Jeremy Corbyn

Turner Guy that is exactly how our business is run every one gets paid the same and shares the bad times.

doesn't have to be all paid the same, just somewhat equitable. For instance if you spent 9 years going through education and funding yourself, and then contributed a lot to the company because of those skills, or worked long hours, then you need to get some payback, or be able to get it.

Conversely if you want to slack off and not contribute so much because of different work/life priorities, then you would be rewarded less.

The next issue is how to manage that distribution equitably and fairly, maybe some new form of HR is needed for that.

I think it might be a while before binners makes his maiden speech from the floor of the House of Commons.

Indeed comrade. And I've about the same chance of becoming PM as the bearded messiah

He was on a walking holiday.

Reminiscent of Gordon "Macavity" Brown sometimes isn't it? 😉

When looked at as a marginal cost issue, yes there is a benefit to GDP but it is small.

On the contrary, its important. Immigrants come here to work (and study). They fill gaps in the supply of labour and hence contribute positively to economic activity and the income that supports our services. Without them out income would be lower and our ability to fund services reduced. On top of that, they have low demand for health and welfare, despite what the xenophobes would have you believe. Plenty of academic research/data showing that EEs go back home for medical care.

Its shameful to blame them for issues in the housing market too.

Yes the issues can be resolved but the speed of change is faster than the response which means that people experience the squeeze on capacity long before it is eased.

No its not. The impact was grossly exaggerated by the Brexit BSers. But its much easier to blame Johnny F than accept responsibility ourselves.

Perhaps this explains why despite throwing everything at it they have had far less success than they might have hoped for. It seems that there's probably just too many dumb, gullible, and naive people in the world,

FTFY

binners - Member

And I've about the same chance of becoming PM as the bearded messiah

Hey, don't try to run before you've learnt how to walk. No suggested PM...... MP was what was suggested.

See if you can hold onto an inner-city constituency for over 30 years before you consider your next move. Although in your case a leafy middle-class suburb without any deprivation and staggering levels of inequality might be more appropriate.

I can imagine you connecting with posh middle-class people like yourself better. Despite your protestations of being some sort of working class hero who despises the middle-classes 🙂

THM, is all immigration equal though?

Would you accept that there are clear issues in the economic and social effect of immigration from different areas? For example between longstanding and and Accession EU countries, or between immigration from, say, different African countries.

Its ridiculous to suggest that you can treat all immigration as if it was the same or of equal value or impact to the UK economy.

No, correct, its not all the same and there is always a danger in dealing with issues at too macro a level and vice versa (fallacy of composition)

Research notes that immigrants from EU make a higher contribution in ST and LT than immigrants from elsewhere so the Brexit BS about we prefer immigrants from the former Commonwealth was disingenuous.

Not sure what Corbyn believes - he's caught as the red UKIPers are a problem that might need to be placated!!

In fact Corbyn's opponents are united behind a man who claims to share almost identical views to Corbyn. Remarkably he wants everyone to believe that he is possibly even more radical and left-wing than Corbyn. He wants a "socialist revolution" I kid you not.

And that's why Smith has no chance of winning. Because members can see that in a perfect demonstration of Blairite strategy, his supporters have simply adjusted their supposed 'principles' to suit what is tactically astute at this point in time. I find it amazing that even a year on, Corbyn's opponents still completely fail to understand his appeal, or what the membership, and I would suggest a good proportion of the voting public, are actually looking for in their political representatives.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jeremy-corbyn-campaign-launches-fact-8613441

😀

Would have been better to say the attempted coup has harmed the party as the gap was narrowing and it was getting neck and neck

I know what they mean but guilty of spin

I know what they mean but guilty of spin

...but it's effective. Few people would have read the CorbynFacts site without a "mistake" to draw media attention to it.

Mind you, not sure drawing attention to the site really helps him - I'd have thought it was more an 'underdog' tactic and he's miles ahead.

outofbreath - Member

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jeremy-corbyn-campaign-launches-fact-8613441

😀

There's nothing misleading about claiming that Labour and the Tories were neck and neck in polls before the attempted coup by the New Labour clique. They were.

The Mirror in an attempt to support Owen Smith have decided to completely change the narrative and talk about the poll averages since Corbyn was first elected leader instead.

