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In other good news for Labour the Tories are going to give UKIP a pretty clear run at Labour in the Stoke by-election by focusing on Copeland. Clearly a degree of smugness from me as when I posted of a UKIP threat to Labour in the North a few years back I was ridiculed here. Tories so confident they are not challenging in a winable seat. Strategic move threatens Labour in other seats the Tories can't win, let UKIP take Labour down there.
TBH I think that is pretty pathetic by the Tories. The main 3 parties should be fighting ever seat on mainland UK.
In other good news for Labour the Tories are going to give UKIP a pretty clear run at Labour in the Stoke by-election by focusing on Copeland
Makes sense - no point having two nutjobs run for the same seat.
DrJ see my post above re the sources, mostly direct from the man's mouth. Feel free to give me your interpretation of my list.
My interpretation of your list is that it's #alternativefacts that have already been shown to be falsehoods a million times. Period.
It's impossible to control immigration being in the EU, so it's been going very badly. Tories proved you can't control immigration inside the EU and then we voted Leave.
I see. How has the reduction of non-EU immigration been going? Figures plummeting, I suppose?
TBH I think that is pretty pathetic by the Tories. The main 3 parties should be fighting ever seat on mainland UK.
...and in NI, IMHO.
However, I understand why they've done it.
On the most important issues at the moment UKIP and Tory party is pretty much the same. The Hard Brexit just announced by the Maybot comes straight out of a UKIP manifesto.
UKIP wants to privatise the NHS. The Tory's do too, they just don't/can't say so.
Can you envisage a major present Tory policy which UKIP wouldn't support? So to all intents and purposes, they'll have a mother Tory MP in all but name. In fact he's more inline with present tory policy than someone like Anna Sourby or Nicky Morgan.
And of course its yet another nail in the coffin of the Labour Party
Clearly a degree of smugness from me as when I posted of a UKIP threat to Labour in the North a few years back I was ridiculed here.
Not by me. Its probably the only issue on which I've constantly agreed with you. The writing has been on the wall about losing seats to UKIP since the [url= http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/labour-win-heywood-middleton-by-election-7913084 ]Middleton Byelection[/url]
have already been shown to be falsehoods a million times.
Well, that is a nice round number for someone claiming to be on the side of truth.
The Tory's do too,
Do they ? Or do you just want them to, whist they twiddle with the ends of their moustaches, and make pantomime villain noises ?
In the meantime, the conservatives are now more trusted on the NHS than Labour are.
[url= http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2016/08/18/labour-attacks-its-own-privatisation-of-the-nhs/ ][/url]
On the most important issues at the moment UKIP and Tory party is pretty much the same.
I get that, but they really shouldn't be. There are plenty of EU supporting, One Nation tories, who don't align with UKIP at all. To my mind the Tories caving in to UKIP is the equivalent of Labour caving in to the Momentum / Socialist Worker lot. Looks bad for both parties.
Can the Lib Dems start rising from the ashes? (I doubt it with their awful wet leader, but you never know.)
My interpretation of your list is that it's #alternativefacts that have already been shown to be falsehoods a million times. Period.
Let's start with McDonnell, he's on video saying he's a Marxist
Ditto Corbyn on NATO and his suggestion of subs with no nuclear missiles
Video of Corbyn calling Hezbollah friends whilst hosting them at Westminster, a massive PR gain for them
Quote from another MP in Commons speaking about the IRA and Labour leadership
Binners it's essential that the NHS works better with Private Care/Insurers. That's how the other European services work. Labour where going to "save our NHS" with an extra £2bn pa in 2015. That's a joke claim, £2bn doesn't even scratch the surface os what's required
Labour will lose both these seats. Its just a case of how heavily
All the Tories need to do in Copelend is repeat all the statements by CND supporting Corbyn about the nuclear industry. Which is basically what the entire local economy is dependent on. Given his decades of hostility, even if he states he now supports it, nobody will believe him.
Just one more example of his decades of making daft statements, and taking ridiculous sixth-former-esque positions now making him, and by extension the whole labour party, electorally toxic.
If he shows his face up there during the campaign, it'll lead to a huge Tory majority. I bet the local candidate will be pleading with central office for Corbyn not to get involved in any way. Not that it'll make much difference. The damage is already done
"have already been shown to be falsehoods a million times."Well, that is a nice round number for someone claiming to be on the side of truth.
Have someone explain it to you.
Sorry jams, I'm not playing your silly game - making stuff up, snipping context, misquoting, just to bog down discussion on terrain distant from what's actually important.
