Jeremy Corbyn

"confusing - is there a spilt between the Guardian and its constituents too?"

Guardian readers often tend to be quite well educated and intelligent, and I think many are realising that the paper isn't quite as 'impartial' as it claims to be. I think quite a few are thinking 'hang on, why do so many Guardian writers seem to be so anti-Corbyn?', and questioning the paper's credibility. The Guardian will swing back round in more favour of Corbyn eventually; it can't afford to alienate it's core readership.

"No really..."

Yes, really. But you won't read about it in the Guardian...

Khan and Corbyn need to make up, I think. Khan could be Corbyn's best ally.

Corbyn, earlier:

[img] [/img]

Khan could be Corbyn's best ally.

Odd then that the Guardian has been bucking the industry trend in terms of readership stats and is still the most widely read broadsheet?

Perhaps (just) it knows its core leadership better than SWTers? Who knows....

But as an aside, what do you mean by impartiality? No paper is impartial, it just seems that the G is not partial to your point of view. Or maybe, like the FT, it publishes a range of different views....

The Guardian is blatantly and openly left wing, of course it is. And they are naturally anti-tory because of that. Doesn't make them pro-labour though - I was surprised to see the imbalance of Corbyn coverage.

Of course, it's a legitimate concern that moving (a bit) further left could damage the chances of getting a left wing government at the next GE, but why focus on that rather than the positives? Which are clearly there, if you are a leftie.

The Guardian claims to be 'impartial' and offers a platform for a wide range of views, but they actually tend to fall within a fairly narrow framework. And it's editorial staff includes people like Jonathan Freedland; a fairly innocuous and insipid commentator mostly, but definitely not that impartial (he's actually centre-right and pro-Israel/Zionism, which puts him at odds with Corbyn and the Left), then there's people like Polly Toynbee and many others; centre-right wingers who favoured Blair and are terrified of anything genuinely left-wing. Essentially, the powers that be at the Grauniad are generally centre-right neoliberals who hate the thought of Corbyn's Labour leaving them out in the political wilderness, as the party moves back towards the Left and rids itself of the Blairites once and for all.

who hate the thought of Corbyn's Labour leaving them out in the political wilderness.

Quite understandable, especially with the Tories getting into another Europe mess. The goalie has his eyes covered now too...its worse than watching Arsenal playing tiki-taka or whatever the inability to shoot and score is called...

The Guardian is blatantly and openly left wing, of course it is

BTL comments show a lot of disdain for its stance and a lot of the online Traffic is from RW trolls so they may be feeding them in order to generate revenue.

Either way its pretty poor these days. Even the sports coverage is getting ropey. Read the authors name and you can tell what it will be about - looks firmly at Jamie Jackson.

Perhaps (just) it knows its core leadership better than SWTers? Who knows....

There were many expecting the tories to move more towards the centre and sweep up the blairites - lots said it on this thread, but surprisingly they've dug their heels in on some pretty divisive policies over the past few months which must make that move very difficult.
I guess that leaves them even more focussed on trying to wrestle back the labour party.

I was a bit surprised that Khan came out so quickly against Corbyn after election - thought he might have played it a bit cooler.

The goalie has his eyes covered now too...its worse than watching Arsenal playing tiki-taka or whatever the inability to shoot and score is called...

Really if you're going to use football analogies, then you have to acknowledge that rather than tiki-taka, the labour midfield are currently tackling each other and arguing about who's fault it was, whilst their forwards stand around at the front waiting for long balls from the defence.

Junkyard - lazarus

Corbyn even though his supporters love. I agree he probably lacks a wide platform of electoral appeal and with the media and his own MP's after him its hard to see how he can generate it.
Sadly we need a leader who is "media friendly" and "presentable"

I strongly disagree, in fact I believe the complete opposite to be true. IMO the Corbynites most powerful weapon is rolling Corbyn out in front of the TV cameras, something they frustratingly don't do (or don't have the opportunity to do) often enough imo.

When it does happen he comes across as a genuine straight-talking incredibly sensible person who says exactly the sort of stuff that ordinary people are thinking, nothing like the person the media tries to portray, and very different from the sort of stuff that people have grown to expect from other politicians.

It is precisely these qualities which explains how his leadership campaign snowballed from nowhere to the point of defeating all his opponents put together, and giving him the largest personal vote ever in a Labour Party leadership vote.

The more people heard him speak the greater his support grew - and he's certainly no great orator, in fact he's a pretty crappy one imo. This has led his detractors to accuse him of being a populist - bizarrely after initially accusing him of being completely out of touch.

I have no doubt that every time Corbyn appears in a TV studio or is doorstepped by a TV crew Labour wins a few more votes. Which explains why the polls have gone from being devastating for Labour after Corbyn first became leader, to a few months later showing Labour and Tories neck and neck, or Labour even overtaking the Tories.

The more people get to know the real Corbyn as opposed to the one the media offers them, the more the support for Labour grows - they really need to get him in TV studios more.

Obviously THM won't agree because the Tory/right-wing narrative still likes to claim otherwise.

Corbyn is very popular indeed. Have you been to any meeting or rally he's been present at in the last few months? Even Blair could never have hoped for such popular support!

