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Saladodger - nothing will ever ease Denise Bulgers grief.
And I think that is where most peoples anger lies - The Bulger family are serving a life sentence of grief, every birthday that goes by will be another 'what if' whereas the2 boys that committed this incomprehensible crime are seemingly just getting on with life, in whatever form it has taken.
I agree with TJ.
I am not religious. I am a mother.
But what I would like to see is a system where children do not remain in chaotic households with irresponsible parent/s. Are social workers just not exercising their powers or just not wanting to make a decision?
Are social workers just not exercising their powers or just not wanting to make a decision?
I have some friends and acquaintances that work in social services here in Bristol. Jeebus, if there was ever a job where you're between a rock and a hard place, that's it. If they interfere too much, they're part of the NuLab nannying machine. If they try hard to keep a family together and it goes wrong (as it invariably will sometimes), then we're all screaming at them to get in there, smash families to bits and take children away from their parents (sometimes the only people who the children love, despite what shit parents they might be) and into care. I can say one thing...I don't know how they do it sometimes, for often shit pay and working conditions.
I'm with TJ every step of the way on this one. We can't treat 10 year olds as criminals - no matter what they're done. There's a reason that victims don't legislate or dictate punishments.
EDIT: I'm not disagreeing with you CG, just musing on how confusing a job social services must be sometimes.
i think this thread should be closed... it's not going anywhere. i'm not against discussing it, just rather it wasn't discussed.
we gain nothing from knowing that Venables has been recalled. ignorance, particularly in this case, is bliss.
i'm not against discussing it, just rather it wasn't discussed.
classic
I was living in Fazakeley a couple of miles away from Bootle when this happened. It was a shocking and disgusting crime.
I have a son the same age as the boys where when they committed the crime.
I agree with TJ and DD.
darcy - social work has to be an extremely stressful profession. Tough decisions inevitably need to be made but processes and support must be in place otherwise it's self-perpetuating.
Problem families can never be eradicated from society but I do believe we have far too many of them! Perhaps we need to rediscover the word "shame"?
People's and children's lives can be turned around, society must not give up on them. Few people are born inherently evil.
There is good in everyone but with some it can be a little harder to find.
I thought long and hard before adding to this thread. My initial thought, I have to admit, was 'here we go again' - I've made my feelings loud and clear on previous, similar threads (the kids from Edlington a month or two back), so I'm not going to repeat myself or stress myself out again. What is the outcry about now? Is it because the media want to tell us 'we told you so'? Does the fact that Venables has been recalled make any difference to what has already happened?. The one fact in this case is that nobody apart from those directly involved know why he was recalled, or for that matter, when - for all we know, he could have been recalled months ago, and somebody decided to leak this to the press. He may well have been recalled for something fairly trivial, and I hope to God that it was. Screaming and shouting that they should have been hung doesnt change what happened, and it certainly wont bring Jamie Bulger back. Its a sad, terrible situation, and the media's not doing anything to help.
Sorry about this, but after re-reading some of the comments on this thread, I could scream. Tell you what, instead of baying for revenge, why not donate some cash to the NSPCC or Childline? Try making a positive difference instead.
mikertroid
you would be keen to actually witness a child being hanged?
if thats how you feel could you kill a 10 year old?
how would you do it?
hang them? would you hold their hands as you led them to the gallows, would you tell them it will be alright or just gag them to stop them screaming for their mums
if you really could do that then you are more fuct up than them
Try making a positive difference instead.
nah, we're a long, long way from the place where we try to make people socially responsible and try to engage with those we perceive to have done us ill. and even further from the place where we seriously try to rehabilitate offenders and teach them how to be productive members of society. we want our policies and consciences guided by the mass hysteria of the daily mail, hang em, flog em, burn em. money money money it's what stops the world going round so we can shove our noses in the trough whilst claiming we're not like any one else and it's "all for your own good"
Surely if all we do is softly rehabilitate offenders, there's no deterrent to crime?
I don't agree with corporal punishment but criminals should be punished.
I know some quite grizzly criminals of various descriptions and they cannot be changed, crime is all they know.
I'm not talking about this particular case BTW.
Rehabilitation is not a soft (as in poor or weak) option. Rehabilitation is a way of understanding the problem and trying to find a way to resolve it as safely as possible. If the problem is understood (and not necessarily with just one criminal but future ones) then prevention rather than cure could be put in place.
Suggesting that someone is just born evil ( like some have done with the two boys) is a lazy way of not really dealing with the problem. To understand how or why it was done is the best way of trying to prevent another child or other children doing the same.
Just placing them in prison, or killing them would do nothing but allow more confusion and anger to boil up again the next time a child kills.
I am with TJ,punishment for the sake of punishment does no good whatsoever.One point,for any kind of rehabilitation to take place,the offender has to want to change.What do we do when that is not the case?
Did anybody see the ****stan Consul on NWT last night?
He was talking about the kidnap of the young lad from Oldham.
He played-down the whole episode, said that they have a good record in capturing the perpetrators and said, very matter-of-factly, that they put people to death for it. My wife and I both found what he said(and the way he said it) quite strange.