A quick google brings up this Tory literature. [url= http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jeremy-corbyn-urged-by-copeland-labour-activists-to-be-more-pro-nuclear-to-help-by-election-moorside-power-plans_uk_587d045ae4b0f3b82a384ca2 ]He's already done their job for them in Copeland....[/url]
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A quick google brings up this Tory literature. He's already done their job for them in Copeland....
Considering most of the activity at Sellafield is focused on decommissioning then they might agree with him. Sellafield hasn't generated power for decades and even then it was mainly to manufacture plutonium for polaris and trident, which they haven't done now for quite some time.
Thats neither here nor there. My dad spent his life as a BNFL engineer, so I know pretty well what people think. I spent loads of time up there with him. And the local population (the voters - remember them?) solidly support the biggest employer in the area. As would you if you lived up there. If you turned up in places like Whitehaven with some 'close down the nuclear industry' nonsense, as Jeremy has done for decades, you'd get lynched!
Theres also the small mater of the submarine manufacture just down the coast at Barrow. Another massive employer in the area
Have a read of that article I've linked mate. Its about the proposed new plant up there, which would guarantee 20,000 jobs. Which has massive support in the area, but the messiah won't actually back.
I'd put my house on it going Tory. Another previously rock solid Labour seat sacrificed at the alter of Corbyn's juvenile, detached-from-reality sixth form politics
I guess the thing about having a national policy is that it might not play well in certain constituencies. It's better that than chopping and changing policy before each by-election though.
Can someone confirm closing Nuclear Power stations is Labour policy?
I doubt it.
It isn't.
But when did that ever matter to him? This is Corbyn being Corbyn. Remember when he was asked to back Trident, because that is official party policy (the unions made sure of that!)? But he wouldn't, because he couldn't, as he's personally opposed it for decades?
So you had the total farce of the Labour leader stood at the despatch box, refusing to endorse official labour party policy. Thus rendering himself an absolute laughing stock!
Well this is just a rerun of that. If he opposes it, he's ****ed! As pretty much the entire local population (you know them.... the voters?) disagrees with him. And if he comes out now and supports it, then he just looks ridiculous, given his previous statements, and nobody would believe him anyway.
Thats what you get for unthinkingly spending decades playing to the sixth form gallery, and advocating policies that don't survive contact with the real world, and are massively unpopular (with good reason) with most voters
making stuff up, snipping context, misquoting
DrJ. See my list. All nailed on facts. It was a responce to an earlier question.
So you had the total farce of the Labour leader stood at the despatch box, refusing to endorse official labour party policy. Thus rendering himself an absolute laughing stock! [b]and massive electoral asset to the Tories/UKIP/Lib Dems[/b]
Nuclear. No it's not Party Policy but it is Corbyn's personal belief. As such it's reasonable to assume Corbyn might seek to change Party policy going forward. Look at his EU stance, he was an anti-EU campaigner for decades, then in theory backed Remain but look what happened in the Referendum ( 🙂 )
DrJ the Labour Party and it's supporters are going to have to have some answers even if [b]you[/b] don't. There will be a total Tsunami of this coming JC/Labour's way once the Tory election machine turns its fire on Labour in the run-up to 2020 GE. Youtube is a wonderful asset today, hours of footage to cut together to show the JC who voted against his own party 500 times
Jamb you were asked for policies not random things. ie J.M being a Marxist is not a policy.
Oh, if you want policies, I'm sure that there are a couple on Article 50 and the Single Market here:
😆
Alongside it being obvious that he can't even manage a 3 line whip of the Cabinet Of
None Of The Talents.
Oh and some empty, meaningless phrases like "Tory Brexit".
"Would Labour do... ?"
"But teh Tories"
"No, what would Labour do in this case ? "
"But teh Tories!!"
Well given that the government had a bit of a hiccup with their brexit agenda yesterday, the Maybot must have been mightily relieved to have a much easier day at the office today, as Jezza reached new levels of total ineptitude.
He started by offering condolences to the family of the police officer who was killed in Northern Ireland yesterday. A nice gesture. Apart from the fact that he's still alive.
They were reporting afterwards that Labour MP's were walking out in disgust at the worst yet of his totally ineffectual and blundering keystone cops PMQ'a performances
He's obviously had a spot of media coaching though, as he used the phrase 'bargain basement tax haven' approximately 974 times. I think the Maybot actually yawned when he got to 900.
Ed Miliband asked a question to huge cheers. He now looks like Churchill compared to the present 'leader of the opposition'
Giving his condolences for their loss, to the family of a police officer currently recovering in hospital was not, I would guess, a high point in Jezza's stellar career.
