Jeremy Corbyn

teamhurtmore - Member

many a true word spoken in jest

Why would it be said in "jest"? 😕

Anyone who's read my posts on the subject would know that until Corbyn became leader I was one the most outspoken critics of the Labour Party on here.

I have clearly stated that from 1995 until 2015 I did not support the Labour Party. I very recently commented, on this thread actually, that I feel hugely uncomfortable about voting Labour and only do so because "it's the right thing to do", not because I want to. I certainly don't trust the vast bulk of Labour politicians - the ones I do are just a small minority.

What's that got to with whether the Guardian cares or is committed to the Labour Party ?

There is no evidence that the Guardian has any commitment to the Labour Party, as you seem to suggest. 6 years ago it was urging its readers to vote LibDem not Labour, and in past decades it has supported the SDP and the Liberal Party - in direct opposition to the Labour Party.

In contrast Corbyn has been tirelessly supporting and fighting for the Labour Party for decades. As far as I am aware he has never supported any party other than Labour.

In contrast Corbyn has been tirelessly supporting and fighting for the Labour Party for decades.

Truly said in jest. Masterful.....Much funnier than ninfan's joke!

EDIT : Actually I'll leave that typical THM patronizing comment ^^ without a response.

Whoosh

Don't get all serious on us now Ernie. Your humour is much better at just past midnight...

(and I had to drive tonight so am sober as a judge. )

Edit for edit: shame....

In contrast Corbyn has been tirelessly supporting and fighting [s]for[/s] the Labour Party for decades

FTFY 😉

Ernie I was making my own point that Corbyn and the Corbyn-istas are very different from what they claim to be.

6000 reported is meaningless - I could report your post to the mods - it is not reflective of anything meaningful

All sides have racist nobbers and sexist
Only a moron or a RW extremist could argue that it is not the RW who are most associated with racism and sexism [ or tradition if you prefer] than the Left wing. Its a view utterly at odds with the facts hence why its your view

Is this still going on? Jeepers!

Ernie / Junkyard I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability, and I want you to know that we are with you

Is this still going on? Jeepers!

My thoughts exactly. When will Corbyn see his position is utenable. He doesn't have enough MPs to form a working shadow cabinet even picking those like him with zero experience of a (shadow) ministerial role

Is this still going on? Jeepers!

Yes apparently we have to wait until just before the two Labour Party conferences to find out which unsuitable candidate is chosen. bizarre isn't it? At least the nasty Tories get it over and done wih quickly"

Ernie / Junkyard I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability, and I want you to know that we are with you

I feel for the poor dead horse, enough flogging by now surely. Let him rest in peace. Cruelty...

I wonder how Sadiq Khan feels about all this?

Well given that he kept a handy barge pole with him during his entire campaign, just in case the beardy one showed up unannounced, I doubt his opinion has changed much for the better.

*awaits Ernie posting a picture of them both within the same postcode to show some kind of comradely solidarity*

Jamba - what I was referring to was the tripe being posted by you and your ilk and the patient well thought out rebuttals from Ernie and Junkyard.

😀

What ilk is that then TJ?

True - there is no one quite as divorced from reality as jamba! ( maybe the invisible THM) But its the rightwingers who neither grasp the issues nor have any insight.

[b]BLASPHEMERS!!!!! [/b]

😀

so very
unoriginal
and
boring

What special 'insight' is that then TJ?

the patient well thought out rebuttals from Ernie and Junkyard.

yes but
ant
and
dec

I feel for the poor dead horse, enough flogging by now surely. Let him rest in peace. Cruelty

Essentially this thread , ith the odd exception DAzH for example , is just RW troll bots stating they dont like left wingers and then clutching at tenuous straws to "prove" their bias- oh and THMS side splitting funny jokes
Its not a debate its not even pretending to be one as a glance at any page will show
I suspect the mods only allow it as it keeps all the usual suspects in one place

Jamby moaning about racism is priceless though
I might moan about spelling or copying and pasting 😉

binners - Member

Well given that he kept a handy barge pole with him during his entire campaign, just in case the beardy one showed up unannounced, I doubt his opinion has changed much for the better.

