Jeremy Corbyn

The EU superstate BS again, more pedalling fear

Ever closer political union...

A, probably significant, portion of that vote would have been against the numbers caused by uncontrolled immigraton, not the races involved. Calling them all racists is disingenuous and maybe even just as bigotted as those that did vote on racist grounds.

The EU superstate BS again, more pedalling fear

Ever closer political union...

Anything to substantiate that? Don't tell me in pictures leaders have been seen to be 2mm closer together. My personal view? The world needs less borders not more

Ever closer political union...

Nobody has ever managed to articulate a sensible reason as to why this is so undesirable, given current global trajectories.

You two are on FIRE.

How is life in Australia and Tasmania BTW ?

The EU could have put Cameron in a winning position with a few meaningful concessions but they refused.

honestly man flu, red wine, single malt and archer....
honestly it's like leave is Archer without the fluke wins

edit - don't you just hate it when you hit it onto the next page

A, probably significant, portion of that vote would have been against the numbers caused by uncontrolled immigraton, not the races involved. Calling them all racists is disingenuous and maybe even just as bigotted as those that did vote on racist grounds.

As has been said before, it's not racist to be concerned about the effects of immigration. What is racist is to ascribe the major problems facing the country to foreigners, in the absence of any evidence that those foreigners are responsible. It is the choice of VL to make that the main issue in their campaign that leads me to describe them as racists.

So how many of them were willing to listen to the facts about immigration and look at the numbers and figures collected?

For * sake

dont you get it?

these people stopped listening to statistics and numbers and "facts" peddled by politicians [b]years[/b] ago, because they [b]know[/b] its all b**ks, they know that every politician, of every party, has repeatedly promised and served up a bowl of * and sworn blind to them that its ice cream.

They have been told by ALL the major parties for decades that the EEC was helping them - while they watched their factories closed and moved abroad. They witnessed places like Cadbury and Terrys, Ford and Renault, build new factories in Poland (etc) and close their plants here. ALL the politicians denied to their faces that this was happening, ALL the politicians told them that immigration was vital for the economy, while they watched their wages and conditions get worse, and thousands of Eastern Europeans and other immigrants arrive and get handed houses here - and all the time the politicians told them this wasn't happening either, although these people were living next door.

these are the people who already know that the "facts" being peddled were always going to be rubbish

What happened in this referendum was that people with a half decent lifestyle clung onto the greasy pole of remain, out of sheer fear of losing what they already had, while those who had nothing listened to the dire warnings of armageddon and said 'sod it, I've got nothing to lose, they're all liars, they've shafted us left right and centre, called us idiots and racists and bigots and not listened to us for years - * them all" and voted accordingly

"they're cutting off their noses to spite their face" say the sneering liberal intelligentsia - The truth is that half of these people are so sick of it all that they would happily steer this whole thing into the ****ing ground just to hear the screams of sheer terror from their bourgeoise overlords

For * sake

dont you get it?

these people stopped listening to statistics and numbers and 'facts peddled by politicians years ago, because they know its all b**ks, they know that every politician, of every party, has repeatedly promised and served up a bowl of **** and sworn blind to them that its ice cream.

the problem with facts is sometimes they don't support your view of the world.

The problem with 'facts' bring peddled by politicians is that they don't represent the day to day reality that these people are witnessing

If you're too stupid to know that 'facts' can't be, and aren't being, manipulated to suit the agenda of the politicians peddling them, then you probably deserve the vote less than the 'idiots and racists' that you're sneering down at.

The problem with 'facts' bring peddled by politicians is that they don't represent the day to day reality that these people are witnessing

Fine

keep ignoring them

sit happily with the tractor production figure 'facts' that you have read in the latest party leaders bulletin, and lose the next election

its fine by me 😆

ninfan - Member
Fine

keep ignoring them

It doesn't matter what the 'facts' are, it is the perception that influences people

Just what these people want - Righteous lefties sneering down their noses and telling them they're wrong, because thats worked so well for the Labour party over the last decade 🙄

Good luck at the next election 😉

It doesn't matter what the 'facts' are, it is the perception that influences people

POSTED 6 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST
ninfan - Member
Just what these people want - Righteous lefties sneering down their noses and telling them they're wrong, because thats worked so well for the Labour party over the last decade

Yay

OK then, the dark is scary, there is an army of killer spiders that I have sent over in giant bike boxes
On top of this we have smuggled hundreds of special magic virus containing midges into the UK....

maybe if the people spreading the rumours and half truths would get back to the truth then it would be a bit easier. Unless you like spreading right wing shit

Again, its fine, keep on the way you have been, feel free not to learn anything from what happened this week.

it really is fine by me 😀

It is I see, you like to push the lies about immigrants?