Ed Miliband asked a question to huge cheers. He now looks like Churchill compared to the present 'leader of the opposition'
It does make you wonder why he carries on with this. I'm not sure that labour MPs (assuming it's them not the tories) cheering their former leader is a particularly good idea though. They're sticking two fingers up to the membership, and come the day that Corbyn decides to put an end to this silly situation, bridges will have to be built. I have almost zero faith in the PLP to be able to do this, and this sort of behaviour pretty much guarantees that they'll lurch from this crisis to a new one with some other poor sod in the firing line.
Giving his condolences for their loss, to the family of a police officer currently recovering in hospital was not, I would guess, a high point in Jezza's stellar career.
Indeed I was gobsmacked (edit saw binners mentioned that too of course)
Watched it live today (always a good use of 30-40 mins over lunch). He has gone from trying the academic studiousness of a University lecturer reading out emails/letters from citizens to now just being very very shouty. The problem is even if he does have a good point to make May has so much ammunition about him and the party it's massively one sided.
DrJ. See my list. All nailed on facts.
Not just nailed on facts, but jambafacts!
Indeed DrJ. One and the same.
From Guido Fawkes. It's so crazy I struggle to believe it's true 😯
[b]Labour have selected an ardent Remainer who backed Turkey joining the EU as their candidate in the Stoke-on-Trent by-election[/b]. Gareth Snell, a councillor who used to work in Tristram Hunt’s office, was the most vocal Remainer on the final shortlist. He has tweeted dozens of times about his opposition to Brexit, calling it a “massive pile of sh*t” and tweeting in support of Turkish membership of the EU. [b]That sound you can hear is Paul Nuttall celebrating…[/b]
There are just no words for how dumb that is.
Corbyn is an IRA supporting friend of Hamas -
Labourfact!
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So Labour have put an anti-Corbyn Remainer up for Stoke?
So if he loses/wins, who takes the blame/credit?
I'm so confused.
BTW It's not surprising this thread is full of Guido Fawkes stuff. The posters on there share a very similar MO to many on here.
Heres an interesting question. If Corbyn is feted constantly by 'The Membership' for being a 'Conviction Politician' [url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/24/remoaner-article-50-brexit-labour ]does this make Owen Smith one?[/url] 😆
Now now Cranberry let me correct that for you
Corbyn is an IRA supporting friend of Hamas -
[s]Labourfact![/s]
#Jambyfact
This is what his colleagues are calling him. The Tories are going to be a lot tougher
colleagues
😀
Heres an interesting question. If Corbyn is feted constantly by 'The Membership' for being a 'Conviction Politician' does this make Owen Smith one?
He's reiterating comments he made last summer, and given the timing, it's difficult to believe that he's not just posturing. That said, to give him his due, he's been consistently pro-European.
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/27/jeremy-corbyn-article-50-vote-two-labour-whips-refuse ]A new rebellion is building I see[/url]. This one might actually see him off. Surely even Corbyn would struggle to justify staying in post if he lost two shadow cabinets in the space of a year?
If the whips, who are responsible for ensuring party discipline, are revolting you definitely have a problem.
There is a general problem for MPs in remain areas though - if they vote for article 50 they will face censure from their electorate, but to vote against the white paper is to vote against democracy. I could well understand them deciding to abstain in this situation - say that they cannot in good conscience vote to trigger Art 50, but will not seek to frustrate the democratic will of the country.
Corbyn should have made it a free vote. Let members represent the will of their voters (or not) Labour really is ****ed over this. Who'd want the top job now?
Shadow home secretary Diane Abbott said voting against the bill would "be very undermining of democracy"."MPs voted for a referendum, there was an extraordinary high turn out - 72% - 17m people voted to leave. Many of them in some of our poorest areas," she told the BBC.
"How would it look if a bunch of politicians and commentators in London turned round and said: 'We know you voted to leave but we're just going to ignore you?'"
Of course, pandering to the most ignorant and racist sections of society is the right way to do things. Fortunately I've always disliked the woman.
If he offered a free vote he'd just be accused of not showing any leadership.
It should be a free vote. The referendum was advisory so they should certainly consider its result. Its just how they consider it. Bristol West was 80% remain. The interesting thing in that article is that Labour have the 25 most pro remain constituencies and the 25 most pro leave. If that is true then it shows they really are a party of 2 halves. Bristol West is firmly in the middle class islington elite section, although may well go green next time.A new rebellion is building I see
There is a general problem for MPs in remain areas though - if they vote for article 50 they will face censure from their electorate, but to vote against the white paper is to vote against democracy. I could well understand them deciding to abstain in this situation - say that they cannot in good conscience vote to trigger Art 50, but will not seek to frustrate the democratic will of the country.