*awaits Ernie posting a picture of them both within the same postcode to show some kind of comradely solidarity*

You mean this one ?

[img] [/img]

Well here is another, different time different place same "postcode" apparently.

[img] [/img]

I'm amazed that you still maintain this completely made up nonsense binners that Sadiq Khan was well known to Londoners and that they didn't vote for him simply because he was the official Labour Party candidate.

Most Londoners knew absolutely nothing about Sadiq Khan other than Cameron said he backed terrorists and that Corbyn supported him.

[url= http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/04/pmqs-david-cameron-brings-up-sadiq-khans-extremist-links/ ]PMQs: David Cameron brings up Sadiq Khan’s extremist links[/url]

[b][i]Jeremy Corbyn delivered his best performance as leader of the opposition today, questioning David Cameron on why all schools will have to become academies. He skilfully exploited Tory splits over the issue. The relative silence from the Tory benches did nothing to shake the impression that this is a policy in trouble; which is a pity given that too many local authorities continue to exert a negative influence on education.

But the most heated moment of the session came later when Cameron started talking about Sadiq Khan having shared a platform with extremists. When Cameron said that the Labour candidate for Mayor of London had shared a platform nine times with Suliman Gani – who has said awful thing about homosexuals – the Labour benches became outraged. Someone shouted ‘racist’.[/i][/b]

Of course they might of also heard Lord Sugar's claims that Sadiq Khan "single-handedly ruined" the Labour Party :

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/lord-sugar-launches-blistering-attack-on-sadiq-khan-for-single-handedly-ruining-labour-a6998211.html ]Lord Sugar launches blistering attack on Sadiq Khan for single-handedly ruining Labour[/url]

[b][i]The billionaire businessman accused Mr Khan of being personally responsible for wrecking the Labour Party as Lord Sugar branded the City Hall favourite and Jeremy Corbyn the "Laurel and Hardy" of politics.[/i][/b]

The problem is that anyone who doesn't happen to share your view is accused of trolling. There's no debate because your position is unsustainable and you know it and you fall into the category of just repeating ad nauseum your navel gazing left wing mantras that failed so spectacularly in the 1970s and 1980 and are now history.

The thing is I am or was a centre left Labour voter (sometimes Plaid)and I don't see anything about JC that would ever convince me to vote Labour again - he is breathtakingly naïve (his comments about honouring NATO treaty obligations last week must have had Putin rubbing his hands in glee - I thought Kevin Pork was a work of fiction but perhaps not as is now JC/Momentum policy).

I want to be convinced but generally being accused of not having some sort of mythical insight is quite offensive. So come on - convince me.

Nipper, it's not hard to see who is the keener (desperate?) to suppress debate here and jn the real world and why. But how can you have serious debate when the subject matter is so ridiculous? That's why it's important to retain a SoH. Has the Frimge ended yet?

Still given the proximity of Sadiq and Jezza shown in Ernies nice photos this might be interesting

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37146729

But it is from the biased BBC and so probably the quotes are made up completely.

NIpper - I wasn't referring to you as I made clear. I haven't seen your posts on this thread due to not reading all the pages so I don't know if you understand the issues or not.

Still given the proximity of Sadiq and Jezza shown in Ernies nice photos this might be interesting

"21 August 2016" That is a considerable period of time [i]after[/i] the London mayoral election 🙄

.

TopTip (because it pains me) "But it is from the biased BBC and so probably the quotes are made up completely." Sarcasm works best when it is actually funny.

Even more time to form an opinion then Ernie. Is he a fan?

Nipper - have you had your understanding checked first before entering the thread? You may not qualify... 😉

Even more time to form an opinion then Ernie. Is he a fan?

So he's joined the plotters and is no different to 80% of Labour MPs, where's the surprise ?

And what has that got to do with binners ridiculous claim that Sadiq Khan won the mayoral election because he was opposed to Corbyn?

