MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
A tiny, statistically insignificant majority voted to leave the EU. Why would you ride roughshod over the other half?
A majority is a majority and in this case that majority was anything but insignificant and there was no other half there was a majority and a minority , that's how voting works .
Also, that was two years ago. Is that still the case? I assume that you’d back another referendum to find out, and respect that decision if it was no longer the case
That's a bit rich , if leave wins it's going to take a few years to implement so 2 years down the line the vote needs revisiting as it's no longer current but if you vote to stay in then it just happens as we are already in so effectively the vote is implemented instantly .
The EU was never going to deal with us on an honest and decent basis. They were always going to try and punish us for having the audacity to reject their rule.
Photograph from his last negotiation meeting showing the rocky time Dominic Raab got when trying to have the audacity to stand up to the EU Empire before resigning as Brexit secretary
The pained expression on his face here is the result of having just been informed by Emperor Juncker of the strategic importance of the Port of Dover to his sides trading relations.
That’s a bit rich , if leave wins it’s going to take a few years to implement so 2 years down the line the vote needs revisiting as it’s no longer current but if you vote to stay in then it just happens as we are already in so effectively the vote is implemented instantly .
Hang on, it was completely obvious to everyone wasn't it that the process was on a 2 year clock, it was a time limited negotiation that got entered into by the choice of those in charge.
At the end of that period we knew we would need to vote through and accept that deal.
Now it's crunch time, it's exactly the moment to be making sure this is the right course for the country. Anyway this is now an EU thread isn't it.
I am of the firm belief that the Leave vote was predominantly a protest vote.
Years of austerity to bale out banks, parts of the UK forgotten since the 80's, social care and the NHS being ripped apart.
All real and genuine reasons to DEMAND change. I would have voted for that sort of change too! In a heart beat.
The destroyingly sad fact is that, that demand for change was usurped by Cameron, the likes of Farage and the Daily Mail and turned on its head.
The EU is a force for good in the UK. If anything it has tried to moderate some of the Tories worst excesses via the ECJ etc.
The EU were and still are the patsies for a morally bereft Tory government. This whole sorry mess was meant to unify the Conservatives once and for all over the EU. F*** me.... the irony.
JRM is the worst of the Tory party distilled and bottled. Contemptible and dangerous.
Billyboy. You are delusional.
A majority is a majority and in this case that majority was anything but insignificant and there was no other half there was a majority and a minority , that’s how voting works .
If you were say trialling a new drug and your results were 52:48 in favour versus placebo it'd never get out the door. That's not a majority, it's just statistical error. If "leave" won by a majority of one vote, would you happily toss out the wishes of the other half of the voters? That's no democracy I recognise.
If you have a vote with a mandatory outcome then you require a supermajority (see general elections), if you have an advisory one then you do not but, well, it's an opinion poll. That's how voting works. Sorry.
Anyway this is now an EU thread isn’t it.
Yeah, that's a good point. I should probably get my moderator hat.
<mod>
Billyboy and RN, I'll afford you the right of reply because I don't approve of selective censorship. Everyone else, back on topic or take it to the EU thread please.
</mod>
Roger that, Cougar.👍
So the result was acceptable to everybody but those who didn't get their own way . How big a majority would you have been happy with , given that this was not a trial for a new drug and everybody knew the rules before they voted .
@Ramsey Neil
First, most countries that regularly use referendums have a threshold majority set at, say 55% for any vote that seeks to overturn a status quo and is effectively irreversible.
Second, I think it's perfectly sensible to have a second referendum, based on the fact that we now have a better idea of the options available, rather than some nebulous promise of gold bar shitting unicorns that the Brexiteers were promising.
JP
Cougar has spoken guys. He wont be happy if we don't play ball. The thread is about the 18th century pencil. Some people say he is:-
I’m sorry if you didn’t understand the question asked of you in the Referendum.
In essence it was… Do you consent to be ruled by a foreign power?
I don’t. The majority don’t.
if that is your understanding of the referendum vote then you are a ****ing idiot
Back on topic and a reply to Saxonrider. My post was somewhat in jest but some followers of Rome do subscribe to my tongue in cheek view.
Mr Rees Mog could not be considered a Christian individual. He may well attend church regularly but. . .
He fails on “judge not lest ye yourself be judged” and “. . . Love your neighbour as yourself”.
I do not consider myself a Christian as I am unable to hold to these tenets and without them “I am but a sounding gong”
Totally agree.
Moggs version of religion is simply a self serving world view. Bent to fit whatever his current needs are.
