CFH well Corbyn's use of the word Comrade is of no surprise to me and yes it is a throw back to the '70s
Frank Skinner was on the NYE Graham Norton Show and said "wealth redistribution is what the Communists do". There in a nutshell is Labour's problem under Corbyn.
Finland trialling basic income for 2000 unemployed now, crazy idiots!
As for the language thing, have you heard Rees-Mogg or Boris talk FFS?
Frank Skinner was on the NYE Graham Norton Show and said "wealth redistribution is what the Communists do". There in a nutshell is Labour's problem under Corbyn.
Wealth redistribution is done today in UK via taxes. Okay it is not done very well but it is a attempt within a very unfair capitalist model. Poorest get credits/benefits, lower tax etc,. rich get just the tax part.
Corbyn's task is to do it properly and get people to understand it but that is very hard when people are not listening and the media, powerful and rich don't want it to happen. It is why he needs to get a bit populist about it.
Corbyn's wealth redistribution (inc citizens income) will be paid for by the Middle Classes. Rich people have the most flexibility and will move assets/themselves and won't pay. We have had ludicrously high taxes before and they don't work.
If universal basic income is such a mad idea why is there such interest in it at the moment? Areas in Canada, Finland, Netherlands running or in the process of setting up trials, Scotland reportedly looking into it too.
Which form of UBI do you think we should be considering Lifer?
The correct one or the Labour fudge?
What's the labour fudge? And is there a 'correct' one at the moment? That people are running limited trials suggests not...
There are different versions, true. As you proposed the idea, I am interested in which version you would support.
People are running trials, we have had an unsuccessful vote in Switz and there is renewed interest in the idea acorss thevpolitical spectrum, although it is not a new idea. Hence it's important to be clear what we are talking about.
I think it's an interesting idea and could solve a lot of problems (increasing automation of jobs simplified benefits system for example), I haven't crunched any numbers but will watch how the trials go in each area.
In terms of which one I think the only way it can be sold to the electorate is as a citizens income, so in work or not everyone receives the same amount. Would tax thresholds have to change?
A few drawbacks I see are pushing people into a higher tax code so they would receive less take home (I don't know if this could happen?), employers seeing it as a subsidy to wages.
It would be good to replace tax credits/benefits with a neater system. Would it replace the state pension?
I think so yes, but I guess that's one of the myriad variables to examine
But this is a key question that too many fudge, avoid or simply get wrong
Are we debating a CI or UBI that replaces existing benefits or merely complements them?
Isn't that up to debate in itself? 😆
For me, replaces. The simplification is the only way I can see money to fund it can be clawed from somewhere, in this case to existing benefits and the cost of administering existing benefits.
re we debating a CI or UBI that replaces existing benefits or merely complements them?
It's got to be a universal replacement for benefits and generous enough to ensure payments don't have to be topped up. Something like 20k a year? It'll take a long time to implement but I think it's inevitable in the long term. If they don't do it then the future govts have a major unemployment and welfare problem to solve. And yes, middle class people will pay for it, one way or the other, whether they like it or not. That will be the price of their good fortune.
As for labour's fudge, they haven't even announced it as a policy yet so how can you reject it? They probably will 'fudge' it, but that's because it's impossible to bring in overnight for all sorts of reasons. It'll take an extended transition to get the amount right, iron out the local irregularities and bring in all the supporting legislation around rent and price controls.
If universal basic income is such a mad idea why is there such interest in it at the moment? Areas in Canada, Finland, Netherlands running or in the process of setting up trials, Scotland reportedly looking into it too.
Interest = Trawling for votes.
Swiss Refefendum rejected it by 77% to 33
Interest = Trawling for votes.Swiss Refefendum rejected it by 77% to 33
Of course they're trawling for votes. That's what political parties do. If they think a UBI is a vote winning policy then that shows it's not as extreme or fringe idea as many make out. Of course the best policies are ones that win votes and also solve big problems. The UBI promises to do both those.
The swiss vote was too early. There'd be a similar result here too. There's an awful lot of education and adjustment of public attitudes which needs to happen first. Even if the labour party promised it as a policy now, it would take 2 parliaments at least to implement.
