Jeremy Corbyn

The meeting was in Ramsbottom, I believe. I moved there in 1984, it certainly had a very different character back then.

Town changing over a 30 year period shocka!

And as you know it, what would you say the chances were of an MP getting elected there on a pro Corbyn ticket?

Town changing over a 30 year period shocka!

Really? Just like everywhere else then.

Yes and no. There are plenty of other mill towns in East Lancashire that are still mired in post-industrial decline.

And as you know it, what would you say the chances were of an MP getting elected there on a pro Corbyn ticket?

Marginal at best.

I'd say that was rather over-optimistic, to say the least. And I was talking about Bury North generally, rather than our street.

I'd say that was rather over-optimistic, to say the least. And I was talking about Bury North generally, rather than our street.

It depends on what you mean by "pro-Corbyn", doesn't it? We know that many if not most people support policies he proposes, nationalising railways for example. It's not as if Corbyn is the communist he is made out to be...

No, the problem is that the Labour party lacks any credibility, so it seems to me that a candidate standing on an anti-Corbyn platform would simply re-enforce the well-founded notion that the Labour party is too riven by infighting to be let anywhere near power.

But as I pointed out, at the last GE the labour party missed out on the constituency (under Millibean) by a handful of votes. 12 months later under the inspirational leadership of Saint Jeremy of Islington and look at the state of the party. If there were an election tomorrow, David Nuttall (who has hardly covered himself in glory, to say the least) would win by a landslide.

With what they're planning - more pro-Corbyn MPs to replace the centre left ones, you see that improving?

And I can see is that being replicated in all marginal seats. All the polls say that. So... the result? A huge Tory majority.

Yay for Jezza and Momentum

Oh...sorry. They're just misunderstood, aren't they? Its all the right wing presses fault for being horrid to poor old Jeremy, and refusing to report on how devastatingly effective he's being against the Tories

Different question for all you old salts in this, if you can steer away from the general pro/anti Corbyn theme thats in place, and if you can be bothered answering.

I guess its an existential question: as a pre-req, can you ignore for the fact that we have an entity called "The Labour Party" or "New Labour" in any shape or form for a minute. Tricky to do, but you all have powerful imaginations and can hypothesis, so carry on.

The question for you is this:

-Is there still a place and, more importantly- a need- for a traditionally leftist party in this country?

'Leftist' can take many forms, but I'm really meaning the period immediately prior to Blair.

If you choose to answer, please try not to be pejorative or cling to stereotypes. I'm just wondering what you think.

Suggested themes would be along the lines of:
-its needed/not needed for balance
-its better/worse to have opposition thats in favour/against the current predominance
-etc

As said, existential.

If you can't be assed, thats fine too.

Arse.

FTFY.

But as I pointed out, at the last GE the labour party missed out on the constituency (under Millibean) by a handful of votes. 12 months later under the inspirational leadership of Saint Jeremy of Islington and look at the state of the party. If there were an election tomorrow, David Nuttall (who has hardly covered himself in glory, to say the least) would win by a landslide.

I've never thought Corbyn to be a particularly effective leader, but come on: the current state of the Labour party has much to do with the ridiculous infighting from people who ought to know better.

With what they're planning - more pro-Corbyn MPs to replace the centre left ones, you see that improving?

Oh...sorry. They're just misunderstood, aren't they? Its all the right wing presses fault for being horrid to poor old Jeremy, and refusing to report on how devastatingly effective he's being against the Tories

"Yourself and the Croydon Communist are certainly doing your bit to promote and highlight the more intelligent, and civilised, level of debate within the Corbynista ranks Clodhopper."

Oh do behave yourself. Intelligent and civilised? All you've done on this entire thread, is post deliberately inflammatory prejudiced bollocks. I've merely lowered myself to your level, because you aren't capable of debating at any level higher than kindergarten.

So you went to a Momentum meeting, and didn't once challenge anyone, or put your own views across? Really? At a Momentum meeting? 😆 Just proves you haven't got the balls to actually stand up, publicly, and put your own views across, and need the safety and anonymity of the internet to rant on about whatever jingoistic crap you chose.

"From buster bloodvessel's description, I would imagine that voicing "non deriguer" opinions at that meeting would have been like facing down The Donald at one of his performances.

Only more dangerous..."

😆

And 5thelefant can't tell the difference between Momentum members and actual nazis/ Let's help them out (as they are clearly politicaly clueless):

What Binners is scared of:

[img] [/img]

Absolutely terrifying, I'm sure you'll all agree. 😆

Actual nazis (can I use the term 'scum'?):

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Hope this helps.