Niggle Farage is hugely popular at UKIP rallies - huge popular support, UKIP more popular than ever...

Just look at how it's transformed into electoral success!

tiki-taka or whatever the inability to shoot and score is called...

Has anyone told Barcelona?

No need Dr, they have quality in their team

edit - don't bother

I was a bit surprised that Khan came out so quickly against Corbyn after election - thought he might have played it a bit cooler.

Unless he fancies himself for the main job. But he won't be free anyway, will he?

TBH I'd like to be in a position to choose between those two.

@Alex - minimum wage and personal allowance rises have moved Tories towards centre ground - nearly 50% of working people will pay no tax at all. Agreed disability benefit cuts and working tax credits have been a mistaken proposal in last two budgets but overall they are safely occupying the middle ground.

Guardian is firmly left of centre, it doesn't support Corbyn as they know that if Corbyn is leader in 2020 Labour cannot win. Kahn just won an election so is well placed to comment upon what's necessary to do so as did Blair in the speech @ninfan posted.

Guardian is firmly left of centre

Its really not it supported the Lib dems in 2010.

Everything is to the left off you

Yep, even the ToryGraph is several miles left of Jambaland....

jambalaya - Member

Guardian is firmly left of centre

This is another of those fascinating "jambalaya facts".

The Guardian editorial of 30 April 2010 :

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/apr/30/the-liberal-moment-has-come ]General election 2010: The liberal moment has come[/url]

Quote :

[b][i]Citizens have votes. Newspapers do not. However, if the Guardian had a vote in the 2010 general election it would be cast enthusiastically for the Liberal Democrats.[/i][/b]

The Guardian fully, and enthusiastically, supported the LibDems after they had taken a dramatic lurch to the right under Nick Clegg's leadership.

The Labour Party, led by Tony Blair's chief economic policy decider Gordon Brown, was simply too "left of centre" for the Guardian.

I wouldn't call that very firm at all.

The Guardian has a long and shameful history of talking the talk but when push comes to shove being completely incapable of walking the walk.

It expresses heart-rending concern about social justice and peace to make its affluent middle-class readership feel better about itself but woe betide anyone who tries to upset things by actually changing the status quo.

STWers argue the t0ss, @Junky 🙂 as I said on a sailing forum (International but with a strong US bias) I hang out on I am one of the most left wing people on there, it's all relative really

I hang out on I am one of the most left wing people on there, it's all relative really

I could just about believe that if the only other two posters were Donald Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu, but otherwise, no way....

A newspaper that is proudly rooted [b]in the liberal as well as the labour tradition[/b]

From the horse's mouth - pretty clear.

Perhaps they are able to be a little more discriminatory than those tied solely to one party - Ernie's article suggests this to be the case. Tough concept to grasp I know..

STWers argue the t0ss

It's awful when you can't post any old bollox you fancy in the vague hope that it might back-up some point you're desperately trying to make without someone disagreeing with you.

I hate it when that happens - don't you agree ?

Btw "toss" isn't a naughty word when used in the above context, so no need to disguise it. It refers to tossing a coin - not having a ****.

Ernie its worse than that Swear filter avoidance is the crime [ and he ha clearly tried to avoid it] not swearing itself and I told him this the other day when he did the same thing with another word not on the filter.
I doubt he will learn

pretty clear

If anyone cares to read it rather than take a wee bit to mutilate the truth

I am one of the most left wing people on there

A newspaper that is proudly rooted in the liberal as well as the labour tradition

From the horse's mouth - pretty clear.

No one would argue that the Guardian never supports the Left/the Labour Party. Of course it does. Right up to the point when it actually matters. Then it's a question of left-wing principles can kiss our fat pontificating arse.

No one would argue that the Guardian never supports the Left/the Labour Party. Of course it does. Right up to the point when it actually matters. Then it's a question of left-wing principles can kiss our fat pontificating arse.

Still appears to be in mourning for Tony Blair, as far as I can tell. His money grabbing ideals really touched something with Polly Toynbee and she's not been the same since...

Sounds like so-many [i]so-called [/i]"socialists" then...

I hate it when that happens - don't you agree ?

After so many year's of experience - that still wrankles?!?

minimum wage and personal allowance rises have moved Tories towards centre ground - nearly 50% of working people will pay no tax at all.

teamhurtmore - Member

After so many year's of experience - that still wrankles?!?

Well that's what I said. So well done you for spotting it.

Given that we have (very) moderate centrist politics in the UK, why would any paper that wants to survive as a commercial enterprise position itself at any extreme?

The Guardian has been more successful than most in terms of readership, so that suggests they understand their target market reasonably well, however much that may grate....

Thanks Ernie, I love you ironic moments.... 😉

The Guardian has been more successful than most in terms of readership, so that suggests they understand their target market reasonably well, however much that may grate....

More successful than most in terms of readership? How many national newspapers can you name which have a smaller circulation than the Guardian?

And it is perfectly possible to read the Guardian without agreeing with its editorial line - I have for most of my life. Just read the letters page for more evidence.