[quote=jambalaya ]
Swiss Refefendum rejected it by 77% to 33
#jambafact right there
Corbyn's wealth redistribution (inc citizens income) will be paid for by the Middle Classes.
That's fine
Rich people have the most flexibility and will move assets/themselves and won't pay.
Think of a better way to stop them then. Lump sum taxes rather than % that can be avoided
We have had ludicrously high taxes before and they don't work.
The way it was done before, but as above - do it differently/more effectively.
Anyone against even trying is clearly happy with inequality and in most cases going to be one of the fortunate/lucky ones who has money (from family, genetics, education etc,.)
Tax wealth aswell as income.
Anyone read 'animal farm' by George Orwell?
Corbyn's task is to do it properly and get people to understand it but that is very hard when people are not listening and the media, powerful and rich don't want it to happen. It is why he needs to get a bit populist about it.
Its also a pity that of all sitting MP's, theres only one who's less equipped to be populist (barring the appeal to middle class sixth formers, trying to piss their parents off of course). And thats Rees Mogg.
I just can't see UBI being anything other than a disaster as it incentivises the middle class to look for higher returns on their money leading to inflation of assets by enabling higher gearing of loans. Putting more money into the hands of those who are well off makes no sense.
Also what's the out of it is a cockup? Which politician is going to pull the plug?
Actuality Scottie, Jambas is being conservative 😉 the vote against was 78% according to my source.
Tax is a withdrawal from the economy. Be careful how you use it! We are already at/around the level at which tax revenue decreases when you raise the marginal rate. Probably why politicians in power are very careful to raise it eg, SNP or Labour until they set their rather petty, if effective, trap for the Tories
Like rats* in a sack this evening:
Len has told the country the Jez might well step down if he continues to be a clusterf*ckup.
Jez has refused to comment.
Gerard has told Len that he is meant to give a damn about the union's members.
Len has consulted his thesaurus of insults and has called Gerard "unscrupulous".
I wonder what Tess's lead in the polls will be tomorrow.
* Sorry, rats, if you feel degraded by the comparison
UBI instead of complex and costly welfare and other benefits has much to recommend it. UBI in addition to, much less so.
From what I have read, JMcD is verging more towards the latter under the guise of the former, which would be a mistake.
Don't forget - UBI is actually a leftie rebranding of what was actually an ultra-right wing proposal by Milton Friedman of a negative income tax.
I know it must hurt the lefties to admit it, but their golden solution is a classic neo-con idea by the father of trickle-down supply-side economics and Chicago price theory 😆
Dazh so £20k per person, that's £40k a couple then 😯 I probabiy wouldn't bother to work at that level. Assuming it kicked in at 18yrs old then that's lifetime payments of £1.2m per person plus free healthcare etc all assuming zero inflation.
ctk the Swiss have a wealth tax, varies by region but it's around 0.25% and it's offset against other taxes (ie you pay the greater of) so imagine interest rates are 3% and tax on income is 40% that equates to a tax on that "wealth" of 1.2% which is much much higher. Also council tax (mine anyway) is the equivalent of about 0.4% tax on wealth and would be much higher if I had a mortgage, obviously double at 0.8% if mortgage was 50% LTV.
If there really isn't to be enough work in the future for the population (robots, offshore manufacturing etc etc) then the very harsh reality is we need less people. What I find bizarre is that by choice most developed countries (Germany is a very good example) have a low birth rate, they choose to have less kids not least as the costs and lifestyle sacrafices are too high. Then we have politicians telling them they need immigration to pay the pensions of those same people. Seems to me they are making a rational economic and lifestyle choice, if there are pensions to be paid they should be saving for them.
It isn't really ninfan, it's a slightly different concept. And anyway Milton was far from the first person to come up with Neg Taxation concepts anyway, I know of at least one Liberal politician of the 40's proposing it. I can't be arsed to look her (I think) up.
the very harsh reality is we need less people
Looking forward to seeing how you propose to put this into practice.
Of course your idea is utter blx. If robots will do all the work, then humans can sit back and relax, however many there are.