Did Londoners all have crystal balls that could see what Sadiq Khan would be saying on 21 August 2016 ffs?

Sadiq's comments where published today by the Observer so we can discount them as they where (delete as appropriate) from a Blairite/Red Tory/Biased Media

Corbyn has made it his life's work to disagree with the Labour Party. As such I am not remotely surprised to see how this is panning out. Saddened yes but not surprised

So he's joined the plotters and is no different to 80% of Labour MPs, where's the surprise ?

There is none. He has been much closer to Jezza than either of us and formed his own opinion.

And what has that got to do with binners ridiculous claim that Sadiq Khan won the mayoral election because he was opposed to]Corbyn?

Nothing, why are you bringing it up? Khan made his comments today. As you said, the mayoral election was quite a while ago.

Nothing, why are you bringing it up? Khan made his comments today. As you said, the mayoral election was quite a while ago.

You're even dafter than I thought.....it's YOU who brought it up and tried to connect the two ! 😆

Still given the proximity of Sadiq and Jezza shown in Ernies nice photos this might be interesting

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37146729

Indeed, they have close experience of each other - daft I know - and hence, as historians might suggest, a source who might have current and interesting insight. And back to what he said (or is reported to have said 😉 ) any comment or just "no surprise"?

The problem is that anyone who doesn't happen to share your view is accused of trolling

Corbyn has made it his life's work to disagree with the Labour Party.

FFS stop making shit up

This is what I call trolling -its patent nonsense

Its reasonable to say he has not always agreed with the leadership, that he has been a rebel , sometimes on the fringes of the party or something factual the evidence supports but that is risible gibberish of the lowermost order as per from him.

I don't see anything about JC that would ever convince me to vote Labour again - he is breathtakingly naïve (his comments about honouring NATO treaty obligations last week must have had Putin rubbing his hands in glee

Yes the only thing stopping Putin right now is what Corbyn says and now he will invade Poland or something...good point well made 🙄

I do agree that JC does say some daft things as he is not good at soundbites and the media then misrepresent what he actually said to mean something he never said. FOlk then swallow this then claim its true - its like the EU repeat the lies often enough and folk just start believing it even when its not true - unelected bureaucrats being a great example

Ok... So I'm theoretically willing to entertain the notion that JC's detractors may be correct..

Maybe they're not terrified of the positive effect that Corbyn's political ideologies will have on society, and maybe they're not spouting claptrap in an effort to derail his cause..
(I actually doubt this very much, and happen to believe that they and their supporters are morally reprehensible spineless toads with ugly agendas)

But what we have certainly been gifted with in JC, is a legitimate protest vote for the silent majority that are finally being stirred into action..
The proposition that there could be an alternative to the greed and corruption of the establishment..
Whilst there hasn't been much point in anyone with nothing to lose engaging with politics for the last few decades.. suddenly the silent majority, the real working class, have been shown a glimpse of something more palatable...

Stuff your moronic middle class canutes worrying about their annual car upgrades, and stuff the rabid right wing moaning about imaginary immigrants taking their imaginary jobs...
The silent majority see right into your blackened cry-baby souls, and are ready to give you the little push required to tip you over the edge... To gently herd you into the abyss and consign your outdated sense of pride and esteem to the history books where it belongs

The evolved are about to stand up

Of course I would prefer world peace but i'm not naïve enough to think it can be achieved. As the first duty of government is the defence of the realm .......

Ernie, they are the before photos.

The approved version now looks like this:

[IMG] [/IMG]

(For those of you who don't get the context: http://www.tc.umn.edu/~hick0088/classes/csci_2101/false.html )

theauthorities - Member
so very
unoriginal
and
boring

what was
the name
of
your previous
log in?

(By the way, you're trying a little bit too hard at the silly ee cummings-esque mode of typing. I'm sure it's all part of your new nom de plume's 'character' but it's very silly.)

yes it's very silly..

The esteemed tastemaker CFH has decreed it so you must cease immediately 🙄

what a dick

As the first duty of government is the defence of the realm .......

