Buried among the lies, the obvious distortions, and the shameless manipulation of actual facts, you occasionally come across an article which says it as you know to be.
This is one such article :
Epic 🙂
Mind you they may have seen a photo of Gove and felt right at home
Ernie seems a bit harsh to desribe the PLP as opportunists, Leave just won the Referendum not least as Labour did not do enough to pursude its voters to Remain 66/33 wasn't enough. Tories where 40/60 and Kippers 5/95 (probably 0/100 and the 5 was a statisitcal error) - as we can see 66/33 wasn't enough they needed to do better.
Actually 49.59% of party members voted for him when he won the leadership.So according to the YouGov poll Corbyn's support among Labour Party members hasn't fallen recently, which I have to be honest surprises me a little.
One thing above all else that the leadership election last year taught us is just how out of touch Labour MPs are with their own party (never mind their own voters).
So far there is scant evidence that has changed very much.
How dare you come in here spoiling all the fun with actual evidence and staistics Ernie.
The problem for all of us is that we have some numerical evidence to support that Corbyn is more popular than either the press or the STW echo-chamber would have us think. But we have little way of knowing if the upsurge in party membership is 1) representative of general growing national support for labour, or 2) representative of people joining to get hm out or keep him in.
Also genuine naive political question -is there an accepted way of 'measuring' the effectiveness of an opposition party?
...As Corbyn Central posts on facebook listing a large and rather amusing list of conservative u-turns and climbdowns that have taken ace since August, and we have a rather precarious and awful leadership race in the conservative party, yet all I hear from STW and the papers is how ineffective an opposition labour has been. What would be different today had we had Blair or Smith as leader of the opposition?
as we can see 66/33 wasn't enough they needed to do better.
I am more disappointed that the prime minister, the chancellor, helath secretary and the home secretary didn't do better for their own voters. Newsflash: Europe is not an entirely left-right issue, many labour voters voted remain to curb the excesses of the right wing not because it is a labour thing to do. (I do not include myself in this as I don't vote labour and I agreed with the experts).
What would be different today had we had Blair or Smith as leader of the opposition?
they might have some alternative policies to challenge the government with rather than vague JC "reality" based slogans
they might have some alternative policies to challenge the government with rather than vague JC "reality" based slogans
as you keep reminding us.
do you think these vague reality based slogans on the opposite benches have helped or hindered the government? 4-13 months into a 60 month period of government, are policies or parliamentary defeats more important for an effective opposition? And is there a way of measuring this? Again, Corbyn Central seem to have almost all the numbers on their side so far. Surely there must be a way of measuring how bad it really is?
I thought this sums the attitude of the plotters nicely :
[i][b]"Every member of the shadow cabinet who resigned abstained in the vote on the Welfare Reform Bill in 2015. Needless to say, Corbyn voted against it. So those who fail to stand against the most regressive attacks on the poorest want to oust a guy who did stand against it because they say that they need a viable opposition to the Tories. That’s the great warped logic of the Labour cabinet."[/i][/b]
[url= https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/8738/neil-mcleod-appalling-treatment-jeremy-corbyn-shows-where-labour-heading ]The appalling treatment of Jeremy Corbyn shows where Labour is heading[/url]
@ernie....it's because the rally [s]cry[/s]whine of our current political establisment is "but it won't [s]get us elected[/s] give me the power I've been promised by my priviledged education"...however, it's not really surpising they put their egos above the people since they haven't a clue what the majority of this country want/need..
@nifan ...no need to post up links of your Tory leadership contest pin-ups where they're all screaming.."look at me..look at me...I'm just like you really...I went to a comprehensive like you..I grew up in a one parent family...we're the same..you can vote for me I know what it's like to be you.." ...what an embarrasment. 🙄
The Labour Party needs an aspirational message. Right now its all about booing the Tories like a Pantomime villan and spending money we don't have. The parties obession with the Iraq War is fueling its self destruction. As noted in the press yesterday any leadership candidate who voted for the invasion is tainted and a candidate who wasn't even a MP then has a big advantage (independent of the fact that we don't know how they would have voted). That's madness. The party has been overun by activists with other causes than winning a Labour majority. Wrong direction.
