not a good idea to look at individual taxes in isolation mol
Was the VAT increase progressive?
Its neither by definition, since its a tax on expenditure not income. Another popular myth though granted.
The tax system is neither designed nor run on the basis of individual taxes. It has to be considered as a whole unless of course the incentive is to justify and already held position
Its neither by definition, since its a tax on expenditure not income. Another popular myth though granted.
But we all pay it - it is not really a luxury tax, really, is it?
The tax system is neither designed nor run on the basis of individual taxes. It has to be considered as a whole unless of course the incentive is to justify and already held position
Well that's exactly why I brought up VAT.
No its a tax on consumption/expenditure. Yes, we do all pay it, correct.
VAT has become increasingly popular over time and across political parties for a very different reason. Trying to make political milage on the issue is simply to miss the point
Most people aren't rich, most people would benefit from a Labour party looking after them. The problem is that most people have been convinced otherwise by Tories.
Actually most people in the UK are very rich on a global basis. Anyone with assets over £500k is a member of the 1% - think about property and value of a pension and that is a very large proportion of the UK, perhaps even the majority
Was the VAT increase progressive?
It helped to bring us into line woth the rest of Europe. Once we add VAT to food (as the EU wants us too as well as removing reduced rates on energy bills) we'll be just like them. VAT is also an exceplent tax as it collects money from tourists for example
What TMH says is spot on re the myths touted by the left. The majority of people in the UK "take out" or benefit more from the state than they contribute. Thats fine as a concept the point is where do you draw the line ?
The Labour party does not offer an aspirational goal, it bleets about unfairness and inequality when the reality is the UK is one of the best places in the world to live if your are poor. Yes, in their vision of utopia it would be even better but the electorate don't buy their vision and most importantly the consequences.
No one can be sure of electibility though
@Alex, all the old school Labour figures like Blunket etc said (I paraphrase), "we tried this before and it didn't work"
If Labour want to persist with the Corbyn experiment into 2020 I would for one would say, be my guest. Lets put a hard left manifesto under Corbyn to the electorate at the GE 2020.
jambalaya - MemberThe majority of people in the UK "take out" or benefit more from the state than they contribute.
This only works if you pretend their only contribution is via tax paid, and ignore their contribution via work. I understand why people like to pretend this, though. Meanwhile companies make goods, profits and tax revenues by magic, owners "create wealth" and employees take more than they give.
Lets put a hard left manifesto under Corbyn to the electorate at the GE 2020.
Ah perspective again. And the media fallacy from the resident stw arbiter of press neutrality that corbyn is somehow 'hard' left.
If we were to plot current conservative and labour policies on the political compass (that last year even made thm look left wing or so he told us), do you think the conservatives would be further over to the right of the middle line, or Labour over to the left of it?
If you look a what they do rather than what they and others say they do, then they would be very much in the centre and overlapping and often on the other side of their supposed points - its like the SNP who have polices tha would make the Toires blush and yet pretend to be left of centre. Nonsense.
Can't work out what you mean about relative 'hardness' of leftlabour or right/conservative wings.
Also can't work out if you are expressing your distaste about the political compass project, the snp, both or neither.
None of the above.
A least the political compass had two dimensions 😉
Winky smilie is unhelpful: perhaps condescendion at jambalaya's reduction to/clumsy use of 'hard left', or my attempts to add the all important perspective to it? I figured that in this particular instance/poster it was better challenging just one axis at a time. I don't think he could cope with the idea of conservatives being further north too.
Should we talk about Vicki Kirby instead?
Trying to make political milage on the issue is simply to miss the point
Well then educate me.
Seems to me that increasing VAT on essentials is taxing the poor proportionally more and is hence regressive. Can you explain why that's not the case?
VAT on essentials
Define 'essential'
Electricity and gas?
Electricity and gas?
Yep, but the rate wasn't increased on either of these.
Seems to me that increasing VAT on essentials is taxing the poor proportionally more and is hence regressive
VAT is an EU issue as the majority of rates (+/- a little) re decided there. The UK has some noted exemptions but it's the eurocracy that is driving VAT
The UK has some noted exemptions but it's the eurocracy that is driving VAT
Poor George Osborne, look how his hands are tied by those evil foreigners!
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10371590 ]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10371590[/url]
jambalaya - MemberActually most people in the UK are very rich on a global basis. Anyone with assets over £500k is a member of the 1% - think about property and value of a pension and that is a very large proportion of the UK, perhaps even the majority
Sorry Jammers, old chap, but with that one statement you've shown what I suspect a lot of Tory MP's think. That the rarefied air they circulate in is somehow representative of the lives of most [s]plebs[/s] 'ordinary people'
You're seriously suggesting that the majority of the UK population is individually sat on assets totalling over half a million quid? Sorry dear boy, but thats just more.....
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"More or less" did this.
If you're on Minimum wage you're in the top 10pc wealthiest people on the planet. And that's before you factor in the free healthcare we all get.