We should invade a few more countries as well just to be sure

I think Sadiq must read the forum. He's just set the record straight of what he thinks of JC. 😆

CFH - There's one missing character I can think of who had a unique typing style and a deep seated hatred of 'the authorities' 😉

what a dick

Ouch. That like really hurts my feelings, man.

you have no feelings as clearly evidenced by your choice of footwear

I think if JC, or OS, managed to get Daesh around a table and to call a truce I would be impressed and might change my viewpoint about his idea of world peace.

I would contribute to funding his trip out to the middle east to see them, and also any funeral arrangements.

Imagine if a corbyn supporter had said this about a Jew or a lady?

he is breathtakingly naïve

I keep reading this and it's an incredibly lazy, patronising and pessimistic argument. Naive about what exactly? That international problems can't be solved without killing thousands of people and laying waste to whole countries? That social problems like poverty, crime, exploitation and hopelessness can't be tackled? That the status quo can't be challenged? This is exactly what the labour party was setup to do. If it's naive to think any of this then maybe that explains why the labour party establishment is having such trouble resisting Corbyn and his followers.

Of course I would prefer world peace but i'm not naïve enough to think it can be achieved

I thought I was pretty far along the scale of nihilistic cynicism so thanks for re-adjusting my boundaries.

This is exactly what the labour party was setup to do

Given that the Labour Party won six general elections prior to Blair, and never managed to achieve any of those laudible goals, don't you think that a belief that Jeremy can succeed in doing so is somewhat naive?

1 [i][b]“I would want to avoid us getting involved militarily. I want to achieve a world in which we don’t need to go to war.”

2 “My view is that, ultimately, all solutions to these international crises do come about through dialogue, so eventually if we are to try to solve this all of the actors do need to be involved. But at the moment Isil are clearly not interested in negotiating. At some point for us to resolve this, we will need to get people round the table.”
[/i][/b]

Two quotes from two people. One quote caused outrage the other one was brushed under the carpet.

It's impossible to know which quote caused the outrage without knowing which quote is attributed to who.

But here's a clue. Suggesting dialogue with Putin is tantamount to treason whilst suggesting dialogue with ISIS is well, you know......sometimes you need to talk to people you don't really like.

Given that the Labour Party won six general elections prior to Blair, and never managed to achieve any of those laudible goals

beveridge report never happened and was certainly not implemented.

No, it was never fully implemented, I agree (flat rate contributions for example)

Just think, when they planned the NHS, they thought that it would get smaller as people got healthier 🙂

ninfan - Member

Just think, when they planned the NHS, they thought that it would get smaller as people got healthier

They didn't.

[i][b] "We shall never have all we need. Expectations will always exceed capacity. The service must always be changing, growing and improving - it must always appear inadequate" [/i][/b]

- Nye Bevan, Labour Health Minister, June 1948 (2 weeks before the NHS was founded)

Churchill's commitment to creating a welfare state was limited and he and the Conservative Party opposed much of the implementation of the Beveridge Report, including voting against the founding of the NHS.[8]

The Labour Party won the 1945 general election on a platform that promised to address what the Beveridge report called "the five giant evils" of society: Want, Disease, Ignorance, Squalor, and Idleness.

never managed to achieve any of those laudible goals

@ yunki - who exactly are the 'real working class'- I don't even know what that phrase means. I know lots of people who work hard for a living and aspire to improve their lot in life and I come across lots who can't be arsed. I also come across lots who would like to be able to get to the former position but need a helping hand to so (I would count myself in that last group in terms of being able to get easy access to tertiary education as a mature student). I didn't think of myself as a member of any particular class before hand or since. I do see a class people who are happy to be ignorant and wear their ignorance as some badge of honour - is that the 'real working class'?