One thing to think about: death sentences presumably don't deter kidnappers.
Months or years of HARD labour used to be the norm in the UK and that didn't prevent crime either.
Retribution achieves little.
Hmmm, we're getting into nature or nuture now.
There some examples where people can appear to be born evil due to mental defects, but people arent generally aren't.
We are shaped by our society and experiences over the years.
The question is can this be reversed and do criminals want to become "straight" (particularly profitable ones)?
If not what then? leave them be?
"There some examples where people can appear to be born evil due to mental defects"
Are there really? Please provide me with evidence of that. As a very experienced forensic nurse, you've just made me realise that there must be some pretty big gaps in my knowledge and practise.
I would suggest fred west wasn't all there nor dr shipman.
Perhaps you should calm down, nobody has insulted you.
I'm perfectly calm, but thank you for your concern - I just thought your last post was naive. I'll grant that some unfortunates, due to what you term 'mental defects', can present a risk to themselves or others, but the concept of somebody being 'born evil' is ridiculous. Shipman had a personality disorder, as did Fred West, but, and here's the thing, people arent born with personality disorders, they are created by circumstance and experience, as I believe you yourself stated at the end of your post.
So you don't think that some people are born with mental defects which manifests in later life?
I wasn't aware of any life events which made the good dr execute elderly patients or fred to sexually abuse and murder those girls.
I'm not suggesting that they were born evil but that they suffered some kind of mental illness (maybe from birth).
Does this not happen?
Mental illness (and that obviously covers a lot of bases) generally manifests in adolescence / teenage years, but yes, it can occur earlier, and obviously, the causative factors can. Learning disabilities can certainly be present from birth (not sure if that's what you meant by 'mental defects'), but no, I'm sorry, I just cant accept the concept of someone being 'evil from birth'. As should be fairly obvious from my post, I think the whole nature versus nurture thing has been done to death, and I'm a firm believer in the 'nurture' aspect.
It would seem that it was a complaint from a work colleague that has sent Venables bad to the clink, for fighting. The police and probation service were already aware that he was involved in crime (drugs and violence) but were reluctant to recall him. This is from one of the daily rags mind so of couse completely true. If it is the case then it's more an example of how this system is not working, as those who are involved are unable put it into practice, I wonder why?
i have a uni mate who is a DI on merseyside
i was gonna ring him to find out but then realised that i really dont need to know !
In my view we need to move past the notion of evil and forget about punishment v rehabilitation.
Sometimes you cant take a chance and rely on people being rehabilitated, equally ive no interest in seeing children punished to satisfy societys need for revenge.
We need a way to keep this kind of offender seperate from society. It can be as nice as you like, no focus on punishment, these kids didnt choose their upbringing and they were just kids, but the rest of us need to be protected from their behaviour, and the best indicator of future behaviour is still past behaviour.
Sorry if I got snotty back there, I just get really rattled by threads like this. I'll readily admit to feeling that I know what I'm talking about due to the fact that I've been involved in forensic psychiatry for twenty years, but still, I shouldnt have been such a c**k. 😳
Hmm, so you think we're effectively a blank canvas when we're born and our personality is formed by what we sense and experience? (i'm not a nurse)
You did get a little excited, but no worries.
I cant make my mind up on wether i advocate the softly softly approach or the Black and white guilty approach. I find the thought of holding an act against a 10year old child for the rest of their life as bad as the act that they carried out tbh. But on the other hand i think society must start to crack down on things even if it goes against the grain in order to regain some of its order.
One thing i would like to ask. Everyone tends to look at this from the Bulgers POV. Its a living nightmare. What if you came home tonight and your 10yr old child confessed to something equally as bad? What would you do? I honestly believe children are capable of rather astonishingly bad things. I burnt down an entire field and nearly some houses when i was younger by throwing a match into a dry grass bush. Loads of fire engines and police everywhere. I didnt mean to cause the damage i did but there ya go. Say your child comes home and confesses to bullying another child and pushing that child into an oncoming car etc, what would you do?
Retribution, Deterrence And Rehabilitation are the three main principles of sentencing.
From what I remember the deterrent effects are more about the chances of getting caught than length of sentence and many criminals are not deterred at all - impulsive crimes , crime of passion etc.
As a society we have the three principles out of balance. we need more deterrence and more rehabilitation and less retribution.
For me as a pragmatist I want to see what works - and again IIRC rehabilitation is the best way of reducing future crime. I would take drug possession out of the criminal justice system and treat it as a health issue and not criminalise users [i] just for using[/i]. This would free up massive police resources to concentrate on other crimes.
I would escalate sentencing more quickly - less chances before you do real time but the real time should be purposeful. I'd make community sentencing more onerous as well. I would also employ restorative justice as well - which is where the perpetrator has to face the victim and face up to the consequences of their act. This has been shown to have [i] in the right circumstances[/i] to have positive effects - both to the victim and the perpetrator. Even in cases of murder it has allowed victims families some closure. Do you think the constant furore has helped Denise Bulger?
The other thing to remember is crime is massively down the last decade or two. it suits the papers to create a moral panic over crime to sell their papers but the impression they give is very far from the truth.