We know Corbyn has voted against a lot of things, 500 times against his own Labour Government. Now's he is seeing it cuts both ways. He needs to vote for something and unkess he has support being leader is no different to being a protest MP apart from sitting at the front rather than the back.
No offense, jambalaya, but I do get the impression that you're one of the very last people that anybody even semi-attached to the Labour Party would take advice from. Carry on.
No offense, jambalaya, but I do get the impression that you're one of the very last people that anybody even semi-attached to the Labour Party would take advice from. Carry on.
To be fair David Cameron takes exactly the same position, as this comment in today's Morning Star points out :
[i][b]"If Corbyn were an unelectable disaster for the opposition party, why should the outgoing prime minister demand his replacement by somebody more effective? Even Cameron is not that spiteful towards his Tory successor."[/i][/b]
Jambalaya is just towing the Tory line that Corbyn must be replaced. For the Tories, and most Labour MPs, effective opposition means abstaining, that's why they were elected - not to cause trouble for the Tories on important issues.
And if you doubt the sheer scale of the problem, if you doubt just how rotten and corrupt the Parliamentary Labour Party is :
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/these-are-the-184-labour-mps-who-didn-t-vote-against-the-tories-welfare-bill-10404831.html ]These are the 184 Labour MPs who didn’t vote against the Tories' cuts[/url]
.
The Daily Telegraph has been at the forefront of the campaign to overthrow Corbyn, more so than any other paper including the Daily Mail (TBH in comparison the DM has been quite fair to Corbyn)
The Daily Telegraph obviously has a special relationship with the plotters, [u]10 days before the EU Referendum[/u] the plotters were opening telling the Daily Telegraph that they were about to stage a coup, they even detailed what tactics they would be using.
The Daily Telegraph of June 13 :
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/13/labour-rebels-hope-to-topple-jeremy-corbyn-in-24-hour-blitz-afte/ ]Labour rebels hope to topple Jeremy Corbyn in 24-hour blitz after EU referendum[/url]
Now at that point the smart money was on that voters would vote to Remain, the coup was put off until after the EU Referendum because they simply couldn't have one before. But it had to be before the Chilcot Report.
If you doubt just how serious Chilcot is for the plotters, almost all of whom unlike Corbyn voted for war (which is one of the reasons that they can't decide on a leader) today's Independent :
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tony-blair-chilcot-inquiry-iraq-war-report-impeach-law-a7115266.html ]Chilcot Inquiry: MPs seek to impeach Tony Blair using ancient law[/url]
I don't know who will win the next general election but I do know with complete 100 percent certainty that whatever the result the Daily Telegraph will have backed the Tories.
Corbyn's crime is that he is the first person in living memory to shake up the Parliament/the establishment. For that reason they will relentlessly try to crush him.
And he's only been able to do it now after 30 years in Parliament because of the huge support he has behind him.
Jambalaya is just towing the Tory line that Corbyn must be replaced.
😆
I don't know where the Corbynite conspiracy theories begin or end anymore - Me and Jamba paid three quid to elect the bloke, and I'm sure we would both be happy enough to do so again.
crime is that he is the first person in living memory to shake up the Parliament/the establishment. For that reason they will relentlessly try to crush him.
And he's only been able to do it now after 30 years in Parliament because of the huge support he has behind him.
Eh? Surely this logic should, no indeed [i]must[/i] apply to Farage?
crime is that he is the first person in living memory to shake up the Parliament/the establishment. For that reason they will relentlessly try to crush him.
Really? I've barely noticed him.
No offense, jambalaya, but I do get the impression that you're one of the very last people that anybody even semi-attached to the Labour Party would take advice from. Carry on.