And [u]that[/u] is misleading. The whole point the website was obviously making was that as time progressed and the public got to know Corbyn better support for Labour grew to the point that the Tories lost their lead, some polls were actually putting Labour ahead.

With still another 4 years to go to the general election that was a very healthy development for Labour. All that changed when the New Labour clique launched their seriously damaging attack on the Labour leadership.

That's the point they were making. The attempted coup [i]was not[/i] launched because of poor Labour polling. Even actual election results were showing growing support for Labour, much to the fustration of the Blairites.

I haven't read the website but if that's the best 'criticism' that Owen Smith's supporters can come up with it's very reassuring. It shows just how pathetic they they are.

EDIT : It's amazing that even though it was just a couple of months ago some people are already attempting to re-write history. And probably with some success - I'm sure that many people have already forgotten that the Tory lead had disappeared before the attempted coup was launched.

Presumably that's the point of this new website.

There's nothing misleading about claiming that Labour and the Tories were neck and neck in polls before the attempted coup by the New Labour clique. They were.

😆

That's funny because it's right ?

Well I can think of funnier things but then humour is a very personal thing.

Research notes that immigrants from EU make a higher contribution in ST and LT than immigrants from elsewhere so the Brexit BS about we prefer immigrants from the former Commonwealth was disingenuous.

you have to blame EU expansion there though - nobody gave a toss about immigration from EU15, rumblings started with gradual expansion of those rights through A8 and A10 but the straw that broke the camels back for the referendum had to be A2 immigration.

There's nothing misleading about claiming that Labour and the Tories were neck and neck in polls before the attempted coup by the New Labour clique. They were.

He's back:

[IMG] [/IMG]

In other news, it looks like Dave Nellist might be back soon too 8O. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/far-left-figures-ready-to-rejoin-labour-k582ls5gj

That's funny because it's right ?

I've posted my evidence that Labour were not neck and neck before Brexit in the link above.

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/new-poll-shows-cameron-less-popular-than-corbyn-for-first-time-a6974891.html ]Jeremy Corbyn more popular than David Cameron for first time, new poll reveals[/url]

[i][b]"In November, he trailed Mr Cameron by 40 points. He now leads him by two, thanks to his gently rising popularity, and a dip in the PM's approval rating."[/i][/b]

That was one of the principle reasons why the plotters felt they couldn't hold back any longer and had to make their move - the longer Corbyn stayed as leader the more his support grew.

With another 4 years to go to the next general election and the dramatic change which had occurred in just 5 months, the plotters knew that Corbyn's "gently rising popularity" would eventually make it impossible for them to act. Although they should have acted much earlier anyway.

Isn't it funny how when people like binners, ninfan, and now outofbreath, can't think of anything to say they just sneer and laugh ?

Well I find it funny anyway.

And it makes me feel smug 🙂

According to Britain Elects, who maintain a rolling average of all national opinion polling undertaken in the UK, the last time Labour were neck-and-neck in the polls was in April 2015, a month before the last General Election.

So, not a fact then.

Although in your case a leafy middle-class suburb without any deprivation and staggering levels of inequality might be more appropriate.

A lot like Croydon then?

Does Binners need to check his privilege?

What is the index of multiple deprivation for your little enclave?

I can imagine you connecting with posh middle-class people like yourself better. Despite your protestations of being some sort of working class hero who despises the middle-classes

You mean his local and could talk to local people about local and national issues without talking down to them

Come on Binners you need to get on the list for PPC's

Its shameful to blame them for issues in the housing market too.

Is what I posted shameful? Please explain as I am obviously a thick northerner and need you to explain what I should be ashamed of in what I posted.

They fill gaps in the supply of labour and hence contribute positively to economic activity and the income that supports our services.

What about where there are no gaps in supply and all they do is drop the value of the labour? How does the model work when there are no controls? Or do you wait to wages are so low and living costs so high the "pull" factor has gone?

Isn't it funny how when people like binners, ninfan, and now outofbreath, can't think of anything to say they just sneer and laugh ?

Well I find it funny anyway.

And it makes me feel smug

I posted my evidence that Labour were not ahead in the polls. I've nothing to add to it but her it is again:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jeremy-corbyn-campaign-launches-fact-8613441 <

"Labour has won an appeal against a High Court ruling that allowed new members a vote in its leadership contest."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37057589

I still can't see Smith winning.