The simple fact is that the daily mail agenda of lock 'em up and throw away the key simply does not work - the things that the Mail hates ( criminals sent on holiday) actually reduces crime by changing the criminals so they no longer commit crimes.
More intervention earlier and more firmly along with high quality rehabilitation, treat drug use as a public health issue not a criminal issue and restorative justice where appropriate. This is where I believe we should be heading. Not long custodial sentences with little meaningful rehabilitation allied with too many opportunities to act missed early on.
If the Edlington boys had been rescued from their horrible circumstances and efforts put into helping them they probably would never have committed the crime they did. Too many chances missed to rehabilitate them.
edit - restorative justice
http://www.sfu.ca/crj/stories.html
backhander - I dont know about 'excited' but I'll concede (again) that I was being a bit of a c**k. Yes, I believe that generally we're blank canvases and that we're shaped by our environments and experiences. Kids are ridiculously easily led at times, and occasionally dont think about the consequences of their actions. In worst case scenarios such as the Bulger case, this is taken to extremes. In the more recent case in Edlington, you only have to look at the kids home environment and less than ideal 'parenting' to see where the roots of their behaviour were formed.
The simple fact is that the daily mail agenda of lock 'em up and throw away the key simply does not work -
Indeed. Look at the USA.
TJ - Why do you waste your time talking on this forum? Surely there is a greater purpose for you than telling us idiots how it should be / is!
This would free up massive police resources to concentrate on other crimes.
Not too mention reducing the prison population.
Now you wonder why they are being protected...lynch mob on this thread...
No wonder Australia are getting miffed with us sending nutters over there.
Kimbers,
His killers although 10 years old knew they were perpetrating the most heinous of acts.
They are never going to be an asset to society. No matter how much tree-hugging you do. Get rid.
I'm not advocating we execute all 10 year olds who commit crimes, but those two (and the boys from Eglington) are a special breed and serve no purpose here in society. The families who created the problem are equally at fault. They should serve indefinate hard labour for their efforts too.
I'm being kind here too; hanging is too good for those aberrations. They certainly didn't cry when Jamie protested about his fate. And yes, I'd look into their eyes. In fact I'd pull the bloody handle.
Kimbers, you might think I'm fcut up but I've got through 36 years without torturing any man or beast.
I like to cycle. Anyone else here like to cycle? 😐
Pete
I've cycled today. Time to hang kids instead 😕
Edit:
please note I have tongue FIRMLY in cheek if any tree-hugger decides to get upset!!
TJ?
If crime has massively gone down.
Why is it the government(Scottish) is proposing to quash jail sentences of six months or less to ease the burden on overflowing jails.
Oh, and in an age when sentencing is less severe than it used to be.
Why is it that childrens homes/social work departments are bulging full?
Also what about the crime figures? do they include the amount of non reported crimes due to people disillusioned with the legal system?
You typify the majority of middle class persons on this forum.
Look in the mirror, point, and say to yourself(again)my contribution to this country is what makes it so great.
You sometimes hear stories from people who claim they know police that worked on the Jamie Bulger case, one such story is Jamie's parents apparently left him outside shops while they where inside shop lifting, once his mother had stashed goods on or about her person she would say oh my god wheres my son as an excuse to run out of the shop to her waiting son, makes this case all the more tragic if indeed that was the case.
I also know someone who houses young offenders when they come out of prison or young offenders institution some of these are very damaged individuals and display sociopathic behaviour and had a history of harming & killing their pets or other animals and often go on to much more heinous crimes, is it possible to rehabilitate such people, they can be very clever and fool whoever is trying to reform them.
What about the venomous scum wasting valuable hospital resources who spit, assault, vomit, abuse nurses & doctors in a+e units up and down the country?
Rehabilitate? Why can't we just FUC*ING EDUCATE?
Oh that does'nt always work so rehab it is.(is re-hab not a learning curve anyways?)
Certain people will do atrocious things because they want to, it's stopping it a second time that's the problem.
"is it possible to rehabilitate such people, they can be very clever and fool whoever is trying to reform them."
Yes and no. I currently work on a personality disorder ward within a forensic setting, and of course there's an element of patients attempting to manipulate staff in order to meet their own needs - that's just part and parcel of certain types of personality disorder. However, I maintain that people aren't born with personality disorders, it's life experience and circumstances that create these complex and maladaptive behaviours. If you take that as a given, then you also have to accept the possibility that given the correct levels of care, people can and do change.
Who would like to live in a society which is allowed to hang ten year olds?
Anyone?
As much as I despair for the justice system today, I certainly don't think that capital punishment for children is the way forward.
PJM1974 - MemberWho would like to live in a society which is allowed to hang ten year olds?
Anyone?
FFS! Hanging? Nooooo .... feed them to those poor starving hungry salt crocodiles instead then look at the crocs perform death rolls on them.
Yes, I would but then I guess such society existed long time ago.
😈
Hanging a ten yr old... No - I'd humanely gas them, less distressing, but then again if I had my way I'd sever merseyside and float it out into the sea
Bloody hell and your from Macclesfied! 😆
I can't believe there are people on this thread who have killed ants.
Bastards!