NIckC - Rhys-Williams? I don't believe that he concept was fully formed by then, but the idea was so popular with them that she left the Liberals and joined the Tories 😀
Agreed it's a variation on a theme
And another interesting example of something that has supporters across the political spectrum. And then the actual politicians bugger it up
Getting back on topic to the more pressing issue for Comrades Jezza and John, and Len, and Dianne... [url= http://news.sky.com/story/len-mccluskey-maintains-he-still-backs-corbyn-after-quit-prediction-10715702 ]They're definitely having trouble getting the piano up the stairs[/url]
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No doubt all the fault of plotters, traitors, Blairites, and those right wing bastards at the Daily Mirror
I probabiy wouldn't bother to work at that level.
Considering you work in finance I doubt that'd be a great loss 😉 The 20k figure is just a guess. I suspect it would be much less than that. Working out the amount is the hardest bit. It will take trial and error, and radical policies to control inflation, especially regarding rents and property prices via price and credit controls.
then the very harsh reality is we need less people.
Totally agree. But again that's not a policy that you can bring in overnight, unless we go back to totalitarian government and start banning procreation and killing undesirables. It's a known fact that richer societies have less babies. If you want to reduce the population, then a UBI could be a useful indirect tool with which to achieve it.
Totally agree. But again that's not a policy that you can bring in overnight, unless we go back to totalitarian government and start banning procreation and killing undesirables. It's a known fact that richer societies have less babies. If you want to reduce the population, then a UBI could be a useful indirect tool with which to achieve it.
All you need to do is to reduce the subsidies that parents get for their children (tax credits, etc ) - the parents themselves will then regulate how many children they have.
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the parents themselves will then regulate how many children they have.
Yes, of course they will. 🙄
Dazh, exactly I wouldn't work for fhe greater good of society. I would wear my altrusim medal with pride. 🙂
DrJ ultimately all the "work" could be done by robots abroad and we do absolutely nothing. How does that work, where does the money come from ? As for my population comment it's really just a logical extension of natural sustainable population levels. An "out there" thought but one of thise big issues we do need to think about.
Robots won't do everything by a long way. But they have and will continue to destroy old school factory jobs. Instead employees will need even better soft skills, along with creative and analytical skills if they want a job.
There is already a perceptive piece on this subject - Fragment on Machines by Karl Marx 🙂
exactly I wouldn't work for fhe greater good of society
I don't doubt that for a second! However the UBI isn't about that. It's about working for the greater good of yourself. Some people will only be interested in accumulating money and buying stuff, and they will continue to be able to do that by doing whatever job they can get which pays them the most. Many people however, will be more interested in quality of life enabled by having a more equitable balance between work, home, and leisure. The UBI creates the opportunity to do not just that, but also to find work which is interesting and fulfilling, rather than just paying the highest wage. The key thing is that you and everyone else will have a choice as to what sort of life you wish to lead free of the fear of falling into poverty. I guess that's crazy utopian rubbish though isn't it.
The key thing is that you and everyone else will have a choice as to what sort of life you wish to lead free of the fear of falling into poverty.
I've always wanted to lead a life lounging around at home doing nothing apart from occasionally trimming my toenails. This sounds ideal to me, as someone will pay me for it! ORSUM!
🙂
I probabiy wouldn't bother to work at that level.
I bet you would think of all that extra hot money looking for a place to make good returns, there would be mega money to be made.
I've always wanted to lead a life lounging around at home doing nothing apart from occasionally trimming my toenails. This sounds ideal to me, as someone will pay me for it! ORSUM!
Did you read my mind ? Who would have believed there'd be two of us ?
BTW I thought I'd do some cash in hand work, maybe some winter and summer holiday type work abroad too
I've always wanted to lead a life lounging around at home doing nothing apart from occasionally trimming my toenails. This sounds ideal to me, as someone will pay me for it! ORSUM!Did you read my mind ? Who would have believed there'd be two of us ?
BTW I thought I'd do some cash in hand work, maybe some winter and summer holiday type work abroad too
Works for me, too!
I guess I'm fairly close, I collect and deliver cars for a living, I'm transported to each delivery, except the first one, which is a car I take home in the evening.
The driving makes up about half of my working day, which can sometimes be up to sixteen hours, but the rest of that time I'm mostly napping in the back of the team car.