@ dazh - as I mentioned above, my contempt for JC and his ilk are that they allowed Thatcher free reign and to transform society to what it is today. To think you can unpick that is naïve because its not what people want - it would be like pretending something like the enlightenment didn't happen (not that i'm comparing Thatcher to the enlightenment - pick the major societal event of your choosing). The best that can be hoped for is to curb the worst excesses of a lurch too far to the right - see Rawls justice as fairness if you like (Amazon workers on zero hours contracts sleeping in bus shelters because they wouldn't be able to get to work on time otherwise and don't want to risk losing a days pay but I bet the 'real working class', who ever they are, tap away online buying their shit from Amazon). As to JCs views on humanity see EDM 1255 in the 2003–04 session of Parliament. Sadly, many thousands of years of human history show us to be quite an unpleasant species and we might wish it was otherwise but its not - think Hobbes and the life of man in the state of nature etc.

my contempt for JC and his ilk are that they allowed Thatcher free reign and to transform society to what it is today.

Yes, definitely, no effective opposition - they didn't oppose her because of socialist naivety and daydreaming and a public fed up of being held hostage by what was perceived (and was) weak labour governments being undermined by overweening trade unions.

I get your point - weak opposition helped her deliver her agenda- however its still the fault of those who did it and not those who opposed it.

Actually its not the left that let thatcher in. It was splittists from the right of the labour party forming the SDP and splitting the leftwing vote. something some of the gang of four have regretted ever since.

so yes this could well be history repeating itself as the right of the labour party are going to be responsible for greater periods of tory rule by damaging the party.

Which is doing more damage to the labour party. corbyn or the right with their constant undermining of him? You know - the daily press releases etc all aimed at causing maximum damage. Stuff like Alexanders piece in the guardian the other day where she outright lies about her motivations.

Genuine question, if a government has a majority what can the opposition do?

Labour couldn't stop Andrew Landsleys NHS changes going through despite Miliband being ahead in the polls and the party united behind him. Bedroom tax etc

It seems like people want Corbyn to look a certain way and would be happy if he scored the odd point in PMQs.

Which is doing more damage to the labour party. corbyn or the right with their constant undermining of him?

Noted but if the opposition had got their act together it might have been one term rather than the rest - all that was achieved was the split and the SDP and that should tell you something about peoples wish for moderately left of centre party.

@tj agree completely the PLP are weakening Labour by their behaviour. They are giving the Tories sticks to hit Corbyn with!

Brexit was a complete Tory **** up and Corbyn is being blamed for it!

Yes - the SDP and the liberal democrats are irrelevant todays politics with almost no representation and a small % of the vote. The blame for The thatcher yeas rests firmly on the shoulders of those who split the left - and that was the gang of four.

Revise history all you want. It does not alter the facts.

I'm amazed that you still maintain this completely made up nonsense binners that Sadiq Khan was well known to Londoners and that they didn't vote for him simply because he was the official Labour Party candidate.

where's your evidence for that - Sadiq was regularly featured in the Evening Standard and I think has a column in it as well. That's a pretty popular paper in London and it's stories are often echoed in the Metro the next day, which is also quite popular.

Even though the standard was pro Goldsmith Sadiq was given pretty equal covergae I reckon.

Revise history all you want. It does not alter the facts.

Horses and mouths spring to mind all of a sudden

Ctk, google givernment defeats - its not unknown.

Blame for Brexit needs to be laid at many doors.But don't forget that by his own admission that was Jezza doing his best. So the level of the bar has been set quite clearly.

But the revisionist approach to the rise of the Ernie's poster girl is quiet something and illustrative of the "it's never our fault" brigade.

The blame for The thatcher years rests firmly on the shoulders of those who split the left - and that was the gang of four.

By that token, you could argue that the blame lies with those who made life intolerable for the gang of four: all that militant tendency stuff, de-selection and dragging the Labour party to the left.

EDIT: I think this really may well be one of the daftest threads I've seen for a while on STW, but that's not necessarily a negative.

tjagain - Member

Actually its not the left that let thatcher in. It was splittists from the right of the labour party forming the SDP and splitting the leftwing vote

Hmmm, Thatcher became PM in 1979, SDP formed in 1981. Not sure how this is possible.

if a government has a majority what can the opposition do?

