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It's a comparison between those backing him and those critical of him.
Like global warming though, innit? BBC shouldn't try and create some form of artificial 50:50 'balance' in the debate where where the evidence and established opinion is overwhelming.
Hahahahah, nope, no problem with the hard left
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Erm, but aren't they their own party? Surely only Labour members get a say, not those of other parties.
God damn those hard lefties discussing what the STW righties have
spent weeks discussing often in a vacuum with no one of the left present
FFS so desperate to score cheap points you forget to make sense or have principles- oh sorry your RW thats to be expected#lamecheapshots
Which is all this risible thread is
Fiscally responsible point scoring.
Like global warming though, innit? BBC shouldn't try and create some form of artificial 50:50 'balance' in the debate where where the evidence and established opinion is overwhelming.
Well for one Politics ain't empirical it's largely a matter of opinion. So if you load one side more than the other then that becomes bias.
Also, it's about being impartial as possible certainly from the BBC's point of view.
Finally it's not so much about creating balance , it's about giving the same amount of screen time to the differing perspectives.
"Oh god... I made fun of Corbyn/Momentum's crowd panoramas on twitter and instantly gain a few anti-Corbyn followers
Maybe I should explain that I'm allowed to make fun of something without automatically being on their 'side'."
LOL, I get that. You support/oppose one argument/point on a topic and everyone assumes you support/oppose them on the entire issue. Freaky.
"it's about giving the same amount of screen time to the differing perspectives."
Which is a bit tricky when one side typically refuses to go on your flagship news shows.
Also raises the question what is balance in this context? Should every show have mainstream Labour input plus Momentum/Corbyn input. In which case Labour gets two people to the Tory's 1 which isn't fair either.
On reflection Balance becomes a nightmare when one party splits in all but name and the leadership no longer support all of the current policy.
I'm not saying media coverage is right, just that I'm not sure what right looks like.
The BBC is far from impartial and it's journalism is rarely critical (as in critical analysis)....the coverage of the referendum (lies stated by either side that were rarely challenged/reported as false) is a clear example. The BBC was just a mouthpiece for the campaigns.
The BBC was just a mouthpiece for the campaigns.
It is a sad development in our news that things are reported and commented upon before they happen " Mr Sad is going to make a speech about frowning and some other things" etc report after so the words said not the copy that the Spad gives you are the news
That @gentlerpolitics feed was sadly as I thought it would be, abuse, rape threats, anti-semitism. Niw I am certain there is large amounts of Islamaphobix and racist abuse on there as well but not as part of a Tory leadership election.
The SWP twitter feed and entryism is out in full force too, as per CFH's there is little to stop you joining Labour and voting even if you are an SWP member, Labour don't have fhe rescources to check. As per my cuckoo remark, no point stuggling with your own niche party when you can take over a national organisation and official opposition.
@rone / huffington post. Corbyn is really dull on TV, its also my view he generally tries to avoid interviews. You could see with the piece ViceNews did on him as soon as fhe anti-semitism row hit he went into hiding for days on end. Also Corbyn is so isoltaed with so few supoorters (McDonald, Abbott) there aren't the guests to invite onto TV. 80% of the PLP is against his leadership and I suspect mist are available for interview.
Corbyn's team need to understand the media is reporting thungs as it and many of us, see them. The guy's leadership is a shambles and he has laways been an outsider/maverick fighting against Labour Party as much as for anything else.
Just for the record once again I am resident in the UK, we have these wonderful documents called passports which let you travel to other places. I use mine a lot.
Lol says the islamophobic person who wanted/did? to vote J.C in the last leadership election.
"its also my view he generally tries to avoid interviews."
The interview in the Guardian above much confirms that. The point put to him was he was mostly preaching to the converted on social media and rallies.
It's easy to see why though isn't it?"its also my view he generally tries to avoid interviews."
He says something on Twitter and the public get to read it.
He says something to the media and they get to spin it before the public get to read it.
"It's easy to see why though isn't it?
He says something on Twitter and the public get to read it.
He says something to the media and they get to spin it before the public get to read it."
Well yes, but the point Owen Jones put to him was that on Twitter he's preaching to the converted. On R4 Today (for instance) he's reaching a large number of people he wants to convert.
I still think he could write an article on the condition it would be published without alteration, and it would get published.
Also Corbyn is so isoltaed with so few supoorters (McDonald,[u] [b]Abbott[/b][/u]) there aren't the guests to invite onto TV.