I can imagine you connecting with posh middle-class people like yourself better. Despite your protestations of being some sort of working class hero who despises the middle-classes

#prolierthanthou

What about where there are no gaps in supply and all they do is drop the value of the labour? How does the model work when there are no controls?

"In November, he trailed Mr Cameron by 40 points. He now leads him by two, thanks to his gently rising popularity, and a dip in the PM's approval rating."

yes, that's because Corbyn has learnt to keep his mouth shut and hide his socialist/marxist tendencies and hope that he will get in by stealth as most most voters don't notice what they are voting in.

Have a look at @estwebber for some cringeworthy stuff from Sunderland.

Oh, and Nige with a tache.

TurnerGuy - Member

"In November, he trailed Mr Cameron by 40 points. He now leads him by two, thanks to his gently rising popularity, and a dip in the PM's approval rating."

yes, that's because Corbyn has learnt to keep his mouth shut and hide his socialist/marxist tendencies and hope that he will get in by stealth as most most voters don't notice what they are voting in.

Oh they're so clever these Corbyn socialist/marxist types........keeping their mouths shut eh ? I can see that no one can pull the wool over [i]your[/i] eyes. I only come here for carefully thought out political critiques like that.

Presumably it also required the press and the rest of the media, as well as Corbyn, to keep their mouths shut about his socialist/marxist tendencies for people not to know about them ? I can't say I had noticed that.

But anyway Corbyn's cover has now been blown by this geezer who wants to replace him and who talks about the need for a "socialist revolution", that's why his support has fallen.

Everyone now knows about Corbyn's socialist/marxist tendencies thanks to Owen Smith, the man who claims to be every bit as left-wing as Corbyn.

Well that makes a lot of sense.............every day's a school day, as they say.

yes, that's because Corbyn has learnt to keep his mouth shut and hide his socialist/marxist tendencies and hope that he will get in by stealth as most most voters don't notice what they are voting in.

You hate corbyn we have all got this stop trying to twist the facts to make it evidence for your bias, that is jambys job on here- THM has bagged "politically neutral right winger" why not go for frothing loon right winger...its quote well contested and you seem a natural

There's some brilliant comments on the Guardian's website following the court of appeals ruling, here's a couple :

[i][b]This is the most excruciatingly stupid,counter productive and asinine behaviour. In a way,it's almost impressive.[/b][/i]

and

[i]

[b]This judgement, apart from ignoring contract law which is as clear as a bell, will simply make Corbyn supporters even more determined, and I personally know of many people who would not otherwise have voted for him now doing so because they feel it is even more important not to be defeated by the twists and manipulation by the NEC.

This is now becoming a de facto fight for democracy, no matter which party or leader you prefer. What the NEC does not grasp, and nor do the PLP, is that every chicane and hurdle they present, they are just storing up more resentment and determination.[/b][/i]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/12/labour-wins-appeal-against-ruling-allowing-new-members-a-leadership-vote

I couldn't agree more. The New Labour faction are so totally clueless, and they've proved this from the start of their attempted coup, that they appear to be primarily motivated by pure and simple panic.

I can't understand it as there are a lot of pretty intelligent people among them. It seems that ever since they completely misunderstood the mood of their own party and they nominated Corbyn they have been gripped by panic.

This panic appears to have increased massively since it's dawned on them that they have irreversibly lost control of the party after years of total control.

Rationality and panic don't mix well.

This ruling will benefit Corbyn enormously, although knowing the sort of person he is he won't have wanted it. The PLP and their friends on the NEC will now have alienated the majority of party members even more, and Corbyn will almost certainly win anyway! So what was the point ffs?

After Conference and the new members have taken their places on the NEC the New Labour faction will have completely lost control of the committee. The New Labour faction will have lost in every conceivable way.

Andy Burnham appears to be one of the few who has acted rationally and hasn't panicked, unsurprisingly he still seems to have a future in the party.

Just to add

After Conference and the new members have taken their places on the NEC the New Labour faction will have completely lost control of the committee

And we now have a legal judgement that the NEC can make the rules up as they go along.......brilliant ! Well done the Bitterites, as John Prescott likes to call them.

Well done the Bitterites, as John Prescott likes to call them.