"@clodhopper I have posted numerous personal examples on here before, direct experiences witnessed by myself and/or direct friends and colleagues."

Forgive me, but that's just your own account of things, you've yet to actually prove what you claim. And as you routinely post up clearly biased personal opinions, distorted facts, and sometimes downright untruths, I think even you will accept that people may well take your comments with a big pinch of salt.

Now, seeing as you claim to be so concerned about anti-Semitism, you might do better to direct your energies towards the very disturbing fact that a known far-right extremist xenophobic organisation has allied itself with Israel. given that we know, from the images above, that members of that organisation are avid proponents of Nazism, do you not think it might be better to concentrate instead on this, rather than waffling on forlornly about Corbyn and anti-Semitism?

[img] [/img]

ninfan - Member
'I would start with those who abstained from opposing austerity or the DWP measures.'
But that was whipped party policy.

You can't go in about 'loyalty' and then accuse people who followed LP orders of being Tories.

If they follow orders to abstain from opposing austerity etc, then that is being a Tory. If you have principles you will not follow the whip in such cases.

Who are they supposed to be loyal to? Their job is to represent the people and put them before the party and personal benefits. So I suppose that makes them gutless Red Tories.

I agree with epicylo. Voting to bomb syria and not voting against the austerity measures makes them unfit to be in the labour party.

Cody - in answer to your question yes. A proper left of centre ( and I don't mean hard left) party is needed in this country. We need redistibution of wealth. We need an end to nukes, we need a commitment to alternative energy.

We need a leader who can spell out these advatages and how they would improve the lives of millions of ordinary folk. We need someone to galvanise these folk.

Look to scotland - the left of centre parties - SNP, Greens assorted socialists but not including labour have well over 50% of the vote between them

Nobody's forcing you to stay. As before; you are free to go and join any party you like, which you feel best represents your own views and interests.

The mating call of the [s]militant [/s]momentum cuckoo. The nest is overcrowded Binners, time to kick you out.

Looking forward to when folk pretend the SNP are left wing next....

Codybrennan good question - I consider myself in the old salts slot born 63 started work 79 so I have seen the full range of post war politics more or less, I am from a working class trade union background. In answer to your question I believe we need a socially responsible political party however that does not mean I believe in wholesale nationalisation or a benefits system that deters people from seeking work. This party should promote a flat tax system for both corporate and income tax that ensures we can support our NHS and pensions systems - i dont belive in higher tax rates based on how much you earn as this leads to tax avoidance. It should invest in SME businesses and build social housing as fast as it can. Critical infrastructure like water, power should not be sold off overseas. The minimum wage increases as detailed by George Osbourne should be deployed to remove tax credits (which should ultimately be stopped as should child benefit) as most organisations can afford to pay the increased minimum wage (I view this as social responsibility) I could go on but my teas on the table..

Is there still a place and, more importantly- a need- for a traditionally leftist party in this country?

Stupid question. If you look at the the results of the flagship policies of the past 30 years, you'll very quickly come to the conclusion that many of them have completely failed:

- Privatisation: The first one was BT. I've just come back from Sri Lanka, a country decades behind the UK in terms of infrastructure and economic development, but I could get a 3g signal everywhere, but I can't in Hebden Bridge, a town halfway between the two biggest cities in the north of England. Energy privatisation has resulted in fuel poverty where people have to decide between buying food and heating their homes. And the less said about rail privatisation the better, which has been an utter disaster. And now we have the privatisation of the NHS, the result of which is hospitals near financial collapse, multi-day waits for a GP appointment, postcode lotteries on treatment, and waiting lists approaching 1980s depths.

- Deregulation of the Financial Industry: A raging success, not, considering they took us to the brink of financial collapse, and plunged previously prospering economies into depression, debt, and brutal austerity.

- Taxation: We now have a system where normal working people pay more tax as a percentage of their income than billionaires. Do I need to mention corporate tax avoidance? Amazon, Google, Facebook, Starbucks etc have profits in the billions, yet pay a few million or less in corporation tax.

- Employments rights: Zero hours contracts, Sports Direct etc. Need I say more?

- Social Mobility: Students leaving university now have around £40k worth of debt which deters a lot of working class kids. Anyone under 30 who doesn't have parents who benefitted from the property boom and pensions largesse now has no hope of buying a home. If you're not already from a family already financially comfortable, you've precious little chance of getting there yourself.