Easiest job I've ever had! 😀
And yes, middle class people will pay for it, one way or the other, whether they like it or not. That will be the price of their good fortune.
I'm sure all the teachers, nurses and doctors will react with unbridled joy at that suggestion.
I'm sure all the teachers, nurses and doctors will react with unbridled joy at that suggestion.
It's OK, I will be polite and thank them profusely for their efforts
Are you allowed to start businesses n shit? Or is the daytime TV while having a sexbot clipping your toenails compulsory?
Doesn't matter if you are allowed you'd just do it on the QT. Work abroad. Cash in hand, barter. Do that design work for a free bike, holiday ....
I'm sure all the teachers, nurses and doctors will react with unbridled joy at that suggestion.
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With all that time on your hands you may be even inspired to check some facts and get a clue!
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/03/finland-trials-basic-income-for-unemployed
All you need to do is to reduce the subsidies that parents get for their children (tax credits, etc ) - the parents themselves will then regulate how many children they have.
No they won't - they will continue to have children but have less money so the children suffer even more.
Sad fact is, there is more to stop you getting a cat from a re-homing charity than there is to bringing a child into the world.
Dr - I am sure that you had a rye smile at the political persuasion of the party introducing the Finnish trial!!
Back to poor old Jezza, with Fabians like this who needs enemies?!?
It's too early in the day for a rye smile - at this hour I usually content myself with a wry smile.
Those Fabians are just defeatists, next they'll be saying we need Blair back. Sod the principles we need to win. Corbyn has more chance than people realise, good portion of what he is saying will be supported by voters and the tory government is bound to mess up Brexit. Its the media that are against him and now surprisingly McCluskey. Mind he'll say anything to keep his job int union living of the backs of the members.
Bloody apple spell check Doc!
I know mt life's not fair is it - biased media, party, polls, unions etc. Why is it so hard to stay on message?
I read this last night, perhaps I should get out a bit more 😉
Can't win , can't be wiped out. The last part maybe optimistic as we've seen in Scotland, maybe not in 2020 but by 2025 ? Labour in a mess over Brexit and Tories taking votes from all the other parties. Low scenario of 140 seats and Labour typically underperforms mid term polls in actual elections.
Never a good strategy to rely on the other side messing up.
Anyway what would a mess up of Brexit look like? I can't see Corbyn coming up with the answers even if things are going down the drain. Mind currently FTSE100 is up and manufacturing sentiment is up, so things are looking okay.
Amazing what a large devaluation will do!!!
Labour might be in a mess re Brexshit but doesn't matter as mud will stick firmly with the Tories rightly or wrongly
Never a good strategy to rely on the other side messing up.
Have you missed the last 40 years of politics? The difference this time is both sides are messing up. I wouldn't be half surprised if neither May or Corbyn fight the next election. What odds on Balls vs Osborne in 2020?
What odds on Balls vs Osborne in 2020?
Very long ones
May is doing just fine, it's only amongst Labour voting Remainers she's unpopular.
I thought Corbyn would be gone after the Scottish elections, third place to Tories wasn't terminal though. Maybe he will struggle on till 2020. Hope so.
Its the media and voters that are against him and now surprisingly McCluskey.
FTFY
May is doing just fine
Give it time. She's making the same mistake as Corbyn, in trying to navigate a path between the two sides on brexit. Her party is far more divided than labour is on brexit and this will start to create huge problems for her very soon. Add to that the huge questions on her competence to manage such a complex problem (red white and blue brexit?), and her flimsy majority, she's on a hiding to nothing. At least labour are thrashing out their internecine demons early on when it doesn't matter, the tories haven't even started yet.
What voters are against him? He aint been put to the test yet. Scotland don't apply as they are side tracked in nationalism. Pity that as them seem to have some of the best politicians who can actually lead.
Hoping a divided Tory party will rescue Labour is 2020's version of banking on UKIP hurting the Tories in 2015.
The Tories are only divided on Brexit in terms of the type but in reality they all knows we will be leaving the Customs Union and THE Single Market. The Remainer Toires where the short termists just looking at the 2020 GE
Scotland don't apply as they are side tracked in nationalism. Pity that as them seem to have some of the best politicians who can actually lead.