Morality was left at the door by him years ago.
"I think is rather uplifting"
JRM on food banks.
He probably thinks there should be more of them.
Poop scoop
I too thought that the European Court provided a good buffer for some of the injustices in the UK.
Perhaps it could adjudicate on your assertion that you ‘know’ why everybody who voted leave voted as they did?
I don’t think you would win!
Moggs version of religion is simply a self serving world view. Bent to fit whatever his current needs are.
I was going to comment on this but Poobah pulled on the choker chain.
I imagine that Jacob would be perfectly happy torturing helpless homeless people whilst at the same time politely and gently explaining to his victims, in between their screams, why this was necessary for their own good.
And that god had told him to do it.
Perhaps it could adjudicate on your assertion that you ‘know’ why everybody who voted leave voted as they did?
Many were asked, plenty willingly told people about it, completed opinion polls etc. Plenty of info out there if you want to search for it. I'm sure the ERG and JRM didn't bother to find out.
Moggy is just a liar
It's a shame that so many are gullibile enough to believe him so readily, just because he's the pinnacle of the establishment elite
https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-new-european/20180322/282630328187458
So the result was acceptable to everybody but those who didn’t get their own way
That wasn't what I was saying, rather that it's both wrong and immoral to reject the other half as irrelevant on the back of a slim majority. We've got nearly a 50:50 split of opinion, surely the just thing to do here is try and reconcile both sides, rather than "we won you lost shut up and get on with it two world wars and one world cup doo dah"?
How big a majority would you have been happy with
I already answered this in the post you replied to.
Anyway. I'm not continuing this discussion any further here. If you want to continue, ask me in the EU thread and I'll happily reply.
JRM is a naughty boy and should be sent to bed without dessert
Point of order.
As this tirade, and the ensuing hullabaloo, seems to have come about due to my allusion to the raising of the Standard by Charles I, may i make a clarification? The allusion was not framed within the Brexit debate at all, but was framed within the context of the travails of the Conservative Party, and their ongoing struggles with the nature of reality.
And where these travails intersect is in the person of Jacob Cream Cracker.
Like Charles, the Tories believe they have a divine right to rule - they are famed are they not, in their own minds at least, to be the 'natural party of Government' - and like him they are prone to exceptional hubris.
If there was a leadership contest within the Conservative party that made Cream Cracker their leader, he would then become the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. If this happened - with the no confidence vote this is, of course, not particularly likely - one suggests this would not be received well. Particularly not by me. Like Charles' expectations of fealty to the crown, one suspects that this would not create the support expected of it.
This was the context within which i likened imaginary contemporary events to an historical precedent.
If we were to frame Jacob's historical 'legacy' in terms correlative to Brexit and the Civil War, one suspects history will see him as being both wrong AND repulsive.
As this tirade, and the ensuing hullabaloo, seems to have come about due to my allusion to the raising of the Standard by Charles I, may i make a clarification?
I know where you are coming from vahaza. I suspect but cannot confirm that someone here has a deeper knowledge of the Royal House of Stuart than you.
I wonder if a certain individual can or cannot confirm their user name has anything to do with images like this:-
No surrender, Billy Boy, No ****in' Surrender.
What about the loyalist scene from Trainspotting 2
^^ You don't judge a book by it's cover you know.
I do, i can't read.
Talking about JRM with someone at work recently.
He's from Methil (in Fife, Scotland), an area that was decimated by the closure of the coal mines.
The area has always been Labour, or sometimes SNP.
Apparently JRM toured there during general election campaigning in his chauffeur-driven Bentley knocking on doors asking people for their votes.
I'm note sure how many votes he garnered, but he certainly had a few doors slammed in his face
Moggs version of religion is simply a self serving world view.
A lot of people use religion in that way. It is a defence mechanism for your views as if it says it in the bible it must be right. When you pick up on other points of the bible they don't follow/or believe in the response is always "that is different"
Billyboy.... yeah we know what thats all about, the racist Chelsea fans also had rangers logo on their their George cross/ NI nazi flag.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/dec/15/chelsea-fans-flag-ss-deaths-head-budapest
There does seem to be an emboldening of xenophobes lately & the likes of Mogg have no shame in receiving their support.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-46557076
If there was a leadership contest within the Conservative party that made Cream Cracker their leader, he would then become the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. If this happened – with the no confidence vote this is, of course, not particularly likely – one suggests this would not be received well. Particularly not by me. Like Charles’ expectations of fealty to the crown, one suspects that this would not create the support expected of it.
