of an IS.

Anyhow OT i know. apologies, I'll stop the scottish train of thought here..

Will leave this question open to anyone to bring it back on topic, do you see a viable alternative to the tories forming in England and Wales anytime in the near future, and if so, where's it coming from

No simply down to the fact that the working/middle class do not have a common cause (unlike Scotland with its national identity)

Basically we have nothing to agree on. People like me fundamentally a liberal lefty by nature and a Tory by circumstance of business, home and degree educated kids make up a lot of the electorate.

I clearly understand that Labour will borrow money and give it to people who may or may not deserve it and the Tories who will borrow money and give it to themselves.

I think many people like me have been reasonably successful in life in spite of various governments desire to drive off a cliff (fiscal or otherwise)

I can not vote for Corbyn or May as both these individuals have agendas that will only damage me my business and my kids prospects.

There is no one to vote for for most people at the moment and without a common cause I think we may see a Tory government for the next 30 to 40 years possibly longer.

Oh and when Major and Blair sound like a sensible option you know how deep the shit is.

That's an incredibly disappointing outlook! 🙁

I don't think the poor sods who voted for Brexit have any idea what an un fettered Tory govt will do to them

Grammar schools
Tax haven
Higher personal tax
Reduced employment rights
Reduced benefits
Inflation
Housing shortage (higher rents)
Rising intrest rates
NHS that you pay for

Not a country that's for poor people. As I have said they have no political representation.

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Corbyn, drive ? Shurley shome mishtake ?

More hyperbole. We have a Tory government with a slim majority

Under Cameron defeated three times, not yet under May in HoC

"More hyperbole. We have a Tory government with a slim majority"

This.

When John Major had a similar majority everyone accepted he was pretty much neutered. God knows why the current administration is somehow considered unfettered. They've been cancelling legislation hand over fist.

Because the opposition are utter bawbags.

[I]bawbags[/I]

For those south of the border:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bawbag

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39266992

[i]Labour's Jeremy Corbyn accused the government of being "complacent".[/i]

The complacency is probably unrelated to the opposition compelling their MPs to vote with the Government.

It's as if the most basic, primary school level understanding of cause and effect completely eludes him.

Meanwhile Liam Fox was today talking about the need to 'deregulate the labour market'. What do you think that's going to entail then Jezza?

It'd be funny if it weren't so tragic!

It's as if the most basic, primary school level understanding of cause and effect completely eludes him.

Given the situation complacency of the Govt is deeply embarrassing for him personally and plays into the hands of his critics. How the hell he thinks drawing attention to it is a good idea is beyond me.

Mind you, I don't think the Govt *are* complacent. I think they are terrified. They really have no clue how this is going to turn out and they don't have a big enough majority to force through anything remotely unpopular. Now the headache of keeping Scotland on board comes along.

I can't think of a worst time in the modern era to be PM apart from the weeks after the Argentine invasion of the Falklands which by all accounts had a similar "Oh *, what the *ing **** are we going to do." air of panic about it.

Corbyn - more brilliance, his definition of success when discussion the second Indy Referendum 🙂

But a source close to Jeremy Corbyn said: “We’ve said in the past that was a failure, which is why we had our own campaign during the EU referendum.

Indy Ref Labour won
EU Ref Labour lost

"EU Ref Labour lost"

Well they won in the sense that they got what they wanted...

🙂 the leader anyway

It happens to me too. I go into a meeting thinking "Don't say Chaos, don't say Chaos." ...and then I blurt out "Chaos". (Or whatever the word I need to avoid is.)

...JC is well on the way to becoming May's straight man. Cannon, to May's Ball. Earnie to May's Eric. Sets up the lines week after week.

I believe it was another masterful performance at PMQ's. The government faced a rebellion over its proposed raises to NI contributions to the people deemed to be their natural core support, forcing it into a U Turn

Jeremy completely omitted to even mention it, and just chuntered on to himself, aimlessly instead.

Brilliant!

Once again faced with an open goal, he spoons it into row Z.

Eh - did you watch last week's or something Binners?
It was a bit weird for him to ask what the hole in the budget would be filled by, but he definitely pushed it. He asked for an apology from the PM for all the stress and chaos caused for people who would have been effected over the last week.

He did mention it watching it now, weak is barely suffiecient enough to describe it... the man has no authority what so ever.

[I]the man has no authority what so ever. [/I]

Reminds me of one of my uncles. He could be sat in the corner of your room right now, not that you'd know it.

Alex - stress for those affected ? It only affected those on over £40k pa (some commentators said £60k), the changes where small (frankly tiny) and there where phased in. Being self employed is a massive tax dodge opportunity, tax free dividends, sharing income between "employees", deferring income/tax, loans with minimal benefit in kind taxation. As Hammond's letter says self employed are paying £5bn pa less in tax/ni than equivalent employees and this will rise to £6bn pa by 2020. The Govt is conducting an invstigation into the impact but the conclusion is obvious. I openly posted on here a while ago that I am focused on non PAYE work as it's so beneficial tax wise.

I assume Jamba that you are not self employed or running a small limited company
?