Indeed. Shows what happens when people are offered credible politicians to vote for, instead of the usual sock-puppets. They've even got a likeable Tory. And I never thought I'd type those words.
There was a great quote from Ruth Davidson in the paper last week as one of the quotes of the year. On being told she was to be on Question Time with Angela Eagle, said "What? Are you sure they want two shovel-faced lesbians?" 😆
oh god - you're making the mistake of believing headlines. It's spin. If you read what he actually said, he was trying to defend Corbyn. He has since sought to clarify on twitter, but unfortunately all the media do these days is trawl for comments that they can spin against people.ts the media that are against him and now surprisingly McCluskey
Hoping a divided Tory party will rescue Labour is 2020's version of banking on UKIP hurting the Tories in 2015.
And the tories hoping that labour continues on it's current course isn't the same?
A lot can change in a couple of years. Brexit is a poisoned chalice. May is already looking completely out of her depth and nothing has happened yet. Labour doesn't need to hope that the tories tear themselves apart, they just need to sort out themselves, and I still believe they will before the next election. May is making a huge mistake in not going for an early election. In a couple of years we could easily see a new populist labour leader with a resurgent and united party behind them against a tory party who are still bickering about whatever fudged brexit deal they manage to squeeze out of the EU and whose fault it is.
Daz I don't think the Tories are thinking that. They are keeping quiet so Corbyn remains in place then they will give it the maximum Tsunami force tidal wave in 2020.
What? Are you sure they want two shovel-faced lesbians?"
That's brilliant and she's great. The more you see Thornburry and Abbott on TV the more ****ed you know Labour are. I've mostly lost my Sarf London twang but they are both far posher than me.
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I don't know why we bother with elections when polls are so reliable.
Jez 2.0
That's the Huffington Post headline. Apparently tye re-brand includes him dropping his insistence on freedom of movement. Principals eh and what will Diane say ? Postive on Brexit possibilities too.
If true, then shame on him.. He did at least have conviction on this issue but the nail is well and truly in the coffin of conviction politics now (if that ever existed beyond the soundbite). If these articles are to be believed, then they are in a total mess on the issue, more so than the Tories.
Srabbling about in the gutter and at the feet of the xenophobes is a sad and desperate development. Shame.
TMH
Srabbling about in the gutter and at the feet of the xenophobes is a sad and desperate development. Shame.
Says a Tory lol. Election pledge for migration down to 100k? Ring any bells?
I dont see anything in those articles that gets near to xenophobia.
Jamba
Apparently tye re-brand includes him dropping his insistence on freedom of movement. Principals eh and what will Diane say ? Postive on Brexit possibilities too.
Seems a logical position to me just turns the screw on the Tories everso slightly.
"those are my principles and if you don't like them.. well I have others"
It seems that Comrade No. 1 can't even follow the right Marx.
😆
Jezza's gone full barmy 😯
He is going to propose a maximum National Wage ! As Sky says how will that work in the Premier League (or Formula 1, Tennis, Golf ?)
As I have said the quickest way to improve income inequality is having all the rich people leave, Jezza seems to have taken up my suggestion.
I'm missing something here.
So- T May can do a volte-face and suddenly support Brexit when she's a known Remainer....
and....
Corbyn has now reversed his position on free movement....
....which means...
T May is an arch-strategist, a political cats-paw who's cunningly moving the pieces on the chess-board to suit her agenda
and
Corbyn is a simple hypocrite.
Have I got the spun message correct? You guys need to guide me here.
"T May can do a volte-face and suddenly support Brexit"
I don't see why May would support Brexit, it's a thankless nightmare she'd rather not have to deal with.
Jez 2.0 live on Sky in 10 mins .. tv, web, youtube
As Sky says how will that work in the Premier League (or Formula 1, Tennis, Golf ?)
Good point. We should definitely shape our society to accommodate the wishes of Wayne Rooney. It's so obvious once you think about it!
May was always, at best, rather lukewarm about remaining.
Jeremy, however is the [s]great[/s], [s]successful[/s] [s]conviction[/s] [s]politician[/s] of our age, [s]a rock against the current[/s], [s]not[/s] a man to grub about in the gutter for votes