Tony Blair and his deal with Gordon Brown?
It's just a feature of the UK parliamentary system where we do not vote for a PM, we vote for the party.
Not quite. The UK has several electoral systems. MPs are elected on an individual basis - you vote for a person. MSPs and MAs are elected on a party list basis - you vote for the party.
Are either of those the UK parliament?
MSPs are actually elected by a mixed system - FPTP and a regional top up list.
mikewsmith
It’s just a feature of the UK parliamentary system where we do not vote for a PM, we vote for the party.
Well, more specifically it's a feature of the UK parliamentary system where we in theory vote for the party not for the leader, but millions of people vote largely on the individual, and a huge amount of politics is about personality. We have a parliamentary system but a lot of a presidential approach
In fairness, the Blair/Brown thing represented continuity and an orderly change, most people who voted for Blair's Labour wouldn't object too much for Brown's and he'd always been a key part of Blair's party and leadership. Whereas a mid-term coup representing a total change in direction, like the Tories just attempted, or like say a switch from Blair to Corbyn would have been, is very different. Especially since everyone these days is so contemptuous of referendum promises, the Tories broke their first one after about 48 hours this time IIRC so nobody taking over a party midterm will feel any twinge about doing their own thing.
"Are either of those the UK parliament?"
Scottish and Welsh legislatures are devolved from Westminster, so maybe technically...?
I didn't explain myself properly. You don't vote for a party when electing MPs. You can vote for parties in Scotland and Wales (and as TJ points out it's a hybrid in Scotland).
There's no way he could be in charge of this country.
Purely because I think he looks like a cross between that teacher at school that had no authority over any of his classes and Postman Pats paedophile brother.
Who knew Pat had a brother?
Wow!!
The thing that gets me about Mogg and his chums is that they have been saying for 2 years that we have to respect the results of a 52:48 referendum (which was plagued by promises ranging from woolly to misleading to downright wrong) for the sake of democracy, but now loose a leadership vote by about 66:34% or so and immediately say the PM is in trouble and has to think about her future. Well, she is in trouble, but perhaps that is down to that she has tried to keep a raging bunch of extremists in her own party who want the moon on a stick and more after promising the public a moon on a stick and more. I am not a huge fan of May but she has been between 2 lynch mobs for the last few months and I suspect that the likes of Mogg are not thinking of the well-being of the poor disillusioned chumps who provided a large chunk of the exit vote (see Trump and the US farmers/blue collar workers for a similar example).
(for the record I also am not keen on the EU response either and think it is an institution with huge flaws...)
Tony Blair and his deal with Gordon Brown?
It’s just a feature of the UK parliamentary system where we do not vote for a PM, we vote for the party.
May became Prime Minister in this way, as did Major - I have no problem with the process, just the potential outcome in this particular scenario.
Also, strictly speaking we elect representatives as individuals, albeit with party affiliations, we don't vote for political parties. There is nothing to stop your elected representative changing political party affiliation whilst in the House, as happened most recently with Carswell leaving UKIP to sit as an independent.
billyboy
Subscriber
Poop scoopI too thought that the European Court provided a good buffer for some of the injustices in the UK.
Perhaps it could adjudicate on your assertion that you ‘know’ why everybody who voted leave voted as they did?
I don’t think you would win!
Firstly,I only have one name. Like Sting.
Secondly your posts off topic.
Thirdly, you believe in alien overlords or something so are beyond redemption.
Next.
Moggy won a well deserved '2018 dick of the year' on the Last Leg
He also tweeted out one of his massive lies that dangerously feeds I to the Brexiteers myth that a hard brexit is fine
Sadly 1000s of his followers are dim gullibile enough to believe his lies, even though the article he linked to contradicts him
https://paulbernal.wordpress.com/2018/12/22/fake-with-jake/
It seems that the UK* is now locked in thrall to cartoonish villainy.
*Not sure if still the correct term.
Has it been pointed out that his constituency voted to Remain?
A majority is a majority and in this case that majority was anything but insignificant and there was no other half there was a majority and a minority , that’s how voting works .
Democracy means representation. Not winner takes all, that it tyranny of the majority. Failure to give balance to the weighting of opinion / vote is destined for failure. A small vote leave win is not a signal to drive off a cliff.
Democracy means representation. Not winner takes all, that it tyranny of the majority. Failure to give balance to the weighting of opinion / vote is destined for failure. A small vote leave win is not a signal to drive off a cliff.