I think that theres an important factor revealed there as to why so many people have the impression that Corbyn's Labour Party is full of hypocrisy, loony politics and, frankly, utter codswallop.
He avoids interviews as he's got no answers to remotely challenging questions. We saw at the Charkrabati report launch he just can't help but let some remark slip and turn the whole event into a disaster. No one prompted him to give the EU 7.5 / 10, he damned the campaign by very faint praise. He is however good at ranting to the converted about injustice. He has had a long career and now has a £1.6m pension based upon ranting about injustice while achieving absolutely nothing and having never previously had a position of responsibility in Government or opposition. Its obvious what he is good at at equally obvious where his faults lie.
@ctk I was going to join as a supporter a year ago to vote for Corbyn but decided to save the £3 as it was clear he was going to win. I want his left wing politics to get a good airing so the people can opine on them. They did so in Scotland and may they do so again in 2020
So it was ok for you to join and vote as a right winger but not ok for people from the left? I don't understand your logic.
He avoids interviews as he's got no answers to remotely challenging questions.
Why should that matter? The referendum showed quite clearly that having no answers was a plus not a minus. You can then just make things up to suit.
FWIW, Corbyn is better when facing direct questions - ok not PMQ - he should spend more time doing it.
"FWIW, Corbyn is better when facing direct questions - ok not PMQ - he should spend more time doing it."
Even if he wasn't he has to learn. Milliband was IMO pretty slick at fielding questions after a bit of media training and practice. JC ain't gonna get there without doing a bit.
I think his real problem in terms of getting his message out is he has a massive list of expensive stuff he wants to do and his answer to paying for it is"borrow". Not a popular message. So perhaps he's glad of an excuse to avoid discussing policy aspirations.
Also Corbyn is so isoltaed with so few supoorters (McDonald, Abbott)
Clive Lewis
Cat Smith
Emily Thornberry
Dennis Skinner
Jon Trickett
Imran Hussain
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-unelectable-clive-lewis-labour-leadership-election-a7164011.html ]oops.[/url]
So it was ok for you to join and vote as a right winger but not ok for people from the left? I don't understand your logic.
I never once said what the lefties where doing was wrong, I was pointing out that a lot of Corbyn's support came from outside Labour. No I don't think its OK for someone to vote for something as a joke but the Labour Party created the system so easily open to abuse why not was my logic, same logic applies to the those further left than Labour. The Party has created a situation which people can easily abuse so why not. I think it demonstrates they are not fit to govern or as the cliche goes arrange a p.ss up in a brewery.
@tmh I have never once seen him deal credibly with a difficult question. I remember the hustings where he absolutely refused to give a number of refugees he would accept if leader, no figure, no range. His "performance" at the Chakrabati press conference and the Home Affairs select commitee was appalling. Shamri got told off for handing him notes of what to say.
Corbyn isn't used to being challenged or even asked questions in an interview. He has very little experience of it and it shows.
Did you actually read it?Mr Woppit - Member[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-unelectable-clive-lewis-labour-leadership-election-a7164011.html ]oops.[/url]
He's saying that the more Labour MPs say he's unelectable, the more unelectable he becomes - he's calling for support for Corbyn.
Here is his own article:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/27/jeremy-corbyn-labour-party-leader-crisis
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jul/30/donald-trump-labour-personality-cult-hadley-freeman ]an interesting piece by Hadley Freeman on modern politics and the personality cult[/url]
[url= https://medium.com/@OwenJones84/questions-all-jeremy-corbyn-supporters-need-to-answer-b3e82ace7ed3#.9v8gcusjo ]My questions may strike you as unhelpful or uncomfortable. I’m beyond caring. Call me a Blairite, Tory, Establishment stooge, careerist, sellout, whatever makes you feel better. The situation is extremely grave and unless satisfactory answers are offered, we are nothing but the accomplices of the very people we oppose.[/url]
[url= https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/759770546322092037 ]Given the comments re social media, rather amusing that this was/is the original source![/url]
personality cult
Give him his dues - its one thing you can't accuse Owen of having
The root of the problem is confusing Policy with Leadership. In a democratic party, the party, decides policy. So the leader's policy views are less important than their ability to lead. Jeremy Corbyn was elected by people who liked his policies - not his leadership ability.
I don't have a problem with his policies - but as he's demonstrated, he's not a leader. A leader should be able to unite the party, not split it. A party leader who puts forward his personal views in parliamentary debate, when they're contrary to policy decided by conference, is abusing his position as leader.