And they have the cheek to say Corby is incompetent. From where I'm standing Corbyn and his supposed ragtag bunch of student lefties are running rings around what's supposed to be a slick, efficient political machine.

I posted my evidence that Labour were not ahead in the polls. I've nothing to add to it but her it is again:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jeremy-corbyn-campaign-launches-fact-8613441

Those pesky evil right wing media nazis.....

Oh. Actually.....

This judgement, apart from ignoring contract law which is as clear as a bell,

😆

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2016/817.html

Apparently Corbyn is strong on defence, and was right on Iraq. Just a shame he was wrong on Kuwait and the Balkans.

CaptainFlashheart - Member

Those pesky evil right wing media nazis.....

What a particularly silly comment from someone who always struggles to make an intelligent contribution.

The Daily Mirror has its own agenda. It doesn't support Corbyn, something which it is perfectly entitled to do. And which is hardly surprising from a newspaper that with the exception of the Iraq War enthusiastically supported New Labour. The Daily Mirror has always been close to the Labour parliamentary/political elite

Another point of view expressed in another newspaper :

Sunday 27 March 2016 10:07 BST

The former deputy prime minister under the last Labour government argued that the leader’s internal opponents were “gutted” that some recent poll results were improving for Labour.

He accused the unnamed MPs of briefing against Mr Corbyn and said they were trying to harm the party’s poll lead by stoking up negative stories.

“The main Bitterite MPs – whose only ‘skill’ seems to have been press spokesmen for Blair and Brown – want to drive down Labour’s standing in the polls and encourage bad results in this May’s elections.”

[b]Recent voting intention polls have shown Labour’s poll standing improving – with the party drawing level or just above the Conservatives in some surveys[/b].

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/john-prescott-says-bitter-blairites-are-trying-to-sabotage-labours-election-chances-a6954896.html ]John Prescott says some 'bitter' Blairites are trying to sabotage Labour's election chances[/url]

Of course you can accuse the Independent of lying when they say [i]"Recent voting intention polls have shown Labour’s poll standing improving – with the party drawing level or just above the Conservatives in some surveys"[/i] but even the Daily Mirror doesn't deny that claim, they would just prefer to talk about averages, because firstly, it includes very poor opinion poll results from last year, and secondly, it therefore suits their agenda to do so.

Although as I said previously you can forget opinion polls and just look at [i]actual[/i] election results - Labour managed to win local elections, by-elections, and mayoral elections. How did they manage to do that if they were trailing the Tories ?

And BTW John Prescott was Tony Blair's loyal deputy, he backed New Labour, he's definitely no 'Corbynite'. But he can see the patently obvious damage being inflicted on the party by Corbyn's opponents. And he appears to have some sort of commitment towards democracy within the party rather than feel that it's the sole preserve of Labour MPs.

Meh.

(I've been saving that one)

*Edit*

Just that. Meh.

🙄

Great Interview with the Messiah in todays [url= http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/13/jeremy-corbyn-tom-watson-talking-nonsense ]Observer[/url]. I'm sure they'll be distributing copies to every Tory Constituency Association so they can have it framed, then throw a ****ing massive party while dancing around, pointing at it in hysterical unbridled fits of glee.

The highlight, with regard to Tom Watsons letter:

[i]The Labour leader said: “I read about his letter to me in the media. And it appeared to be a rehash of a book Michael Crick wrote 20 years ago about alleged entryism into the Labour party at that stage.[/i]

Not big on irony, is he, our Jezza?

But then the Observer (and Guardian) as well as the Daily Mirror are all now apparently part of the 'right wing press'. Any bets on how long before the Morning Star also makes the list of Enemies of the Glorious Leader, issued from the bunker? 😆

watson seems to be following
in the footsteps
of someone else who blamed
everything
on trotskyite infiltrators
who?
oh yes
uncle joe stalin

But then the Observer (and Guardian) as well

They are barely even left enough of centre to be blairites at the guardian

binners - Member

The highlight, with regard to Tom Watsons letter:

The Labour leader said: “I read about his letter to me in the media. And it appeared to be a rehash of a book Michael Crick wrote 20 years ago about alleged entryism into the Labour party at that stage.

Not big on irony, is he, our Jezza?