Ironic that the Tories (a) screwed up and (b) get flak for introducing a progressive tax change. Its an amusingly ironic world that we live in, ful of wonderful contradiction.

I know nothing about rhe Dutch Labour party - if it is similar to our version - but their failure yesterday makes Jezza look quite good. 😉

Being self employed is a massive tax dodge opportunity, tax free dividends, sharing income between "employees", deferring income/tax, loans with minimal benefit in kind taxation

You are absolutely confusing being self-employed up with running a company. One is employed and pays NIC, PAYE, CT, Dividend Tax the other pays income tax and NIC.

Either position can be abused. But do no conflate the two.

Do you understand how the loans system works?

Dodging tax is generally the preserve of high earners no matter the state of employment . As long as you can avoid a tax scheme you can pay a specialist to perform all sorts of magic. It's not the preserve of the self employed.

We went through a major VAT inspection a few years ago. They almost tore my company apart to find they owed ME £140.

Did I mention we pass on VAT too?

I've been both self employed and in a company structure and neither saves me much tax.

jamba - you seem to be confusing JC's comments with my own.
I put my comments in the appropriate thread.

We went through a major VAT inspection a few years ago. They almost tore my company apart to find they owed ME £140.

Had similar when I was a contractor. They found a payment of £23 into my account that I couldn't explain. All other payments being regular, and in the thousands.

"You owe us the VAT on that" the inspector said with a sense of smugness.

Then I found an old VAT rebate notification. £23.

🙂

"Ironic that the Tories (a) screwed up and (b) get flak for introducing a progressive tax change. Its an amusingly ironic world that we live in, ful of wonderful contradiction."

I do love seeing Labour arguing against a Tax rise and simultaneously asking where the shortfall is coming from in an overspend.

Reminds me of China telling the USA off for spending too much on welfare!

Alex, understood

@rone, the NIC change impacted those earning £40k (or £60k depending on source) - high earners ? I forget the avg impact £240pa wasn't it ?

Self employed / small limited company tne two go together imo

As someone who has a good well paid job under PAYE I can say there are pretty much zero "tax dodge's" available. We have got to the point where saving for retirement starts being called a tax dodge while those on defined benefots schemes like Surgeons and MPs attract zero critism.

jamba, can you tell me how I can get some of those "tax free dividends" ?

Being a ltd company owner, I'm all ears. The only dividends I can currently access are after corporation tax of 20% has been paid and then I can access up to £5k (coming down to £2k following the budget) without paying additional tax. Otherwise it's an additional 7.5% tax up to the higher rate threshold, then it jumps up to 32.5%.

Self employed / small limited company tne two go together imo

Rubbish. That's such a generalisation as to not make any sense if you're trying to objectively analyse tax status.

As someone who has a good well paid job under PAYE I can say there are pretty much zero "tax dodge's" available

That's because you have not employed the services of a creative accountant.

You absolutely can.

Being a ltd company owner, I'm all ears. The only dividends I can currently access are after corporation tax of 20% has been paid and then I can access up to £5k (coming down to £2k following the budget) without paying additional tax.

Absolutely.

Two of us: We pay 20% Corp, then a bit of PAYE/NIC and then tax on dividends.

We've been taxed at 3 different points.

@rone, the NIC change impacted those earning £40k (or £60k depending on source) - high earners ? I forget the avg impact £240pa wasn't it ?

I didn't mentioned anything about the NIC U-turn / rise. I was saying that high-earners in general can make the best use of creative accountancy because the fees/commission are so high to do it you have to be making it worth your while.

Besides the 'mean-old' Tories can't surely justify the NIC rise and the Corporation tax reduction? I mean what signal does that send out.

Idiots.

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/profile/nickcohen ]A perfect summary of the disaster that is Corbyn, in an open letter to the idiots who've kept him there, by Nick Cohen[/url]

It's kicking off

Tom Watson? @tom_watson the twitter war is on against Jon Lansman

Is blaming labour party members who voted for Corbyn now the agreed line? Are they going to extend this logic to the nation at large? It's all the fault of those bloody voters isn't it! It's highly ironic that Cohen quotes a labour MP that Corbyn is undermining democracy when this line of argument has the implicit implication that voters shouldn't be allowed a choice. If he and his ilk really believe that the people who voted for Corbyn did so because they thought it would usher in a 20th century style socialist revolution then getting rid of Corbyn will make no difference.

It's all academic. This ineffective moron needs to be gone! And he needs to be gone now! Because the stakes are so high, and it's an insult to the electorate for him to even use the title 'leader of the opposition'.

It's a testament to how detatched from reality him and his sixth form followers are from reality that they've got the front to continue with their pathetic, totally ineffective lefty project! Self-indulgence at its most extreme. But then they won't be the ones paying the price as this catastrophe unfolds, will they?

Don't disagree that he needs to go. But not learning the lessons of why he was elected in the first place will result in the same thing as it did before - defeat. Without wanting to go over old ground, you need to see beyond Corbyn. What labour members expect is not a hard-left marxist revolution, but a leadership which listens to them and a government which represents them. If you believe Cohen instead they're going to get a leadership which blames the membership for whatever failings may occur in future.