- Erosion of the Welfare State: Workfare, bedroom tax, persecution of the disabled and sick, benefit sanctions. All horrific stuff I never thought I'd see in my lifetime.

Need I go on? I haven't even got onto the corrupt influence on politics by corporations, climate change, the erosion of democracy, terrorism caused by reckless adventurist wars, reduction in real wages etc. So yes, I think we still do need a political party of the left who can act on behalf of normal people. The current problems in the labour party are that for a long time, and despite the wishes of their members and voters, they've not done this. Thatcher said her biggest achievement was Tony Blair. She was right.

Looking forward to when [s]folk[/s]you pretend [s]the SNP are left[/s]you are not right wing next....

"-Is there still a place and, more importantly- a need- for a traditionally leftist party in this country?"

More than ever. The delusion by several posters on this thread that mainstream politics is in any way 'centrist', is irrefutable proof of that. When posters are calling actual lefties in the Labour party 'cuckoos', when in fact it's the Blairites (I love how that term is now an insult, it deserves to be!) who are the cuckoos, shows just how clueless so many people are about what is actually left, right or centre.

But far more importantly; the rise in the the popularity of hard right parties such as UKIP (which ironically was formed by a former Liberal Eurosceptic but attracted hard-right tories and other assorted racists), and the rise of far-right fascist extremism in the UK and Europe, highlights the need for a genuinely left-wing party to be able to counter the dominance of right-wing politics, and get people to re-engage with the political process. Right-wing politics is all about divide and rule, and is ultimately undemocratic, as is extreme left-wing political ideology. So we need something around the middle, to form a good balance. At the moment, we don't have that.

And the inevitable reality is, that as a declining economic force, the UK will need to rely on 'socialist' systems of social organisation, if it is to survive as a nation. Things like the NHS, education and social welfare. Things the tories are desperately trying to get rid of.

"Codybrennan good question - I consider myself in the old salts slot born 63 started work 79 so I have seen the full range of post war politics more or less, I am from a working class trade union background. In answer to your question I believe we need a socially responsible political party however that does not mean I believe in wholesale nationalisation or a benefits system that deters people from seeking work. This party should promote a flat tax system for both corporate and income tax that ensures we can support our NHS and pensions systems - i dont belive in higher tax rates based on how much you earn as this leads to tax avoidance. It should invest in SME businesses and build social housing as fast as it can. Critical infrastructure like water, power should not be sold off overseas. The minimum wage increases as detailed by George Osbourne should be deployed to remove tax credits (which should ultimately be stopped as should child benefit) as most organisations can afford to pay the increased minimum wage (I view this as social responsibility)"

As I said; why we need a left-wing Labour party. Because we won't get any of the above from the tories!

and the rise of far-right fascist extremism in the UK and Europe, highlights the need for a genuinely left-wing party to be able to counter the dominance of right-wing politics

You don't really understand politics, do you 5thElefant?

Shame.

no you are nuts if you think genuinely left wing means extreme

no you are nuts if you think genuinely left wing means extreme

Clodhopper not sure all of my post would go down well with JC -
Flat 20% income tax rate? Regardless of earnings
Flat 20% corporation tax?
Scrap Tax Credits?
Scrap child benefit?
That's the centre bit of social responsibility

You don't really understand politics, do you 5thElefant?

Just ignore them as in the UK extreme right or left are tiny fringe parties. The majority of people in the UK are neither racist or Marxists. Which is why generally the UK is a nice place to live.

Aside: SNP are neither left or right they are nationalist, authoritarian.

Is it raining hard up North?

Need I go on

No but some fact checking would be useful

The delusion by several posters on this thread that mainstream politics is in any way 'centrist', is irrefutable proof of that.

Are you being serious?

But far more importantly; the rise in the the popularity of hard right parties such as UKIP (which ironically was formed by a former Liberal Eurosceptic but attracted hard-right tories and other assorted racists), and the rise of far-right fascist extremism in the UK and Europe, highlights the need for a genuinely left-wing party to be able to counter the dominance of right-wing politics, and get people to re-engage with the political process.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Which is why we DO have centrist politics in the UK. QED.

Right-wing politics is all about divide and rule, and is ultimately undemocratic, as is extreme left-wing political ideology.