Talk about "irony"

[img] [/img]

Tom Watson's letter, which alleges Trotskyite tactics today, uses unsubstantiated claims made by Michael Crick in a book 20 years ago!

The New Labour faction are living in the past. They can't understand why 300,000 new members joining the party, and remember they claimed they wanted to encourage people to join, aren't supporting the Labour establishment/parliamentary elite.

So they smear them by calling them Trots. Or claim that they are manipulated by Trots. Which is clearly both insulting and counterproductive. Their ham-fisted attempts to deal with a crises of their own making is as comical as it is deeply damaging.

One of the claims made is that these alleged Trots are deliberately making meetings boring (they've only just joined the party according to the New Labour clique and already they are chairing meetings and setting the agendas!)

That wasn't true 20 years ago and it certainly isn't true today. If only for the simple reason that the NEC suspended [u]all[/u] local party meetings a month ago! How can you have a boring meeting when you are not allowed to have a meeting?

The plotters are truly getting more and more desperate with their accusations and explanations as to why Corbyn is so popular....."boring meetings" LOL !

How about ...... "the majority of Labour Party members, long standing ones as well as new members, like what Corbyn is saying, and unlike most other politicians see him as a normal straight talking bloke with whom they can connect" ?

Right on comrade!

[img] [/img]

Hadn't seen this up till now - What happens when 'Team Jeremy" cold calls a former Labour SPAD 😀

Caller: Hi I am calling from Jeremy Corbyn's leadership campaign have you got a moment to speak.
Me: Oh yes.
Caller: Great. Have you made up your mind how you are going to vote in the Labour leadership election.
Me: No, not yet.
Caller: Oh. And why is that?
Me: Well... I like some of what Jeremy is saying. And I voted for him last time [a little white lie...] But I am very worried about the polls.
Caller: Yes I think Jeremy hasn't really had a chance to lead though.
Me: Sure, but what is his plan to turn things around in the polls.
Caller: Well there is a populist mood out there at the moment as we saw with Brexit and with Trump and the SNP and Jeremy is able to tap in to that.
Me: Really?!
Caller: Yes
Me: Trump?
Caller: Well in the sense that there's an anti-establishment mood and he is anti-establishment.
Me: Oh. But what kinds of things is he going to say to appeal to this mood? What's his approach to these people going to be?
Caller: Well he is anti-austerity.
Me: So he's not going to say stuff like Trump then?
Caller: Oh no goodness I didn't mean that he was actually like Trump!
Me: Sure sure. But what is he for then?
Caller: He is anti-austerity and...
Me: Yes that is true. But what is he for?
Caller: Well austerity is causing a lot of anger and is hitting people's wages and incomes and housing and he will stand up for them.
Me: Is being anti-austerity a new thing.
Caller: No he has always been anti austerity.
Me: Oh. It doesn't seem to be working. But also hasn't the Labour Party always been anti-austerity?
Caller: No Jeremy has changed that
Me: But didn't Gordon Brown in 2009 bring all the G20 leaders together and commit them all to a growth plan to get us out of the financial crisis rather than to all cut back. I thought Labour had been anti-austerity since 2009?
Caller: Well I don't remember that, but Ed Balls.
Me: What about Ed Balls?
Caller: Well he was arguing for cuts
Me: Isn't that what john Mcdonnell is arguing for?
Caller: No
Me: But hasn't john mcdonnell said he wants to have the same fiscal rule as Ed Balls?
Caller: I'm not sure but...
Me: I think they have both said that they want to eliminate the current budget deficit but leave space for borrowing for capital?
Caller: Yes but there is a much bigger emphasis on investment, john mcdonnell wants to invest
Me: What in?
Caller: Well in growing the economy
Me: Ok.. so by?
Caller: Well housing for a start - social housing not just so called 'affordable' housing.
Me: Ok. Has he got a target for how many?
Caller: Oh I don't know good question just let me have a look.
Me: Say 200,000 or so?
Caller: I... um...
Me: I only ask because it was in the 2015 manifesto you see so i'm trying to work out whether this is anything different...
Caller: Oh right. Well I think there's obviously more areas. Is there anything else you're worried about?
Me: Oh that's not a problem. Yes there was one other thing. I am Jewish you see, and I am very worried about all of this anti-semitism.
Caller: Yes. Jeremy obviously is against any form of discrimination.
Me: Well yes, I would expect that. But what is his plan to deal with the issue as a whole?
Caller: Well obviously Jeremy condemns anything like that.
Me: Ok.
Caller: Is there anything else?
Me: (arriving at the pub) No thanks that was very helpful.
Caller: Do you know when your nomination meeting is?
Me: Yes, thanks, bye