David Cowling, the BBC’s head of political research, in an internal memo…

“It seems to me that the London bubble has to burst if there is to be any prospect of addressing the issues that have brought us to our current situation. There are many millions of people in the UK who do not enthuse about diversity and do not embrace metropolitan values yet do not consider themselves lesser human beings for all that. Until their values and opinions are acknowledged and respected, rather than ignored and despised, our present discord will persist. Because these discontents run very wide and very deep and the metropolitan political class, confronted by them, seems completely bewildered and at a loss about how to respond (“who are these ghastly people and where do they come from?” doesn’t really hack it). The 2016 EU referendum has witnessed the cashing in of some very bitter bankable grudges but I believe that, throughout this 2016 campaign, Europe has been the shadow not the substance.”

It is I see, you like to push the lies about immigrants?

Ah, I disagree with you, so by my very nature I *must* be a racist.

You ought to try that one to mix it up a bit while you're out on the doorsteps telling people how stupid they are for voting out or not supporting Jeremy 😈

not at all but you seem to want to push on lies. I'll talk to anyone, never voted labour and no fan of Corbyn.
There are some good points out there..
The facts (actual facts) say immigration is a net benefit.
The facts that the reason people are not doing well is nothing to do with the EU
The facts that the very people promising to save them from the EU have no interest in them at all apart from on Thursday will become apparent
Hopefully
[img] [/img]
They have ****ed over a lot of people

The facts (actual facts) say immigration is a net benefit.

[i]There was a statistician that drowned crossing a river... It was 3 feet deep on average. [/i]

very true stoner but when educated (perhaps) people continue to stir up racist hatred for their own purposes it stinks

I was rather lazily trying to bridge the chasm between the "facts" of net migration and ninfan's "on the ground" experiences of the proles.

Both are more-or-less true statements. But there has not been the political honesty by any of our leaders to admit it. And it's broader than just leaders, it is a fault of establishment and the metropolitan/cosmopolitans that are described in the BBC research chaps memo.

At a higher, bureaucratic, level still, the European leadership and their default siege position when criticised over the weaknesses in the European plan has left the door open for many to want to reject the whole plan. If at any stage in the last three years the likes of Shultz, Juncker and Tusk offered up an ounce of humility and a willingness to make concessions rather than stamp on doggedly, this could all have been nipped in the bud long ago.

How is life in Australia and Tasmania BTW ?

Given the mess people seem to have made of the U.K. in the past couple of days, the northern island is looking better and better. I'll let MWS fill you in on the Mainland, not been down there for a while, too frigging cold!

ninfan is quite right. Some of my best friends describe themselves as "working class" 😯 and voted leave for precisely those reasons. They see all around them shifting sands, the destruction of a country they had come have pride in and a perception that they had been left behind and that no one was speaking for, or listening to them.

They may be wrong or they may be right but it is not their fault.

The management of the European project has failed because of the incompetence of those who were meant to be steering it. A huge, if not the biggest task, was to carry it's Citizens with it. They seem to have failed and plunged us in to chaos and it is THEY who are to blame.

But there has not been the political honesty by any of our leaders to admit it. And it's broader than just leaders, it is a fault of establishment and the metropolitan/cosmopolitans that are described in the BBC research chaps memo.

Its nothing new of course

[i]“Most of our people have never had it so good”[/i]

They may be wrong or they may be right but it is not their fault.

Correct. But it is them who will suffer.

Really? Last I looked, they are not the only people living in the UK...

Tad elitist of you.

Corbyn was set up by Blarite PR company

"a single heckler shouts at Jeremy Corbyn at Gay Pride, and not only is that front page news in the Guardian, it is on BBC, ITN and Sky News.

"What makes a single individual heckling a politician newsworthy? ... this heckler, uniquely, is front page news and his words are repeated at great length in the Guardian and throughout the broadcast media."

"The “heckler” is Tom Mauchline, [b]a PR professional[/b] for PR firm Portland Communications, a dedicated Blairite (he describes himself as Gouldian) [b]formerly working on the Liz Kendall leadership campaign[/b]. [b]Portland Communications’ “strategic counsel” is Alastair Campbell.
[/b]
So far from representing a popular mood, Mauchlyne was this morning on twitter urging people to sign a 38 Degrees petition supporting the no confidence motion against Corbyn. [b]Ten hours later that petition has gained 65 signatures, compared to 120,000 for a petition supporting Corbyn. "[/b]

Quoted from
[url= https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/06/news-agenda-set/ ]https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/06/news-agenda-set/[/url]

[b]SAVE CORBYN
petition at[/b]

[url= https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/a-vote-of-confidence-in-jeremy-corbyn-after-brexit ]https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/a-vote-of-confidence-in-jeremy-corbyn-after-brexit[/url]

Over [b]184,000[/b] signed so far and rising rapidly.

Really? Last I looked, they are not the only people living in the UK...
Tad elitist of you.

Didn't mean it to come across that way. However, I'll take some convincing that a factory worker at a car plant which may now move to the EU will suffer less than a white collar middle class worker who has far more social mobility.