Many people buy the Guardian for its extensive and impressive news coverage. No other newspaper imo matches it in that respect.

.

we have (very) moderate centrist politics in the UK

lol

Bearing in mind that we have a government whose economic, privatisation, trade union, and social spending policies, are all significantly more right-wing than the Thatcher governments of the 1980s, it's a reflection of just how right-wing you are THM if that's what you think.

"[b]Significantly[/b]"?

Stop it, there's only so much humour that one can taken in at any given time

But in the unlikely event that you really do think that the UK has extreme politics (now or in modern history)then you either need to travel or read more.

And it is perfectly possible to read the Guardian/any broadsheet without agreeing with it's/their editorial line - I have for most of my life

FTFY

teamhurtmore - Member

[b]"Significantly"?[/b]

Stop it, there's only so much humour that one can taken in at any given time

I'm sorry you don't think that privatisation of Royal Mail (Thatcher said that she wasn't prepared to have "the Queen's head privatised") or 40% of NHS England contracts going to profit-driven firms (Thatcher said "the NHS is safe in my hands", and in essence it was) or further trade union restrictions, or the benefit cap/attacks on disability benefits, etc, etc, isn't [i]"significantly"[/i] more right-wing than the Thatcher governments of the 1980s?

OK fair enough, I won't argue the toss..........it is just simply more right-wing than the Thatcher governments of the 1980s, but not significantly more right-wing....... if that makes you feel better.

By the way Thatcher was no moderate, you know that don't you ?

@Alex if that's the case then my misquote, was in an article a few days ago. I wouldn't suggest the Tories are abandoning their right wing credentials just broadening their appeal / voter base to fill the space being vacated by the Labour Party. Elections are won/lost over the centre ground in the marginal constituencies

I understand why posters here won't admit the Guardian is left wing as the paper is against JC the left wing Messiah. Well not really against just pointing out the blindly obvious.

45 days to go the Referendum and STW seems to have lost interest. Boris's speech today was very compelling (lifestream is a thing of beauty allowing you to make up your own mind rather than the sound bytes or newspaper/website commentary) and Cameron has totally lost the plot with his "Brexit means war" remarks. Never smart to make those comments knowing Boris would be speaking immediately afterwards allowing him to ridicule the argument with the "World War 3" jibe

OK fair enough, I won't argue the toss

Really?

In a global context, even your poster girl was a moderate - in reality Thatcherism was largely a myth - you have quoted her spending trends, fiscal deficits etc along with posting exhibits from your extensive and charming photo collection many times.

And look now, we label the Chancellor "Austerity George" despite the fact he is running one of the loosest fiscal policies in the developed world. That's how divorced reality and rhetoric are - but given how boringly moderate the UK is, hyperbole is required to make headlines.

When it does happen he comes across as a genuine straight-talking incredibly sensible person who says exactly the sort of stuff [b]that ordinary people are thinking[/b]

How wonderfully radical he sounds too - perhaps the looney left tag must be misplaced, eh? 😉

45 days to go the Referendum and STW seems to have lost interest. Boris's speech today was very compelling

But Boris Johnson only decided a couple months ago, presumably after considering what would serve his career interests best, that he was opposed to EU membership, for many years previously he never spoke in favour of leaving the EU.

[url= http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/6946293/BREAKING-Boris-Johnson-will-back-Brexit-campaign-in-EU-referendum.html ]Blond bombshell: Cameron rocked as Boris backs Brexit from EU.. telling PM by text just 9mins before going public[/url]

I wouldn't offer Johnson as a great anti-EU heavyweight, just a great self-serving careerist and opportunist.

I'm so glad I went for a bike ride...

THM - your defence of Thatcher and George Osborne is touching. Especially from someone who claims not to be a Tory.

How wonderfully radical he sounds too

That's not a contradiction. You can be both radical whilst saying what most people are thinking - because politicians have not given a toss about what most people actually want for decades.

don't worry, you are back in time to catch Jezza's more sombre conclusion about last week to be delivered to the PLP

But let's be clear. The results were mixed. We are not yet doing enough to win in 2020

As Ernie notes, he is remarkable at saying what ordinary people are thinking 😉

The labour grass roots are disgusted.

Defence? C'mon the humorous irony is much better than the old making it up stuff

I have often stated that Thatcherism was a myth and am regularly critical of Osbourne's rhetoric*. But I do understand that being so tied to one party, (UKIP tendencies aside) this notion must be very alien for you

*although in fairness - QE aside - he is doing some sensible things at odds with what he and his enemies are claiming, most notably running a relatively loose fiscal policy, spending more that he receives to compensate for the Balance Sheet recession that we are still in - he is such a radical don't you know...someone should call him Austerity George or something like that....

You can be both radical whilst saying what most people are thinking

Which is of course [i]precisely[/i] why Corbyn's opponents never want to talk about his policies.

They would much rather base their whole opposition to his leadership on the claim that he will represent an absolutely catastrophic electoral disaster for Labour, or more recently, that Labour just won't poll enough votes with him as leader.

They studiously, and very wisely, completely avoid ever talking about Corbyn's policies, knowing as they do that many people would agree with him.

So it works on both sides then?