Elements of truth at last

And the inevitable reality is, that as a declining economic force, the UK will need to rely on 'socialist' systems of social organisation

Socialism is required for a declining economic force???? That sounds like a great vote winner. Line up, line up...

Extreme left is extreme. Centre left is actually electable.

What about just left? Who decides what is extreme? The Sun? The Daily Mail? Tony Blair? Theresa May? Andrew Neil? Laura Kuensberg? Nick Robinson?

Sorry that's too many question marks 🙂

Voters?

I know, I know, they don't matter. But it used to work as an idea...

Dragon +1

Voters?

Be honest, do you really actually believe that?

EDIT: Actually in a properly functioning democracy, I"d agree, so I guess the real question is do you believe that's what we have?

Extreme left is extreme

There is nothing that falls remotely close to the term 'extreme left' in the UK, bar one or two very tiny groups (supporters in the low hundreds or even tens). Labour is traditionally a reasonably centrist left-wing party, and recently, a moderate right-wing party. Jeremy Corbyn is moderate centre left. I think you're getting all confused by Binners' nonsense about Stalinism and North Korea; he's only saying such idiot things for effect, he doesn't' actually believe them. 😆

"Clodhopper not sure all of my post would go down well with JC -"

Hmm. If taxation was applied fairly and effectively, there'd be no need for many forms of social welfare, such as tax credits. I think JC would go along with that.

"Are you being serious?"

I am, but you're obviously not, judging by your posts. 😉

"Elements of truth at last"

About tory politics being all about divide and rule? I'm glad you agree. It would be stupid not to, really. 🙂

Dazh I don't agree with you social mobility views or the no chance of buying a home if your under 30 unless your parents are minted.

There are new 2 bed houses 7 miles from me that are available for 117k a first time buyers needs a 5% deposit and the government will give a 20% equity loan leaving a sub 90k mortgage. That is virtually identical ratios to my first house in 1986 (except I needed 10% deposit) plenty of young Polish families buying them..... just depends how badly you want it oops been here before

No.. As I have said before this RW, LW stuff is bllx used by people who cant move on and who remain stuck in the politics of the last century.

It is amusing though. Like watching a Tyronosaurus versus a Stegosaurus!! I am waiting for talk of nationalising the commanding heights and prices and incomes policies next.

Meanwhile in the real world....

Correct clod. This whole issue is only noteworthy for its amusement factor. It has been a pantomime from the start before the Autumn reality TV schedule comes back. It is bloody funny though, except for the lack of a proper functioning HM Opposition. That is important but oddly forgotten about.

behind you.....

"Meanwhile in the real world...."

Do you actually know where that is? I see little evidence, on here, that you do.

Il looks like they might have been on to Binners:

[IMG] [/IMG]

There are new 2 bed houses 7 miles from me

Where's that then?

On social mobility, I can only judge it from my own experience. I went to uni in '93, got a full grant first year, half a grant second year nothing 3rd year, and left with 4.5k of student loans, but crucially didn't have to pay any fees. If I was a 17 year old considering my options now, higher education wouldn't be one of them.

If I was a 17 year old considering my options now, higher education wouldn't be one of them.

Which might well be the correct choice. That depends. My old man couldnt afford to go but it didnt stop him in life. He only went when he retired and then got a PHD!

At least now we have a system that allows: people to make informed decisions on whether it is a worthwhile choice or not; stops those who chose not to go/cant go from subsidising those who chose to/can go (tax on the poor); and might in time lead to top universities having a better chance of competing globally.

At least now we have a system that allows: people to make informed decisions on whether it is a worthwhile choice or not; stops those who chose not to go/cant go from subsidising those who chose to/can go (tax on the poor); and might in time lead to top universities having a better chance of competing globally.

Would it not be simpler to just tax the rich more not justvthose that get into uni whichvare not always the same? Top uni's do well globally dont they. If not why not get the tax payer to fund more if its important?

"At least now we have a system that allows: people to make informed decisions on whether it is a worthwhile choice or not; stops those who chose not to go/cant go from subsidising those who chose to/can go (tax on the poor); and might in time lead to top universities having a better chance of competing globally."

No we don't; we have a system that increasingly favours people who can afford it. Informed choices? You mean, people needing to consider the future economic 'value' of an educational course, rather than the education itself. Meaning we'll get less people studying things like arts and literature, and more people wanting to do business degrees (oh, look at how easy it is to get on an MBA course these days, if you have the money...). This will lead to certain faculties shutting down, as the private companies that will inevitably take over the running of universities if we continue with right-wing governments, decide they are 'uneconomical' (see also health care in the same framework). So we'll end up with far less diversity of education, which can only be a bad thing. As in politics, we need a healthy balance of different forms of skills, talent and knowledge, to complement a healthy democracy.