No way. If they think leaving the EU will cause significant damage to the UK they are honor bound to vote against it, just as they would if there was a referendum to nuke Bristol. The referendum had no more legal meaning than an opinion poll.
Even if it did compel them to do something it was only decided by 2pc which would be fairly easily ignored.
I can only conclude the truth must be either:
1) In their opinion Brexit won't do much harm or might even be beneficial.
2) In their opinion Brexit will be so utterly bad it won't happen even if they vote for it.
I voted remain, but you are on very dodgy ground making that assumption. It was a mistake to have a referendum in the first place. Hopefully that's a lesson learnt.Of course, pandering to the most ignorant and racist sections of society is the right way to do things.
It should be a free vote.
On an issue as big as this even a 3 line whip is effectively a free vote because Nobody is going to wreck Britain in exchange for the promise of a short term ministerial position.
The consequences the Whips are insignificant in comparison to the consequences of disaster for the UK.
This was always going to happen though, wasn't it? The 'leader' who has spent his entire career rebelling against the party leadership, now telling everyone they better bloody well do as they're told, was always going to be met with a whole lot of "yeah, right... whatever!"
Especially on an issue as huge and divisive as this
Especially on an issue as huge, and divisive as this
I think that's the crux, more so than Corbyn's record. On a finely balanced and insignificant issue people will toe the line. On this? No chance.
Obviously it shouldn't be a 3-line whip. He's just inviting rebellion and handing a perfect opportunity for his opponents to mount a new challenge to him. This time they can at least claim they're rebelling on a point of principle, rather than simply seeking to get rid of him. It's so idiotic I'm beginning to think he's trying to engineer a way out where he can step down without being accused of betraying the membership. He surely would have to step down if another mass shadow cabinet walkout occured. Wouldn't he?
It's so idiotic I'm beginning to think he's trying to engineer a way out
Corbyn can't lose. He genuinely wants out of the EU. If the cost is he loses the leadership then great, he never wanted it in the first place and it's been an utter nightmare for him from day one. Win Win.
I don't think he will be put out of his misery though - he's like Mugabe, he wants to go but his henchmen (the membership in this case) won't let him.
This was always going to happen though, wasn't it? The 'leader' who has spent his entire career rebelling against the party leadership, now telling everyone they better bloody well do as they're told, was always going to be met with a whole lot of "yeah, right... whatever!"
Every vote has been a free vote for Corbs so he could have said "all votes under me a free votes" New Politics etc.
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/27/labour-mp-jo-stevens-quits-shadow-cabinet-over-article-50-vote ]Another one gone. [/url]
She can think it's a "terrible mistake" all she likes but it Brexit is a done deal, just the details to work out and they will be determined by the Government. She would be better served trying to make Labour electable by 2025.
It does look like he is trying hard to jump.
In reality there was lots he could do, make a play for the disaffected, point out what is at stake for them and how they want safe guards to limit what can be don without more consultation. He could be proposing a lot of amendments aimed at the core disillusioned labour vote, he has many options but he will just quietly go away....
Anyone know where Jezza is today? The whole world is kicking off about Trump's muslim ban, our own prime minister is openly being accused of being an appeaser, a million people have signed a petition in less than 24 hours, and the main thing I've heard/seen from the labour party is their former leader sending a tweet out. I presume he's too busy to consider a couple of off the cuff interviews on the news channels?
Monday is jam making day.
It's Vanessa Redgrave's birthday, so they'll be in a front room somewhere, perhaps railing against something and writing banners.
Monday is jam making day.
I thought he was "totally against sugar on health grounds", though?
Yes, but he is for jam because some people who eat jam might be footballers.
He was on Pesto on Sunday. Perhaps today is a recovery day?
some people who eat jam might be footballers.
*applause*
He's trying to make his mind up what to say and then practice saying it without deviation. That takes time
There seems to be some subtleties to this Article 50 bill that I can't quite get my head around.
The way it's written in the Guardian is that there is one vote (next week) and that the 3 line whip is for that.
Elsewhere I've read that there are 3 votes and it can be stopped at any time. The 3 line whip is only for the first of these, to show that Labour recognise and respect the referendum result.
At the second 2 votes more amendments take place and the 'shape' of the bill becomes clearer, allowing Labour to specify exactly which elements of the bill they object to should they wish to vote against.
I've read a few political commentators say that JC is actually playing this pretty well, although that's certainly not how the media are portraying it. Basically giving May enough rope to hang herself with.
Basically giving May enough rope to hang herself with.
Easy done though if you don't tie the other end to something it doesn't work....