Tom Watson's accusations come from opening his eyes and ears and taking in what's going on around him. You only need to look at the twitter feeds etc of SWP and ASWP as they are actively encouraging [b]their members[/b] to register / join Labour and vote for Corbyn. Many of us here have made the same entryist remarks and I for one certainly didn't read Crick's book

We didn't say Corbyn wasn't popular, he is popular with a section of the party faithful, those from the hard left and those who where evicted from the Labour Party for example. Our point remains he is not popular with voters in marginal constituencies which Labour have to win if they are to form a Government. He is also a sitting duck on a huge range of issues which in an election will crucify Labour

Watson is a numpty who cannot admit he has wasted his political career. Of course their will be some entyists on the left - but Corbyn is massivly popular all over the left - huge increase in membership. huge mandate from the party at large. to think otherwise is simply bonkers and shows a willingness to ignore the facts.

As for marginal constituencies - how do you know?

The real entryists are the rightwingers who had taken over the labour party and taken it to a party of the centre right and who lost all the natural support of the party. People like Watson and Benn. They hijacked the party and are now facing losing control

The real entryists are the rightwingers who had taken over the labour party and taken it to a party of the centre right and who lost all the natural support of the party. People like Watson and Benn

Wait a minute there - Watson was democratically elected into post by the membership (plus registered and affiliated supporters) just like Corbyn was.

His mandate to stand up and say what he thinks is just as strong as Jezza's

Tom Watson's accusations come from opening his eyes and ears and taking in what's going on around him.

If that were true he wouldn't need to quote allegations made in a book 20 years ago.

I don't think reading what someone alleged 20 years ago constitutes "opening his eyes and ears and taking in what's going on around him".

.

We didn't say Corbyn wasn't popular, he is popular with a section of the party faithful, those from the hard left and those who where evicted from the Labour Party for example.

He got as many votes from Labour Party members as all the other candidates put together. You call that "a section of the party", everyone else calls it half the party.

"Those who where evicted from the Labour Party" don't come into it.

For all your protestations you are very clearly attempting play down Corbyn's popularity by claiming that it is restricted to the "hard left".

And everyone agrees that Corbyn will almost certainly receive support from the majority of party members this coming leadership election. Even with the ballot rigged in his opponents favour by excluding a quarter of party members.

Just "the hard left" supporting him ? Yeah right.

Hi, I'm from a marginal constituency and I voted Corbyn and will again. My mum joined the Labour Party to vote Corbyn and my dad is a long time Labour member and voted Corbyn. None of us has ever been involved with militant SWP etc nor are we in momentum. I know only a few more LP members all voted Corbyn, 1 will vote Corbs again the others I'm not sure. (none are LW entryists- not by a long shot!)

If you look at this thread there are more RW (cycnical) entryists than left wing entryists!

nor are we in momentum.

Does that matter? Is it something to hide/be ashamed of?

Tom Watson's comments are like a STW post frankly. Yes there are some "entryists", and some will be trots, former militants, all that. But they can only possibly be a drop in the bucket, for the simple reason that there's barely enough trots in the UK to take over your living room never mind the biggest political party in the UK. Watson's right to say there's evidence of entryism but he's blowing it ridiculously out of proportion.

I think objectively Corbyn's response is simple and rational- do the numbers. There's simply too many new members to dismiss them as headbangers as so many people want to do.

In the end, Corbyn's likely to steamroller the vote and all this talk of entryists will be as valid as it was last time; the goal only seems to be to undermine the perception of the vote.

What would Tom Watson know? Has ever been in a meeting with Jezza? Is he in the same party even?

He doesn't seem to be even listening or aware during PMQ and wasn't he airbrushed from the meeting photo records recently ("I don't think this is a good idea my old Wykehamist mucker"?)

he goal only seems to be to undermine the perception of the vote.

next part of plan innit, we've had briefing the Tory press, the MPs "revolt" and then this nonsense election. What's next; assassination attempt?

tmh, they didn't airbrush him from the shadow cabinet meeting. Corbyn asked Sky to stop filming and when they where invited back Watson had gone, he was excluded from the meeting.