To some extent I have kept my counsel, in respect to this thread and ignored personal digs from individuals "must have taken too many hits around the head on the picket line" etc. So here goes...I can't take you "slogan" driven lefties with any serious intent - to be frank Boys (and that is what you are) you do not have the right to even shit in the shadow of the people I stood on picket lines with.. they would have laughed at you and told you to **** off. Can't see this surviving the moderators but heh ho that's a forum for you
you do not have the right to even shit in the shadow of the people I stood on picket lines with.
Cool slogan, bro.
For you maybe...
And I am not your brother comrade
Oh. You're being serious. Well, that's no fun, is it?
I wasn't, by the way. Comrade.
Well there you go.. irony intact
Corbyn's refused to take part in a Channel 4 hosted debate with Smith:
Greybeard if I may differ, I think Corbyn has principals and slogans, he doesn't have any policies (or certainly not many).
@oldman excuse the question, are you for or against Corbyn as leader ?
@CaptJohn standard practice for the incumbent to dodge a debate, they are only really of benefit to challengers
Corbyn's refused to take part in a Channel 4 hosted debate with Smith:
Quite right The incumbent has nothing to gain from a debate and everything to lose.
Not that JC could lose a leadership battle where tens of thousands have joined the party specifically to vote for him.
You may indeed differ, jambalaya, and you may well be right - but I don't think it changes the point I was trying to make.Greybeard if I may differ, I think Corbyn has principals and slogans, he doesn't have any policies (or certainly not many).
Jamba against Corbyn as leader (although I agree with his principles he is just slogans not policy) at the moment we need an effective opposition and he is devicsive in respect to the working poor and the middle ground.
In an ideal world, this thread would be more like this:
https://medium.com/@OwenJones84/questions-all-jeremy-corbyn-supporters-need-to-answer-b3e82ace7ed3#.2lukx142i
CaptJon - MemberCorbyn's refused to take part in a Channel 4 hosted debate with Smith
It'd be a shit debate tbh, considering Smith's pitch for leadership literally every debate point would be Corbyn saying what he thinks, then Smith saying "I totally agree with that, and I am not Jeremy Corbyn"
The tory party leadership TV debates were riveting though eh.
As jamby notes leaders - or those ahead in the polls- never want to debate as they have nothing to gain from the debate and only have something to lose.
Personally I think they should be made to do husting in this and the GE but until this is the case leaders/those in front will continue to duck them whatever their political leaning
In an ideal world, this thread would be more like this:
That ideal world was on the previous page! 😉
In an ideal world, this thread would be more like this:
https://medium.com/@OwenJones84/questions-all-jeremy-corbyn-supporters-need-to-answer-b3e82ace7ed3#.2lukx142i
I think many (most) of those points have been brought up in this thread, he's just saying how things are.
Unfortunately all we get is people against him saying he's a catastrophic disaster because of those points, and people for him just denying those points.I think many (most) of those points have been brought up in this thread, he's just saying how things are.
No middle ground. no constructive criticism. no supportive criticism.
I read this morning, that Jon O'Donnell wants to nationalise the banks.
I think we should stock up on toilet rolls, just in case there's anything left to eat...
I read this morning, that Jon O'Donnell wants to nationalise the banks.
Didn't we do that recently?
No. You're getting confused with just giving them an unfeasibly vast amount of our money, and asking them nicely if they'd mind not paying it all to themselves in massive bonuses, then going on to bankrupt the economy.
Its a subtle, barely perceptible difference, admittedly 😉
If I may say so a not uncommon long term Labour & unite union member, self prpclaimed anti-Israel and anti-Zionist use of "final solution" phrase for Blair, thinks Mossad are behind the murder of the Catholic Priest nr Rouen (false flag). Of course a big Corbynista - from @gentlerpolitics
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Fake account J. Not saying M15 but it is fake.
I wonder if i can find a RW racist on twitter
Makes you think
WTF is the point of that post Jamby?
Yes some folk are nutters on both sides of the political spectrum. No one is disputing this.
Its not even DM level of shitty slurs this 🙄
Stop debasing yourself and us with this tripe
its indicative only of the way you scour the internet to find something that fits your bias.