Alex all legislation has 4 readings / debates / votes, namely commons / lords / commons / lords
Supposedly 100 Labour MPs will defy the whip (in JC's mould 😉 ) plus the SNP - so vote will be something like 500 vs 150
But the question is, does the whip only refer to the first vote and is Labour going to vote against when it comes back?
But the question is, does the whip only refer to the first vote and is Labour going to vote against when it comes back?
They get to decide each time, any amendments need to be voted on their merits so you reevaluate your position each time it comes back. If somebody is actually thinking there will be something that has to appeal to enough tories and opposition to stall it. Given May's recent performance wonder if as many are feeling like she is the right one for the job...
I do think Corbyn has made a mistake here. As above tho he would be pilloried in the press no matter what he does.
A large section of the party want to pander to the xenphobes, another section have principles and will vote in accordance with them. the vast majority of labour mps personally want to stay in.
But the question is, does the whip only refer to the first vote and is Labour going to vote against when it comes back?
Why would the whip significantly effect how MPs vote on an issue as big as this?
I love Corbyn's Logic.....
I am going to table a stack of amendments to your bill, but regardless of your reaction to any of those is, I've ordered everyone that they absolutely have to vote in support of it anyway
Right up there with 'don't tell 'em your name Pike!'
I am going to table a stack of amendments to your bill, but regardless of your reaction to any of those is, I've ordered everyone that they absolutely have to vote in support of it anyway
Which given he's in favour of leaving the EU is spot on. If he can make the exit as smooth as possible his leadership will have a achieved something in the eyes of the left.
binners - that's why I'm asking if there is actually a plan to block later. i.e. be seen to follow the referendum, until something specific to May's brexit gives them a plausible reason to block.
(plausible in the eyes of leavers in Labour heartlands).
Probably too much to hope for.
hat's why I'm asking if there is actually a plan to block later.
If there is a plan I'm sure somebody will tell him about it when it's time...
You get the feeling Ed would have at least managed a small wood carving by now
A plan?
Sure there's a plan. A cunning one. As cunning as a cunning fox who has just been appointed professor of cunning at Oxford University....
It's what everyone associates with Jeremy after all. Fox like political cunning
I do think Corbyn has made a mistake here.
It's going to bury him. His entire leadership is premised on the rejection of new labour tory-lite policies. Yet on the single biggest and most important issue in decades, the labour party at his command are once again voting to support the tories (and UKIP).
The vast majority of labour MPs are staunchly pro-remain.
A large majority of labour voters are pro-remain.
Most trade unions are pro-remain.
Most (IMO - I don't know the figures) labour members are pro-remain.
Most (again IMO) Corbyn leadership voters are pro-remain.
Absolute madness. I know a lot of people who voted for Corbyn. Not a single one of them I've spoken to supports his position, and are now openly saying that he's no better than previous leaders who pandered to vocal minority interests. The only difference this time is that instead of middle class marginal voters, it's working class reactionaries. The former would at least have won him some elections, the latter will never vote for him anyway.
Fox like political cunning
Well, something beginning with 'c' . . .
Pretty much bang on there Daz. But that's conviction politics for you. What the hell did people expect?
The irony of the archetypal lefty, the stuff of right wing press horror stories, delivering the Tory's a complete unopposed free pass to tear up workers rights, then a blank sheet of paper to re-write the constitution, absolutely defies belief!
Or it would be if it was anyone else other than that ****-wit handing it to them
And that's before you even start to think about the serial rebel getting all huffy about backbenchers refusing to do his bidding on a matter of principle, and we truly are in la la land
He's about to sign away pretty much everything Labour achieved over a whole century. Their whole legacy! And he's too stubborn and shit thick to even see it!
Conviction politics eh? Brilliant!
Jammy c***?
But that's conviction politics for you.
I'm not even sure this is conviction politics. Corbyn's own views aside, the clear principles of the labour party are pro-remain, and to me and everyone else it looks like Corbyn is going against these principles in favour of electoral expediency*. That's not conviction politics, it's no better than what new labour did.
*He hasn't even got this right, as voting for article 50 is not going to win or save him any seats. When the blairites abandoned party principles they at least won elections, Corbyns going to throw the baby out with the bath water.
This is them explaining their position as clearly as possible:
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/826420366574620672
Perhaps he believes (1) in respecting the vote and (2) that immigrants are not the root of our problems. Radical views I accept.
respecting the vote
I'd prefer he respected the vote of the vast majority of labour voters, MPs and members, and the 48% of people who voted in the referendum. His job is to oppose the government, not give them a blank cheque in a shameless and pointless attempt to appease idiots and racists in constituencies where UKIP are stirring up hatred and racism.