And as for universities 'competing globally'; our education system should be run for the benefit of society, not as a business.

stops those who chose not to go/cant go from subsidising those who chose to/can go (tax on the poor)

Tax on the poor? Really? By any measure education is an investment, one that both the public and private sector are completely dependent on. If it's a tax on the poor, why stop at higher education? Maybe we could exempt poor kids from education altogether and send them back down the mines and up chimneys?

binners - Member

Yourself and the Croydon Communist are certainly doing your bit to promote and highlight the more intelligent, and civilised, level of debate within the Corbynista ranks Clodhopper.

i can't see why anyone wouldn't be attracted to this gentler, kinder ethos you both so eloquently espouse

Well I am certainly prepared to engage in a "more intelligent, and civilised level of debate" binners. It's a shame that you are very clearly completely unable to do so.

Since this thread first started you have gone from enthusiastically supporting Corbyn to enthusiastically denouncing him.

The only thing which you been completely consistent with is that you always go out of your way to insult everyone who dares to disagree with you.

I can never be quite sure what your position will be, however I am always 100% certain that you will insult those who disagree with your preferred flavour of the month in the strongest way you possibly can.

Here are some examples :

binners - Member

But it does amuse me the labour cheerleading from Polly Toynbee and her ilk, sending us the view of what british politics looks like from Tuscany. Or from their 3 million quid Islington pads. It's apt really, as they're as clueless as the Labour Party for much the same reason.

It's no wonder they've come out against Corbyn. He's as terrifying and alien to them as someone northern, working class, or scottish. They like to stay in their nice, comfortable, upper middl class, bollocks-talking, London-centric metropolitan bubble, just like the Labour Party

binners - Member

If there's a leadership election tomorrow, these muppets will re-elect Corbyn. And they'll be really pleased with themselves. Because they're awful middle class lefties, who will stand by and moan about equal rights for one-armed, free range, organic hermaphrodite marriage, while the Tory party take a torch to workers rights
They are the very worst human beings on the planet

binners - Member

I've never heard such sanctimonious, superior, patronising drivel in my life

Along with describing me as one of very worst human beings on the planet you have compared me with the Taleban. You call me a whole range of what you obviously consider to be insults, the latest being the Croydon Communist - "3 quid" Trot now appears to have been exhausted. For the time being anyway.

Now I don't mind your personal insults, in fact I find it rather reassuring that you should feel the need to resort to them.

But I find it quite frankly fascinating how you can seamlessly throw insults with apparent gay abandon and talk about a [i]"more intelligent and civilised level of debate"[/i] in the same paragraph.

I'm sure that the irony of it all goes straight over your head. This is what happens when people submerge themselves in self-adsorbed rants - they don't stop to think about what they are actually saying.

Anyway, carry on...... 🙂

EDIT : Don't forget to post the "U OK Hun?" retort. Maybe a picture from a Monty Python film too

Darlington area multiple new housing estates- www.keepmoat.com prices from 78k

Big thanks to oldmanmtb, dash, and clodhopper for their answers to my earlier question.

FWIW, I agree.

teamhurtmore - Member

Looking forward to when folk pretend the SNP are left wing next....

Poor wee Hurtmore,in all this hubbub about the implosion of the Labour party people are forgetting how nasty the SNP are.

Darlington

Not exactly a surprise, but I would suggest that places like that are few and far between and not much help to the under 30s hoping to get a job in places where they actually exist. With all due respect to Darlington, if you have to move there to have a hope of buying a house then I wouldn't exactly call that social mobility.

Universities are effectively private and can shut whatever they want (and do). But they also receive vast amounts of government money. The problem is Labour wanted 50% of people to go to Uni and that costs, a lot. The number of students has roughly doubled or more since 1993 dahz.

If you don't have an undergraduate degree now then in many cases you'll struggle to get a decent job.

I see Dazh Darlington not good enough for the new left? You want to be able to buy a 78k house in Islington?