Watson's career is going from strength to strength. He'll be around long after Corbyn has departed. As I've said before he's a powerful and effective campaigner for Hacked Off. Impressive speaker too.

What the "right wingers" did is get Labour elected for 13 years. What the left wingers are doing is ensuring that won't happen again.

Wrong again Jamba. The first Blair government was elected on a platform / manifesto built by Kinnock and Smith. Both centre left. The platform was fairly radical and all the truly left wing policies enacted were legacies from this time and from the time when conference decided policy.
Once Blair got control of the party machine and moved it to the right then vote fell ever election until they lost their majority.

Right wing labour has lost 3 elections in a row.

How odd. So lets see

1983 Foot - 28% vote, loss
1987 Kinnock - 31% vote, loss
1992 "we're alright" - 34%, loss ooops
1997 Bliar 43%, win - how did that happen? *
2001 Bliar 41%, win - again??? extraordinary

* and what was he promising in 1997?

In each area of policy a new and distinctive approach has been mapped out, one that differs both from the solutions of the old left and those of the Conservative right. This is why new Labour is new. We believe in the strength of our values, but we recognise also that the policies of 1997 cannot be those of 1947 or 1967. More detailed policy has been produced by us than by any opposition in history. Our direction and destination are clear.

The old left would have sought state control of industry. The Conservative right is content to leave all to the market. We reject both approaches. Government and industry must work together to achieve key objectives aimed at enhancing the dynamism of the market, not undermining it...

....We have modernised the Labour Party and we will modernise Britain. This means knowing where we want to go; being clear-headed about the country's future; telling the truth; making tough choices; insisting that all parts of the public sector live within their means; taking on vested interests that hold people back; standing up to unreasonable demands from any quarter; and being prepared to give a moral lead where government has responsibilities it should not avoid.

Britain does deserve better. And new Labour will be better for Britain.

Tony Blair

Anyone care to do a brief update on this thread? Is Jamba still posting opinion masquerading as 'facts'? Is Binners still posting long rants which are simply a regurgitation of pretty much everything else he's posted so far (plus some 'witty' images)? Is Ninfan still posting stuff with little or no relevance to this discussion (or any other, for that matter!)? Has Stoner actually put his money where his mouth is, and gambled his home on a massive tory majority at the next GE?

Has anyone actually posted anything meaningful, insightful or otherwise interesting? Or is it just a continuation of the same old shit?

It's just that it's a beautiful day, I'm fortunately not chained to a desk, and I'd rather be outside enjoying myself. 😀

Usual nonsense from the usual suspects.

Ernies posts are usually good value, Jambas for ther comedy value. THMs I don't see so I have no idea what level of nonsense he has posted 🙂

teamhurtmore - Member

1997 Bliar 43%, win - how did that happen? *

John Smith died and Tony Blair inherited the winning hand that Smith and yes Kinnock before him had built.

And tbh I think you know that. "Blair made Labour electable" is just part of the creation myth. Ironic really that in days of Corynists and Blairites, Labour needs Smiths- but they've all but forgotten him.

Anyone care to do a brief update on this thread?

Despite it being summer, the panto season has come early courtesy of HM Opposition. Very funny except for the fact there is a real job to be done.

Has anyone actually posted anything meaningful, insightful or otherwise interesting? Or is it just a continuation of the same old shit?

Jezza did say something new about a Bank for the North the other day and did seem to like Milton Keynes and our cycling teams - according to twitter - otherwise not really. Its all a bit regressive.

"Blair made Labour electable" is just part of the creation myth.

Of course because before he-who-cannot-be-mentioned came along, we were "alriiiggght...." everyone loved old Neil didnt they. He was a shoe-in....

"Jezza did say something"

No, I meant you and all the other frothers. I'm well aware of what JC is saying, I don't need this thread to keep up with that. 😆

Thanks Tjagain. The 'usual suspects' have ignored any questions asked of them, which isn't surprising. I was hoping to read what Jamba thinks about the rise in far-right anti-Semitism, but it appears he'd rather slag off Corbyn than engage with a genuine issue. Which sort of sums up this thread; loads of bitching and whining, keyboard warriors in a frenzy of froth, but no meaningful substance. OK. Thanks for the heads up! 😀

BTW - I do include myself in " the usual nonsense from the usual suspects" 🙂

No, I meant you and all the other frothers.