Ninfan and I both voted Labour in 1997 so maybe they should
To be clear I got very close to paying my £3 to vote for him, filled out the form but decided at the last second he was going to win anyway so didn't spend the money. I think my responce to the why question was something like "i am committed to the electorate having the opportunity to vote on a true socialist manifesto in 2020"
Ernie the Labour MPs voted for the "cuts" as they wanted to show fiscal responsibility, the lack of credibility there being a key factor in them losing the 2015 GE
I want to see Corbyn out now a change from me being most amused he was elected as he has become a magnet for extremists and anti-semites (how many other MPs call Hamas and Hezbollah friends), far from tackling the issue he has tried to bury 3 reports and Shami's "report" might was well have had "cover up" written at the top of every one of its 41 pages. I waded through the lot but you only had to read the terms of referemce to see what the objective was. Did anyone ever say the Labour party was "over-run" ? Not even I accused them of that and I am highly critical on the issue. He couldn't even carry off the press conference either, he only had to behave for an hour. His true colours shone through brightly
ninfan - Member" crime is that he is the first person in living memory to shake up the Parliament/the establishment. For that reason they will relentlessly try to crush him.
And he's only been able to do it now after 30 years in Parliament because of the huge support he has behind him. "Eh? Surely this logic should, no indeed must apply to Farage?
Because of course Farage is Leader of the Opposition and as long as his party rallies behind him he stands a chance of becoming the next Prime Minister but one !
Farage is in exactly the same position as Corbyn !!!!!!! 😆
Brilliant ninfan.......don't ever stop! 😆
.
I don't know where the Corbynite conspiracy theories begin or end anymore - Me and Jamba paid three quid to elect the bloke, and I'm sure we would both be happy enough to do so again.
Well read the Daily Telegraph if want to know more about the plots against Corbyn, here's that link again :
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/13/labour-rebels-hope-to-topple-jeremy-corbyn-in-24-hour-blitz-afte/ ]Labour rebels hope to topple Jeremy Corbyn in 24-hour blitz after EU referendum [/url]
Jambalaya might well have "paid three quid to elect the bloke" less than a year ago but back then he was also predicting, with absolute 100% certainty, that with Corbyn as leader Labour would experience electoral meltdown.
That obviously hasn't happened and now all those Daily Telegraph readers who thought their little stunt was so funny are desperately hoping that he will be toppled.
I don't hear Jambalaya talk about the electoral armageddon that will befall Labour if Corbyn remains leader, only lots of reasons why he should be replaced.
The latest one is [i]"The Labour Party needs an aspirational message. Right now its all about booing the Tories like a Pantomime villan and spending money we don't have".[/i]
Not a word about how Corbyn guarantees that Labour gets hammered in elections.
ernie_lynch - MemberThat obviously hasn't happened and now all those Daily Telegraph readers who thought their little stunt was so funny are desperately hoping that he will be toppled.
And have you noticed, they're largely back to pretending that the £3 made a difference, rather than just being a kind donation to the Labour party?
ninfan - Member
...Eh? Surely this logic should, no indeed must apply to Farage?
I agree. In fact Farage has been more successful, but in a destructive way. He has caused the avalanche.
Nigel has been working at shaking the Establishment for a long time.
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Sounds like John Macdonald and his rent-a-mob have now moved on from the 70's to the 80's, and are using the Militant Tendency as a model for acceptable behaviour. It's progress of sorts I suppose. A natural evolution, in a way
That should help improve Jeremy's already huge, and broad, electoral appeal. Everyone loves a politician whos backed up by a bunch of thugs!
Ask Putin.
I presume that's who he's trying to emulate?
Ninfan and I both voted Labour in 1997 so maybe they should
Well, only if they actually think that getting elected is a more effective way of dictating government policy than protesting about it 😆
That kind of thinking is the territory of the bourgeoisie, and must be resisted at all costs comrade!
Because of course Farage is Leader of the Opposition and as long as his party rallies behind him he stands a chance of becoming the next Prime Minister but one !
You may not have noticed, but I'm going to suggest here that in;
i) driving the political agenda to force the PM to offer a referendum on the EU to keep his party together and stand a chance of winning win the last election,
ii) successfully winning that referendum, leading to the resignation of the PM
NIgel Farage has done more to 'shake up the establishment' than Corbyn has achieved in thirty odd years of protest politics.
Ernie, if delivering third to the Tories in Scotland and losing your majority in Wales (who asked him to stay away during the campaign) isn't enough to demonstrate the electoral impact of Corbyn then be my guest and crack on. I have to balance my negative views of Corbyn with the fact that his conduct over the past months has helped deliver a win for Leave.
I am firmly of the view Corbyn will only deliver electoral diaster for Labour, if they want to win they need a radically different agenda than he is promoting.