Actually there are plenty of good jobs in the area for under 30s (Aldi UK HQ Cummins Zyro EE etc)also good schools and outstanding MTB within a few miles (Hamsterley Swaledale north york moors) but hey if it's not good enough for the utopian dream

I've just come back from Sri Lanka, a country decades behind the UK in terms of infrastructure and economic development, but I could get a 3g signal everywhere, but I can't in Hebden Bridge, a town halfway between the two biggest cities in the north of England. Energy privatisation has resulted in fuel poverty where people have to decide between buying food and heating their homes.

The problem is that although the "sri lanka is cheaper and better" observation might be true that doesn't actually tell us anything about privatisation in the UK.

Taking the specific example of mobile phone coverage, the main reasons coverage until recently has been poor in the UK are two fold:

1. The Labour Government decided to extract around £23B in license costs for 3G - this had the exact effect of constraining rollout / capital spend on the networks that everyone said it would do

2. 3G coverage in the UK was licensed by the Government in the 2100MHz band which requires a lot more masts and is harder to get good in-building coverage with. One of the reasons lower / better wavelengths could not be used is they were already licensed for military, civil protection and TV use.

On a different KPI, we continue to enjoy some of the most competitive pricing for telecoms and utilities anywhere in Europe - the latter retail price is distorted by carbon tariffs, renewable feed in costs and such like but the fact remains that the "privatised" industries aren't always expensive or bad solely because they are accountable to shareholders.

If you don't have an undergraduate degree now then in many cases you'll struggle to get a decent job.

Hence my point. Having a decent job now requires either rich parents to fund their offspring through higher university, or the acquiring of massive amounts of debt.

You want to be able to buy a 78k house in Islington?

Not at all, but I'd suggest that the number of jobs in Darlington is insignificant compared to London, Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham, Bristol, Liverpool etc, where you haven't a hope of a 78k house that's worth buying.

Not really as you pay it back once you are earning over a certain threshold.

Ultimately though it is now an international playing field, so you don't have a degree then companies will look at someone who does from elsewhere.

On a different KPI, we continue to enjoy some of the most competitive pricing for telecoms and utilities anywhere in Europe - the latter retail price is distorted by carbon tariffs, renewable feed in costs and such like but the fact remains that the "privatised" industries aren't always expensive or bad solely because they are accountable to shareholders.

Not true, when compared to [u]wholesale[/u] cost we still pay more per unit than anyone in Europe.

Poor wee Hurtmore,in all this hubbub about the implosion of the Labour party people are forgetting how nasty the SNP are.

Hello duckie, how nice to hear from you. Misquoting again I see. Plus ca change.

Would it not be simpler to just tax the rich more

Of course AA, just tax people more. That's the spirit.

Tax on the poor? Really?

Yes of course. Everyone, including less well off people, paid for relatively well off kids to go to Uni. A regressive system that benefited the middle classes more than anyone else. Very kind of the less well off to invest in the future of the more well off.

The sitting Tory is your full on Hang 'em and flog 'em, rabidly anti-EU right wing nut job, who seems to be increasingly pissing off even the Tories, he's that insane

you clearly like him more than I do, I fail to see his redeeming features at all

You call me a whole range of what you obviously consider to be insults, the latest being the Croydon Communist -

you should wear your new badge with pride, as they say, if the cap fits, wear it

Not exactly a surprise, but I would suggest that places like that are few and far between and not much help to the under 30s hoping to get a job in places where they actually exist. With all due respect to Darlington, if you have to move there to have a hope of buying a house then I wouldn't exactly call that social mobility.

or you could live in Bury North, or Stretford, or many other areas catch the Metrolink and work and socialise in the centre of Manchester, or is that still slumming it? not aspirational enough?

A regressive system that benefited the middle classes more than anyone else. Very kind of the less well off to invest in the future of the more well off.

So you'll no doubt support a grant system for the less well off as I received back in the day. I'm really not sure what planet you lot live on where you think working class kids are going to take on 40k worth of debt to get a degree, especially as now there's now guarantee of a job at the end of it. The middle classes will pay whatever it requires to get their kids through higher education, as long as they have the money, so the end result is a reduction in working class kids going to university.

So you'll no doubt support a grant system for the less well off as I received back in the day. I'm really not sure what planet you lot live on where you think working class kids are going to take on 40k worth of debt to get a degree, especially as now there's now guarantee of a job at the end of it. The middle classes will pay whatever it requires to get their kids through higher education, as long as they have the money, so the end result is a reduction in working class kids going to university.

but it's not debt is it? you can't pay it off cash if you are wealthy enough, it's a surrogate to create a tax system that only kicks in when you earn a certain amount and the more you earn the more you pay. The net impact is highest on the highest future earners. Do a low paid job such as a teacher in a nursery context and you are likely not to pay a penny to the tuition fees for your degree

Not at all, but I'd suggest that the number of jobs in Darlington is insignificant compared to London, Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham, Bristol, Liverpool etc, where you haven't a hope of a 78k house that's worth buying.