It's telling that in the current aggressive partisan atmosphere that it seems really strange to read something that just tries to understand:
http://www.newstatesman.com/2016/08/explaining-love-jeremy-corbyn
[url= https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/02/thangam-debbonaire-had-jeremy-corbyn-rung ]From today Guardian; political competence, Corbyn style[/url]
"It's telling that in the current aggressive partisan atmosphere that it seems really strange to read something that just tries to understand:"
Excellent article but it's more accurate to say it 'just tries to understand, and then it totally debunks all of the reasons given'.
to be frank Boys (and that is what you are) you do not have the right to even shit in the shadow of the people I stood on picket lines with
I spose historically, left wing ideas have been beset on all sides by infighting from factions claiming they are more left and all that jazz...
I've had it harder than you... My nan ate coal and shat diamonds, my ol' man topped hisself when the tin mines closed, I sold my sister to an arab for a packet o' bines and a knee trembler up a back alley in Willington
Yaaaaaawn
So, as I've asked before... with Corbyn being such a disappointment, what's a brave young voter to do? (and please don't give me all that self congratulatory grass roots nonsense again, I'm well aware of YOUR achievements now, thanks)
My nan ate coal and shat diamonds, my ol' man topped hisself when the tin mines closed, I sold my sister to an arab for a packet o' bines and a knee trembler up a back alley in Willington
Luxury.
Of course, we 'ad it tough....
Jeremy Corbyn will set out a 10-point vision for the future of Britain, promising full employment throughout the UK’s regions and nations brought about in part by £500bn of public spending.
Ah. The good old Magic Money Tree again. They never learn.
When a left-winger says "investment" what they mean is "throwing borrowed money down a gaping bottomless hole and watching the country go bankrupt".
Like I said... bring your own toilet rolls..
Ah. The good old Magic Money Tree again. They never learn.
Are we talking about the establishment financial experts and quantitative easing again? 🙂
You do make me giggle Yunki I will give you that
It does seem that in todays surreal world Jezza is on the same page as the governor of the bank of England.
Can someone please wake me up when all this is over
Nowt as easy to spend as other people's money...
You do make me giggle Yunki I will give you that
well... That's summink we can all be grateful for innit! 😀
If we can't laugh at the futility of it all then we're doomed
a small reminder for followers of mr blair
https://sciscomedia.co.uk/can-keep-new-labour-luke-akehurst/
A reminder of what?
That 6th formers with access to the interweb can post rambling, pointless nonsensical drivel on websites that nobody will ever read?
Sadly Yunki I am too well padded in every sense sense of the word to be doomed, my body will give out before my wealth then the kids will blow it on living above their means
Owen Smith comes across well in this imo.
Debate was quite good too. Owen Smith came across very well but I can't help but think his policy ideas wouldn't appeal to centrist floating voters any more then Corbyns. Especially when fiscal looseness is (possibly) going to become a mainstream technique in the next year or so as monetary stimulus has gone nearly as far as it can go.
https://www.youtube.com/embed/zJpRK10e6uI
I think in the debates and tv appearances it's too easy to dismiss everything as copying Corbyn or platitudes to the membership, but in the longer form of that 1hour interview you can tell that he actually holds those views - I just can't believe he's clever enough to have made up all those angles to support it.
I can't decide whether centerism actually exists - I think floating voters like their leaders to be of a certain 'type' and Brown/Milliband/Kinnock/Foot didn't fit that mould. Corbyn definitely doesn't. I'm not sure Owen Smith does either. I also think that susceptibility to spin is a key ingredient in floating voters. Cameron was excellent at praying on fears - May looks like she will be too.I can't help but think his policy ideas wouldn't appeal to centrist floating voters any more then Corbyns
Effectiveness at cutting through the spin will be key.
I think in the debates and tv appearances it's too easy to dismiss everything as copying Corbyn or platitudes to the membership, but in the longer form of that 1hour interview you can tell that he actually holds those views - I just can't believe he's clever enough to have made up all those angles to support it.
To be fair the debate was 1hr40, but I take your point. Personally, I'd rather they wrote out their policy in detail rather than speaking it verbally.
I think floating voters like their leaders to be of a certain 'type' and Brown/Milliband/Kinnock/Foot didn't fit that mould. Corbyn definitely doesn't. I'm not sure Owen Smith does either.
Yeah, maybe. Personally I like the 'style' of Owen so I think he does conform to the certain 'type'. But it's really hard to get past the "borrow and spend while pushing the wealthy and their cash abroad" message.
Effectiveness at cutting through the spin will be key.
That would be nice, but the reality is that spin & soundbite is the bit of the message that gets through to floating voters/non-voters. Detail is the boring stuff they don't listen to.
That would be nice, but the reality is that spin & soundbite is the bit of the message that gets through to floating voters/non-voters. Detail is the boring stuff they don't listen to.