Osborne putting VAT up to 20% simply brought it broadly in line with the rest of Europe. However the UK still holds a 0% rate on 'essentials' that the EU would love to be bumped up to 5% minimum.
If you're on Minimum wage you're in the top 10pc wealthiest people on the planet. And that's before you factor in the free healthcare we all get.
I don't think anyone's denying that if you're born in this country then you're very lucky compared to most people in the world. However, it's not a race to the bottom, and it can't be used as justification or excuse for the hardship and poverty some people in this country experience. If it was, then I'd expect the likes of Jamba and his ilk to be ardent flag wavers of economic immigration and foreign aid in order to help all those poor sods who were born somewhere less rich than we were.
The issue isn't how much capital the majority of Brits might have, or the average Brit.
The issue is that *given* most of us have so much, some people are still in significant poverty despite their best efforts. This is a travesty, we should all be ashamed. There IS enough money to help everyone, and for the highly successful to still be filthy rich. The issue seems to be that the filthy rich resent helping those in need.
In other news - I just found out the latest ICM poll has Tories and Labour on level points, with Labour having gained four. Comres has Labour still a fair way behind but also having gained two against a Tory loss of three.
That is interesting, isn't it?
That is interesting, isn't it?
http://www.icmunlimited.com/media-centre/media-center/guardian-poll-march-2016
However, the headline figures are somewhat misleading, and few should be in any doubt of ICM’s view of our own survey.
Oh aye, don't get me wrong I'm not proclaiming the new era.
However the trends were somewhat interesting, I thought. Both polls showed a fall for the Tories and an increase for Labour.
Considering that Corbyn is supposed to be so toxic and loony left, and still has his own MPs slagging him off and ignoring the tory shambles over Europe, shouldn't the tories be in a double digit lead? That's not interesting at all is it!
There IS enough money to help everyone, and for the highly successful to still be filthy rich. The issue seems to be that the filthy rich resent helping those in need.
I think the upper echelons of society seem to reverting back to some kind of Victorian morality where wealth would appear to be some kind of reward from god for your righteousness, and therefore a reflection of your worth as a human being. Thus they can dispense with a welfare system that doesn't judge, but supplies on the basis of need, without prejudice. To be replaced by charity, where those god has deemed to be more righteous can dispense crumbs from the top table, dependent on who they deem to be 'deserving' of their largesse, who must of course be eternally grateful.
I'm working back in Manchester City Centre again, after a few years away, and I am genuinely shocked at the explosion of the homeless on the streets. A lot of whom clearly with mental health issues.
If a society is judged on how it cares for its most vulnerable, then George Osbournes latest wheeze to slash the benefits of the disabled seems pretty indicative of the society we now have. Cold, harsh,and uncaring, with a strata at the top obsessed with accumulating more and more, for no purpose other than they seem to think they deserve it
I'm working back in Manchester City Centre again, after a few years away, and I am genuinely shocked at the explosion of the homeless on the streets. A lot of whom clearly with mental health issues.
That can't be right - THM has stats to show the opposite!!
However, I note with amusement suggestions that Gideon is now planning to copy Corbyn with a programme of "Peoples' Quantitative Easing" http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/mar/15/george-osborne-budget-to-set-transport-schemes-in-motion
Binners; I am off to buy a special hat...a special hat just so I can take it off to you for that Jambabollocks pic. Top work fella.
I think it's a bit close to bullying imvho...
Considering that Corbyn is supposed to be so toxic and loony left, and still has his own MPs slagging him off and ignoring the tory shambles over Europe, shouldn't the tories be in a double digit lead? That's not interesting at all is it!
And conversely, with the Tories about to rip each other apart over the absolute disaster that was the EU negotiations and Brexit referendum, with economic indicators not great, with the NHS being dismembered, with the pension retreats, with austerity...Labour should be demolishing the Tories everywhere.
And yet they're not.
However, I note with amusement suggestions that Gideon is now planning to copy Corbyn with a programme of "Peoples' Quantitative Easing" http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/mar/15/george-osborne-budget-to-set-transport-schemes-in-motion
where is there any mention of quantitative easing in that article ?
And yet they're not.
Yet...
Yet...
New leader should do it. Not long now I guess.
New leader should do it.
Lolz really?
Couldn't do any worse. 🙂
Don't count on it!
Initial reports of 'cheap gains now, hard stuff later' budget looks like one of a government not expecting to still be the government for much of 2020 😕
@binners you have to include the implied value of the state and private pensions
Cranberry that article is bobbins
Whether it's Bullingdon bullies burning money in front of homeless people and trashing restaurants for fun or OULC labour activists ganging up on Jews and being racist douchebags.
The nastiness in politics seems to spring from the self entitled few and especially at Oxford uni for some reason, who believe they are genuinely better than everyone else, unfortunately from Blair and co to bojo, Cameron and Osborne etc
..... That place is great at producing sociopaths
(sorry that took me 8 hrs to finish the sentence)
Haters look away:
they'll be apoplectic in torygraph towers with that news.