Sounds like a perfect reason for businesses to relocate there really... think how much less you can pay your staff if they can buy a house for half a groat and they've got nobody else to work for.

it's not debt is it? you can't pay it off cash if you are wealthy enough, it's a surrogate to create a tax system that only kicks in when you earn a certain amount and the more you earn the more you pay. The net impact is highest on the highest future earners. Do a low paid job such as a teacher in a nursery context and you are likely not to pay a penny to the tuition fees for your degree

It wasn't a quote THM, it was a comment on your post. Still "fabricating" what you have previously posted? Plus ca change!

You are correct duckie. It wasn't a quote. You made up something up instead ie, that the SNP were "nasty". 0/10 trolling, but plus ca change. Poor wee duckie. It's some complex you appear to have. I hope it gets better in time. Best of [s]British[/s] sorry, Scottish to you.

We do appreciate, however, just how proud you all must be regarding lower income access to higher education in Scotland. Another great example of the gap between rhetoric and reality. Plus ca change there too. But at least it's not as bad as it was, always a silver lining eh?

Suggesting that anybody has a complex while spending the whole Indy thread making up names for anything remotely linked to tha mats side is quite amusing, and was my basis for pointing out your continued inability to avoid bringing them into any political thread. Oh and not being an SNP voter, I am not proud of the way they haven't addressed the inequality gap for higher education places, good idea poorly implemented. I am proud of the way they opposed the benefits cuts though. Something that Labour shamed themselves by not doing.

Come on Ernie. You love it!

I did you a nice pickchoor and everyfink 🙂

[img] [/img]

Well done, the ability to partially backtrack is part of the long road to recovery and almost factual ^. Keep it up.

But at least we agree on the state of education inequality in Scotland. Odd, that it was a flag hosted high during the indi vote, but that was all about making things up after all. Still as many have argued, Labour should (perhaps) take a leaf out of the SNP book.

The SNP are pragmatists after all and the ends (power, independence) justify whatever means (lying, deceipt, adopting RW polices where necessary and then combining them with incompatible LW ones etc). And they understand that the masses a unable or unwilling to scrutinise what they say. They are the masters of spin. So to square the circle, the main argument from north of the wall is to return to the ways of the Bliar.

Sorted.....I never realised it was that easy and there was dear Nicola showing Labour just how to do it. wake up you red Sassenachs. Power is there, if you can be bothered to reach out and grab it. Alternatively, carry on as you are.....

...anyone fancy returning to the High Court?!?

*applause for Binners*

Indeed bravo binners. But I get the feeling that you might not be taking this issue seriously enough...it's no laughing matter....or is it???

Just a thought on labour being irrelevant in Scotland, they shouldn't be right now. Scotland had been in recession for nearly a year, Corbyn and his mates should be up here all the time hammering home the message that SNP are failing and that they can change it for the better. Instead virtually nothing, it is the Tories who now lead the attack on SNP policies and spin.

Dragon, you are aware that it was the meddling of UK Labour that screwed the Scottish party right? Why would they want to come up here?

FWIW I know a few folk that like him, dunno about threat to independence but hes certainly more popular than anyone else in Westminster.

binners - Member

Come on Ernie. You love it!

Posted 5 hours ago

No shit sherlock.

How can you tell.........did you find a little clue in my previous post ?

ernie_lynch - Member

Now I don't mind your personal insults, in fact I find it rather reassuring that you should feel the need to resort to them.

Posted 18 hours ago

You're a right proper sleuth, aintcha 😆

BTW how times are you going to post the same hilarious joke ?.......just wondering like as I might have to start doing stretch exercises for my sides.

Drogon - they tried that but have so little credibility and the SNP have proved to be competent so it didn't work. The constant cry of "SNP bad" from labour has been a large part of their downfall. Google " bain principle" to find out why.