I don't think it will be pretty for anyone, but I think it's fairly undeniable that it will hit the poor the hardest

The point is, ninfan, it may be true that this is a protest vote by those left behind. But voting Leave ain't going to change it. These are global forces, not European ones. Technology and globalisation have had a major impact on these people's lives.. Tell me how you think voting Leave is going to change it, except for the worse. I'll be honest, I can't see an easy solution, or indeed any solution, but the majority of Leave voters have been manipulated by a small core of ideologues and their resentment has been aimed at the wrong target. Sound familiar? I mean, by Christ. Ebbw Vale votes leave, despite being a massive recipient of EU money. Just how dumb is that?

I like Corbyn and think he would make a smashing next door neighbour. He also stops the labour party from being electable. Which is nice.

Who would make Labour electable?

I think Corbs should be given a fair crack of the whip by his party (never mind the media)

Benn funny on Marr saying:

Brexit vote must be followed through because democracy.

Corbyn must be kicked out never mind democracy.

If you look at the global reaction to Brexit, it is pretty clear that this is the UK's Trump moment. A lot of unhappy, confused and angry people have lashed out at the world in a way that makes no rational sense whatsoever.

[quote=imnotverygood ]A lot of unhappy, confused and angry people have lashed out at the world in a way that makes no rational sense whatsoever.

Given time, the remainers will accept things.

Given time, the remainers will accept things.

Blimey 9 months ago I bought Jezza at 475 days in a fit of optimism!!!

Then able to sell to ro5ey at 490 pretty quickly.

He might last 475 days! What was I thinking?

The point is, ninfan, it may be true that this is a protest vote by those left behind. But voting Leave ain't going to change it. These are global forces, not European ones. Technology and globalisation have had a major impact on these people's lives.. Tell me how you think voting Leave is going to change it, except for the worse. I'll be honest, I can't see an easy solution, or indeed any solution, but the majority of Leave voters have been manipulated by a small core of ideologues and their resentment has been aimed at the wrong target. Sound familiar? I mean, by Christ. Ebbw Vale votes leave, despite being a massive recipient of EU money. Just how dumb is that?

A lot of unhappy, confused and angry people have lashed out at the world in a way that makes no rational sense whatsoever.

You mean they disagreed with you. You are just sounding like a bad loser. Just like the youth voters complaining the oldies robbed them when part of the reason for the result was the low turnout among young voters.

So who said voting never changed anything?

ctk - Member

Who would make Labour electable?

Bizarre isn't it. All this effort for the last year to kick out their leader but nobody has the slightest idea who they'd want to replace him. Imagine if the day John Major was kicked out, the Tories had looked around and gone "Hmm. How about whotsisname? Oh he doesn't want the job? Whatsername? Oh she was 2nd last, last time... That guy with the funny name that's spent the last year stabbing everyone in the back? Yeah, he'll inspire trust..."

Still say the same thing, the only thing making Corbyn unelectable is the Labour party. The whole party is just on the piss. But maybe that's in keeping with current day politics 😆

It makes no rational sense because an area like Ebbw Vale will now not get the EU grants it has been receiving. Those voting Leave have no real answer as to how they are practically going to make things better. Making things worse because your life is already bad is not rational. Sorry.

What I'm hearing from disaffected Labour MPs is basically "we need a godlike figure who the proles will blindly follow, Corbyn ain't it."

And its true I suppose. Until Labour sort out their direction the only hope is a personality big enough that policies don't matter.

it may be true that this is a protest vote by those left behind

No, I don't think its as simple as a protest vote - I think its actually a cry out for representation because Labour (in particular) left these 'White working class' people behind.

We keep talking about the 'Blairites' but in many ways it misrepresents the problem, its the 'Islington set' and oxbridge PPE that surrounded them that rotted the party from the inside with gesture politics and thinking that words and presentation are more important than gesture or deeds. Corbin and Abbott are as guilty of that as Balls and Kendall. Labour became the party of the public sector rather than the party of the working classes. The unions did much the same, led by politicians who played politics with the lives and jobs of their members in an attempt to prove a point or overthrow the government, rather than represent them, all living in a London bubble, "the working class can kiss my arse, I've got the foreman job at last"

IMO one of the worst crimes over the last few years is that the Labour leadership increasingly lumped together the 'working classes and the 'benefits cases' as if they were the same, in need of charity and pity - they fought to protect their benefits rather than fighting to provide them with jobs. They mossed the fact that these weren't people who wanted to sit on their arses or work in minimum wage jobs subsidised by benefits, they were people who were hugely aspirational and wanted better for themselves and their kids.

Thats why the Tory/Blairite agenda of aspiration and hard work appealed to them - It didn't rob them of their pride like the Miliband and Corbynite anti austerity agenda, and you only need to see how many of them hate the "beer and fags and benefits" estate types that the Labour party seem to find it impossible to criticise.

I could list a similar, much longer list of criticism of where Thatcher and the Tories went wrong. But I grew up in a Labour household with a dad who was a factory electrician and union shop steward who worked his bollocks off to give us good things, and a mum who was an office manager in manufacturing sector and then the civil service. My mum is the classic example of a lost Labour voter, she has seen her area and her community torn apart under both Labour and the Tories - but there's only one of the two she feels bitter about. She voted out.