Unfortnately I don't think Rees Moog and his tory nutter mates see democracy the same way you do.
Leave Jacob Grease-Mopp alone..... he's just a classic example that misery loves company...
Always standing up JRM? All those years in private school must have taken its toll? A busted cat flap...
I know already got me coat...
Are you guys seriously saying, that had the 2016 referendum achieved the opposite result by the same margin, HMG would have done anything other than ignore the 48 percent totally and remain in the EU?
There is a double standard operating and it is designed to ensure that a minority triumph against the wishes of the majority. I would not vote for JRM, but I am grateful that he is one of the few public voices speaking out against the establishment’s attempt to thwart the UK’s exit from the EU.
On Any Questions he said that one referendum was enough to establish and then carry out the will of the people.
He is clearly mistaken as when May came back with a deal that clearly follows through on his wishes, he is one of the main voices shouting it down.
Democracy means representation. Not winner takes all, that it tyranny of the majority. Failure to give balance to the weighting of opinion / vote is destined for failure. A small vote leave win is not a signal to drive off a cliff.
It must be nice to make your definition of democracy fit your own agenda however when faced with a binary choice , as was the case with Brexit then you have to go with the will of the majority .
It must be nice to make your definition of democracy fit your own agenda however when faced with a binary choice , as was the case with Brexit then you have to go with the will of the majority .
It's because of the previous binary choice that we need a second vote. I bet no two brexit supporters want the same thing. What's your idea of democracy? Which ever brexit voice shouts loudest is the kind of brexit we get.
Theresa May wishes to propose a Brexit deal and Mogg is calling for her head. What brexit does he want? and I know for a fact it appeared on NO ballot paper.
I think he wants a Brexit where the UK is free from any major control by the EU. May’s agreement does not deliver that. Given that the majority voted to leave the EU in 2016, I don’t think it is an unreasonable position to adopt.
It should be possible to have European Trade without an EU Commission and an EU Parliament which are increasingly moving towards taking away the rights of individual member states, and appropriating that power to themselves at the centre. To do this the EU is using trade as a device to blackmail states into compliance with that ever more powerful centre. The inevitable next step was to get themselves an army to enforce their power over member states, and you will note that they are now taking steps towards that. The majority of us in the UK don’t like that business model. I welcome any voice that speaks out against the establishment’s attempts to keep us under the control of this foreign power against the expressed wishes of the majority.
Only the other day I saw people that were FORCED to live in a cul-de-sac. Not for them the right to live on a good british street or road.
We might as well round them up and send them to the eu concentration camps.
The majority of us in the UK don’t like that business model. I welcome any voice that speaks out against the establishment’s attempts to keep us under the control of this foreign power against the expressed wishes of the majority.
good grief
Well hello, hello billyboy
It should be possible to have European Trade without an EU Commission and an EU Parliament which are increasingly moving towards taking away the rights of individual member states, and appropriating that power to themselves at the centre. To do this the EU is using trade as a device to blackmail states into compliance with that ever more powerful centre. The inevitable next step was to get themselves an army to enforce their power over member states, and you will note that they are now taking steps towards that. The majority of us in the UK don’t like that business model. I welcome any voice that speaks out against the establishment’s attempts to keep us under the control of this foreign power against the expressed wishes of the majority.
What a sad and paranoid take on the EU. Many people regard the EU as people who are certainly not foreign and not something enforced upon a series of countries. Get back to the Daily Mail or the Express.
The views held by JRM and Brexiters is more foreign to me than EU citizens. Perhaps it is time to split the UK up as best as can be managed into brexit and remain areas with each deciding their own future plans.
I almost admire anyone that can type about Rees-Mogg taking on the establishment with a straight face.
I almost admire anyone that can type about Rees-Mogg taking on the establishment with a straight face.
Indeed - especially when his dad literally wrote the book on disaster capitalism.
The majority of us in the UK don’t like that business model.
17m/66m said something about it, was there another survey?
Our grandson got a Frog in a Box as one of his Xmas presents
We've christened the limp green creature Jacob Rees Frog
I'd recommend that for folk who want an insight into how JRM thinks, to read his dad's book "The Sovereign Individual"
It was written in 97 and is mostly a history lesson and a field guide to how to offshore your massive wealth away from those pesky govts who want to tax you. Libertarian/right wing fantasy about free markets in the information age.
Keeps getting a mention, is there a free version, I don't think they need the royalties 😉
It reminds me also of some of the discussions of the American Dream which is used to help keep the poor voting for policies that hold them back. You need just enough common man does good/gets rich to perpetuate the myth that all you need is hard work and the system lets you win.