Really???? Did i miss that....'eck 😉

loads of bitching and whining, keyboard warriors in a frenzy of froth, but no meaningful substance.

Have you seen this then:

https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremycorbyn?lang=en-gb

@clod
this is
stw

@tj we all know we can't please all the people all the time and some of the people we can never please 🙂 pretty much everything I have posted in this thread has been a remark or is supported by elements of the Labour Party including pretty much 100% of the Labour hierarchy that have fought elections since the 1970's and 80's

As for our anti-racism campaigning definitely no anti-semitism in the party JC the leader .. we have 92% of Jewish Labour Movement supporters voting for Smith. 92%

Wrong again Jamba. The first Blair government was elected on a platform / manifesto built by Kinnock and Smith. Both centre left.

John Smith died and Tony Blair inherited the winning hand that Smith and yes Kinnock before him had built.

And theres me remembering all the fuss about Blair amending Clause IV, when it turns out that apparently this made [i]no difference at all[/i] in the 1997 election.

who knew?

State Banks. Having worked with and indeed for 9 months for state owned banks I can say in my experience there is not a worse combination that banks and political ownership. German State owned (amd thus tax payer guaranteed banks) where some of the worlds largest investors in US sub-prime. Remember their state charter was to support regional business in Germany, their action was to pile into truely toxic sh.t

For the 10th ? time feel free to read every single post of mine as

[imo]

[/imo]

Tony Blair was elected on Tony Blair's platform. Kinnock did the hard yards to get rid of [s]Momentum[/s] Militant Tendancy

Jamba - simply wrong. Even if its just your opinion its simply not true. He did not have control of policy making.

all this discussion
neglects
that
labour are far ahead
in the polls
and
would easily win an election held today

Margaret Beckett hits the nail squarely on the head

Ms Beckett said: “If what Jeremy is saying is that he is going to punish the General Secretary and staff for decisions that were perfectly and properly made, that seems to me [b]not like 'kinder gentler politics', but like bullying and spite."[/b]

She added: “It does seem to me that there is a risk of people around Jeremy and perhaps Jeremy himself, thinking that what matters is: ‘does he get the decision he wants' not 'is this what's right in law'.”

[url= http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/voting-intention-2 ]Far ahead, you say?[/url]

Is that a bit like "neck and neck" in the polls?

@theauthorities - what are you talking about Labour are 12 points behind and would be slaughtered. We have fixed term Parliaments now, thats the only reason the Tories aren't calling an election. The only mechanism for an early election is for them to lose a vote of "no confidence"

https://tompride.wordpress.com/2016/08/15/are-you-a-trotskyist-take-this-short-quiz-and-find-out/

imo

He did not have control of policy making.

What on earth is that even supposed to mean?

Its blatant revisionism to claim that Blair stood on a Kinnock/Smith policy manifesto - neither of them went anywhere near as far as Blair did in changing the direction of the party in order to make them electable

Get this right, Blair actually changed the constitution of the party in order to abandon one of the central tenets of Labour Party policy. "common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange"

How on earth was that just "inheriting" John Smiths policies?

Because thats the facts. the policy of the party at that time was made by conference. Not Blair. Blair later changed that but IIRC not until after his first win. Same as the first cabinet was appointed by vote at conference not by Blair.

Again IIRC this was not changed until after Blairs first election.

That's not my memory of it. The driving force behind the changes was Blair.
Here's an article from the time:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/defining-moment-as-blair-wins-backing-for-clause-iv-1611135.html

Indeed Blair did drive thru a lot of changes that pulled the party to right of centre - and clause 4 was before the election. But the bulk of the policies he was elected on were put together at conference not at his call and his first cabinet was people elected by conference not appointed by him. the changes took place over a number of years from 95 onwards.

From the labour parties own site
"This was followed in 1996 by the publication of New Labour, New Life for Britain, the draft manifesto that was discussed and [i]voted upon by party members across the country[/i].

Later on Blair took total control over the manifesto removing the need for it to be voted on by the entire party and allowing a further move to the right.