We send £350 million a week to Europe. Lets spend it on the NHS instead. We send £350 million a week to Europe. Lets spend it on the NHS instead.We send £350 million a week to Europe. Lets spend it on the NHS instead.We send £350 million a week to Europe. Lets spend it on the NHS instead.We send £350 million a week to Europe. Lets spend it on the NHS instead.We send £350 million a week to Europe. Lets spend it on the NHS instead.We send £350 million a week to Europe. Lets spend it on the NHS instead.We send £350 million a week to Europe. Lets spend it on the NHS instead.We send £350 million a week to Europe. Lets spend it on the NHS instead.We send £350 million a week to Europe. Lets spend it on the NHS instead.We send £350 million a week to Europe. Lets spend it on the NHS instead.We send £350 million a week to Europe. Lets spend it on the NHS instead.We send £350 million a week to Europe. Lets spend it on the NHS instead.We send £350 million a week to Europe. Lets spend it on the NHS instead.We send £350 million a week to Europe. Lets spend it on the NHS instead.We send £350 million a week to Europe. Lets spend it on the NHS instead.We send £350 million a week to Europe. Lets spend it on the NHS instead.We send £350 million a week to Europe. Lets spend it on the NHS instead.We send £350 million a week to Europe. Lets spend it on the NHS instead.We send £350 million a week to Europe. Lets spend it on the NHS instead.We send £350 million a week to Europe. Lets spend it on the NHS instead.We send £350 million a week to Europe. Lets spend it on the NHS instead.We send £350 million a week to Europe. Lets spend it on the NHS instead.We send £350 million a week to Europe. Lets spend it on the NHS instead.We send £350 million a week to Europe. Lets spend it on the NHS instead.We send £350 million a week to Europe. Lets spend it on the NHS instead.
Vote leave!!
Right... we voted to leave. What about this £350 million a week ?
What £350 million a week? I don't recall mentioning anything about that.....
Effectiveness at cutting through the spin will be key.
Probably best not vote for the former PR wonk for big pharma, then.
Just wondered about something....
See if Corbyn is unelectable, an anachronism, why does the right-wing press spend so much time attacking him? Whats the value to them in doing this?
Surely if your natural inclination is towards the Conservatives, then you'll really want Labour to fail? If so, if you really thought he was a busted flush, you'd leave him be and let Labour hang themselves?
It just seems an odd tactic to adopt.
Thoughts?
I think its part bullying, part wanting a scalp, and since PLP coup attempt just enjoying the tittle tattle.
The right wing press woul also prefer a right wing (comparatively) Labour Party.
Surely if your natural inclination is towards the Conservatives, then you'll really want Labour to fail? If so, if you really thought he was a busted flush, you'd leave him be and let Labour hang themselves?It just seems an odd tactic to adopt.
You know when you drive along the motorway and see the aftermath of a huge pile-up on the other side of the barrier? And you know that looking at it is pointless, and there's nothing you can do to help, but you can't stop yourself looking at all the wrecked cars?
Well it's like that.
See if Corbyn is unelectable, an anachronism, why does the right-wing press spend so much time attacking him? Whats the value to them in doing this?
it's the Trump factor, the risk he might actually get elected
Surely if your natural inclination is towards the Conservatives, then you'll really want Labour to fail? If so, if you really thought he was a busted flush, you'd leave him be and let Labour hang themselves?
because people rarely agree with an entire manifesto, challenge also improves and knocks the rough edges of some policies, and as always there is the revelation that one of the ideas is a bit pants
It just seems an odd tactic to adopt.
a lot of people are not tribal about politics, it's about competence, having two strong options is better than a weak and a strong as the strong option just gets weaker as they get lazy
Thoughts?
@bigndaft...imo I think alot of people feel threatened by JC's ideas...he's basically saying everything is unequal and he'll redistribute power/resources/wealth etc. Therefore those who benefit the most from our current setup will have to give up some of their 'pie' to others...how many people do you know who'd want to do that? We live in a society that subscribes to individualism so people won't think it's fair...
We live in a society that subscribes to individualism so people won't think it's fair...
Might be fair enough redistributing it amongst people that put the same amount of graft/effort/hours in but most people see that it's not the case.
A lot of people that earn the good money have put a lot of investment into themselves and work long hours.
My boss at work is Scottish, works in London, and thinks it amusing when he goes back up to Glasgow and sees people moaning about Londoners in the finance industry earning much more, before they pack up at 5 to go down the leisure club for a game of squash.