NIgel Farage has done more to 'shake up the establishment' than Corbyn has achieved in thirty odd years of protest politics.
This
NIgel Farage has done more to 'shake up the establishment' than Corbyn has achieved in thirty odd years of protest politics.
It's far easier to destroy than to create.
Ernie, if delivering third to the Tories in Scotland.....
Yep, Scots turned against Labour because of Corbyn, it had nothing to do with the New Labour/Blairite shower who had been in charge of the Labour Party for the previous 20 years. If only Blair had still been leader, eh?
OK, I see that jambalaya, ninfan, and binners, are all on this thread now, the possibility of a sensible discussion appear too remote. Time to leave it for a while.
From the head of Momentum
The Labour Party has gained 60,000 new members during the current leadership crisis. According to Mr Schneider, 60 per cent of the first 13,000 to sign up volunteered the information that they were joining to back Mr Corbyn against those who want him out, although there is no requirement for applicants to give a reason for joining. He also claimed that a large number had made their applications via Momentum’s web site.
It's far easier to destroy than to create.
But every act of creation is first an act of destruction, non?
Time to leave it for a while.
Noted, why don't you stay. I'll go. Its pointless if any discussion is too one sided
jambalaya - Member
Ernie, if delivering third to the Tories in Scotland...
Actually we love Corbyn up here, but he has one vital flaw. He does not support Scottish independence.
No other Labour leader would have done any better .
He is seen as one of the few honest politicians in the Labour party. He is not personally a liability to Labour as far as we are concerned, but independence is our priority.
Late to the game, but did this ever get posted from Private Eye? Seems relevant.
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No other Labour leader would have done any better .
Yes, from a Snp perspective he's great. Making them the only credible opposition.
Jambayla, Nifan's etc...if Corbyn is so bad why would you be hoping he leave?
Logic would say that as Tory supporters you would be encouraging him to stay (since you think he's so bad) to ensure he makes your party look good....very odd your stances don't you think? 😀 ....
It's a bit like the boy in the playground being mean to the girl because he fancies her...although I don't think you fancy JC, I think you fear him for someone who has the potential to upset your world...
An opposition is important. Otherwise the ruling party can take the piss.
The tories could reinstate conscription and invade France and they'd still be more electable than labour right now.
Now @5thelephant...you're surely not being serious there...if you fear your parties choices why vote for them..?
I didn't.
Ah, crossed communication. I thought you were talking on behalf of Jambayla etc , not as a concerned opposition.
It doesn't matter who you voted for or who's in charge, you still need a credible opposition.
you still need a credible opposition
What do you suggest - that Labour paint some appealing lies on buses and drive around getting gullible folk to vote for them?
What do you suggest - that Labour paint some appealing lies on buses and drive around getting gullible folk to vote for them?
as opposed to vague promises written in stone?
Lies it is, then. Hurrah for politics.
Some would say there is a credible opposition right now since JC appears to be getting everyone's knickers in a twist (membership is not falling for example)... he's challenging the neo-liberal order and people clearly feel agitated by it...
The SNP have made a good fist of being a real opposition. But it would be nice for the official opposition to put in an appearence at some point.
I genuinely think that Dave telling Corbyn 'for gods sake GO!' With some degree of passion at PMQ's was provoked by him going AWOL during the referendum. He was basically saying "when it came to helping out in fighting the more mental, out-there, rabid fringes of the Tory party, and the fruit loops and racists of UKIP, on such a massively important issue, you couldn't even step up and do that!"
A feeling shared by quite a lot of people, myself included
A feeling shared by quite a lot of people, myself included
Then you have to address the question of why Labour voters matched Scottish voters in their choice to Remain, whereas Cameron's lot did not. Cameron has nobody to blame but himself.
Did you not get the memo?
We're leaving the EU.
I know... mad, Eh?
Corbyn - the leader of the opposition (apparently) was AWOL for the whole campaign. Maybe if he'd put in an appearences at some point, the result may have been different.
He obviously had some more pressing, important things to do, instead of HELPING PREVENT US BEING DRAGGED OUT OF THE *ING EU!!!!! THE *ING STUPID, SELF-INDULGENT, USELESS BEARDY PRICK!!!!