The 'right' has 170+ MPs, so it would be Corbyn.

But the revisionist approach to the rise of the Ernie's poster girl is quiet something and illustrative of the "it's never our fault" brigade.

FWIW ernie has been consistent in disagreeing with the cult of personality over the iron lady and the lefts focus on her, even your cheap slur has no basis in fact...like you care.

What % of the party agree with Corbyn and disagree with the MPs

Hmmm, Thatcher became PM in 1979, SDP formed in 1981. Not sure how this is possible.

Revise history? Then you can alter the facts to suit 😀

I do find the obsession with the party odd.

I did not realise that constitutionally all that mattered was what the Mps think - perhaps you can reference that in labour party articles?
Anyway we were discussing who harmed the party have you looked at the polls as to where they were before the Mps decided to ignore the party and try unconstitutional shenanigans to rid them of the leader?
Perhaps you wish to sidestep that one as well
Lets be honest their obsession with votes - from either the labour party or the wider election is not exactly bearing fruit is it.Obviously that is someone else fault.

No winners here but dont pretend Mps are blameless here.

No winners here but dont pretend Mps are blameless here.

labour party members only represent a small percentage of the people that voted for the MPs - the MPs 'mandate' is wider than just labour party members.

I did not realise that constitutionally all that mattered was what the Mps think - perhaps you can reference that in labour party articles?

The MP represents those that voted for them, they are the elected voice for them so that is what matters...

so yes this could well be history repeating itself as the right of the labour party are going to be responsible for greater periods of tory rule by damaging the party.

I thought you didn't want the Blairite cuckoos in the Labour Party anyway

The Sadiq Khan interview pretty much sums up what the majority of people have (hardly surprisingly) concluded. And that all poling backs up. That Jeremy is a well-meaning, decent bloke, with a lot of firmly held beliefs that most people would support, but.....

He has found himself woefully out of his depth as leader of the opposition. This was glaringly apparent in the EU referendum. And with the best will in the world, he hasn't got a cat in hells chance of winning a general election, and in fact if he is at the helm at that point tge Labour Party will be decimated

Are we not all liberal democrats:

The Liberal Democrats exist to build and safeguard a fair, free and open society, in which we seek to balance the fundamental values of liberty, equality and community, and in which no one shall be enslaved by poverty, ignorance or conformity

I am! And so's my wife!

So how's this Cooperative Party idea going to work? Will the cooperate?

Are we not all liberal democrats

He has found himself woefully out of his depth as leader of the opposition

its a real shame some sort of compromise could not be reached as its its evident he is going to win again, change the NEC and then beat them to death with his new - possibly higher?- mandate from the party

they will still continue to do this i imagine and continue to blame him for their refusal to follow him or the party

Its a ****ing mess basically and all sides should be looking for some sort of peace deal. At the moment they are digging trenches, and as this thread proves, the RW are loving it and the only real winners here.

I think something had to change in the Labour Party. Members knew it and wanted it, nobody wanted to have another 5 years of so so opposition with Cooper or Burnham or Kendall. Corbyn offered a change and smashed the election because he stood for something and had ideas and policies (yes he did)

Its a massive **** up now and I blame most of it on the plotters. I am not blind to Corbyn's failures but until a better option presents itself I'll stick with him.

I think most folk will see the plotters to blame - especially a they keep on lying in the press and Corbyn is not making public criticism of them in the same way. One thing the public hate above all else is public disunity in political parties.

As I have said labour tried to be all things to all people for a couple of decades now - steadily losing vote share until they lost 2 elections in a row.

the problem is the anti corbyn lot are psychologically unable to accept they are in the wrong as it would mean admitting to themselves that ditching their idealism was wrong and that they have wasted a large part of their political careers.

Alexander for example refused to stand alongside the junior doctors in their strike - a strike that had the support of the majority of the public. How much stronger would both the labour party and the doctors have been if we had seen the entire PLP on the picket lines?