At the GE the SNP propaganda was all " we have done this, We will do this" and didn't mention another party at all. the labour propaganda mentioned the SNP more than the labour policies. It was all - " the SNP stole my sweeties"

What seems to be happening is positive campaigning works better than negative campaigning here. Truthfullness and credibilty works better than smearing your opponents. Hence the rise of the tories - Ruthie tank commander appears positve and credible so reaps the rewards

Any westminster party would kill for the level of voting and approval that the SNP gets - and the media is overwhelmingly hostile to the SNP

The Labour Government decided to extract around £23B in license costs for 3G

It was an auction, nobody [i]had[/i] to pay that much.

tjagain - Member
...What seems to be happening is positive campaigning works better than negative campaigning here. Truthfullness and credibilty works better than smearing your opponents. Hence the rise of the tories - Ruthie tank commander appears positve and credible so reaps the rewards...

Agree.

What critics of the SNP forget is that attacking them on detail of policy or implementation isn't going to work as long as they are reasonably upfront with what they're doing.

It is a party with a cause, and they will be supported almost regardless because independence is the most important issue to most of its voters. Other stuff will be forgiven so long as they are seen to be pursuing that.

Negative spin against them just seems to swell the ranks because it is usually couched in terms that are seen by many in the electorate as anti-Scottish.

So how the hell did this happen ?

Latest YouGov poll : CON 38%, LAB 31%, LDEM 8%, UKIP 13%.

Weeks of unrestrained attacks by the New Labour clique against the Labour leader, massive support from their friends in the media, Blairite MPs going on strike and refusing to oppose the Tories in Parliament, the Tories have a new popular leader, apparently, and the Tory lead over Labour is only 7% ? WTF ? Seriously, WTF ?

And the LibDems, the allegedly "centre party", haven't benefited at all. WTF is going on ? Even when the Labour Party were united behind Gordon Brown the Tories managed to get poll leads of over 20%.

OK this could be just a rogue poll, and it probably is, but out of all the pollsters YouGov have the best track record (TNS still give the Toties a double digit lead) and even if you allow for a huge margin of error it still suggests that there has already been some sort of slight recovery in Labour support - and the leadership issue hasn't even been sorted ! Although obviously no one thinks Owen Smith will actually win.

The next general election is still probably 4 years away and although I won't predict election results, I don't possess a crystal ball, I had previously said that the Tories would [i]probably[/i] win it.

However after the monumental acts of sabotage carried out by the New Labour clique over many weeks it seemed pretty certain to me that the Tories would easily win the next GE, I just didn't think that huge damage could be healed in even 4 years - it would take the next intake of Labour MPs to do that imo. But now I genuinely don't know.

It will be interesting to see if there are anymore 'rogue polls' where a double digit Tory lead disappears in a matter of just a couple of weeks, specially after Conference and the leadership contest.

When Harold Wilson famously said that a week was a long time in politics he certainly wasn't overstating the point imo.

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/

So how the hell did this happen ?

Latest YouGov poll : CON 38%, LAB 31%, LDEM 8%, UKIP 13%.

Calculator says that with predicted boundary change that would give a Conservative majority of 52

Go Jezza! 😀

The rail unions are doing their best to remind normal people what they would be voting for if they were to vote for Corbyn, or either of the candidates really.

Go Unions !!!

Calculator says that with predicted boundary change that would give a Conservative majority of 52

What the Croydon Communist fails to comment on is the persistence of UKIP Farage has gone, they have a acrimonious leadership election, their primary reason for existence has come and gone yet they are still the third party. If Red UKIP emerges from this a Corbyn led labour party is going even more problems

Ernie isn't really paying attention to this pointless, stupid thread, by the way. No point trying to engage him on it, as he's not paying it any attention at all. Oh no.

(Awaits supercilious comment about me only making glib, lightweight comments. Sits ready with "Meh" as a response.)

dragon - Member

Just a thought on labour being irrelevant in Scotland, they shouldn't be right now. Scotland had been in recession for nearly a year, Corbyn and his mates should be up here all the time hammering home the message that SNP are failing and that they can change it for the better. Instead virtually nothing

Dugdale pretty much slammed the door in his face when he was elected, is the issue there. For Corbyn's part, he inexplicably seems to respect her decision making and leadership and has left her to get on with... whatever it is that she does. Miliband was the same with Murphy.

(there's a weird irony here; when scottish labour had decent leaders, westminster labour treated them like a branch office. Now that scottish labour is led by clowns, westminster labour says "well you know what's best for Scotland" and lets them get on with it)

Double post

Binners you a Website developer- serious question

No, he runs a hedge fund, based in Berkeley Square. Unless he's in his Monaco office, that is.

Shame I need some graphical development skills... but hedge funds need attention