Rees-Frogg needs the likes of the gullibile billyboy who's laughable misunderstanding of trade & the EU keeps him in power & his wealth safely away from the plebs
Unfortunately there are literally millions of billyboys in the UK that continue to keep the tories such as Rees-Mogg in positions of power.
How can people believe we could trade with the EU without maintaining a whole plethora of EU standards and regulations and also continue to adopt any new ones going forward
Did they think the EU would change their systems to suit What we choose to do?
My FIL is like this. We do t want EU regulations and rules, we just want to trade with them. Good luck with that.
I welcome any voice that speaks out against the establishment’s attempts to keep us under the control of this foreign power against the expressed wishes of the majority.
You are a ****ing deluded idiot.
It's a bit like meeting the French in the holy grail, we ain't getting very far, whatever we have to offer they already have one
Meanwhile JRM and his stinking rich mates continue to get richer.
"I welcome any voice that speaks out against the establishment’s attempts to keep us under the control of this foreign power against the expressed wishes of the majority"
By the same logic, do you think the British government should relinquish control of Northern Ireland, then?
If the people of NI ask for it... Yes.
According to this they very well might.
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/poll-northern-ireland-voters-will-back-united-ireland-after-brexit-37275256.html
I'm curious as to what sort of thought process leads someone to believe that JRM has the unique power to discern precisely what 17.4 million voters were thinking when they ticked the same "leave the EU" box. Why him, not May, nor Corbyn, Hoey, Johnson, Hannan, Farage, Patel, Stuart, Raab, Hammond, Starmer? Most of them demonstrably have different ideas as to what brexit "really" means, but apparently it is reasonable to deduce that 17.4 million people all agree with JRM, despite no-one ever asking them.
By the same logic, do you think the British government should relinquish control of Northern Ireland, then?
If his username is anything to go by then I doubt it.
Point One. I do not vote Tory. I am not propping up JRM.
Point Two. If you think the EU is your friend, then you have not been following the news these past several decades.
Oh, I follow the news. I am also working with someone in Germany and Sweden (though actually they are US and Danish citizens originally at least) and being paid in Euros. My wife is in almost daily email contact with two more Germans, one French and a Brit or two. These people are our colleagues and friends.
Anyone who thinks the EU is in any way hostile to our interests needs to get out more. There is a whole world out there of people who really aren't on our side. Putin and Trump are both pro-brexit. Why do you think that is?
That's a lot of noise billyboy
If you think the EU is your friend, then you have not been following the news these past several decades.
The EU is my friend. If it were not for EU freedom of movement then I would in all likelihood not have the lovely French SIL that I do. I also have 3 or 4 close friends originally from Europe as a result of their freedom to work and live in the UK.
Ahh billyboy, i am sure (based upon hard evidence) that the Tory party has since i started work in 1979 done me significantly more ecomomic damage that the dreaded EU.
You have been fed shit by facebook, daily mail, Bannon, JRM, Boris the * wit, Arron Banks, the Express.
Once again the "elite" have utilised the poor to gain ecomomic control.
You need to wake the * up and understand the "enemy within" READ what these people say JRM cheap shoes for your kids and, Tim shit for brains Wetherspoons 37p off your burger...
You have been conned plain and simple, the EU is the bogey man and all that bollocks.
Now my business will benefit from Brexit, if we have a hard Brexit i will make a small fortune, i can survive without it and i am happy to forego that additional wealth if it means other folk dont suffer - unlike JRM and the vast majority of the horrible ****s behind Brexit.
If you think JRM is your friend then you are truly ****ed..... he wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire, although he might ask his Nanny to call the Fire Brigade to prevent any unpleasent smell.
FFS there are a lot of working class people need to get a grip.
I think you're making observations about the EU but interpreting them the wrong way, Billyboy (I assume your pseudo is a Clockwork Orange reference and appropriate).
Trade wars were part of the frictions that led to real wars in Europe. To work a trade zone needs rules, laws that help to keep the playing field level. If one country wants to make production of cheese cheaper by not applying good hygiene practice then there needs to be a law to stop them selling it to other countries. Free trade without rule doesn't work. It's not blackmail, it's the same rules for all. If you don't like the rules then **** off, which is where Brexit comes in.
There isn't a European army to punish member states, there's military cooperation to defend the whole block and its interests. If you don't want to participate don't expect help. for about 70 years Britain has been in the habit of entering into conflict against European good sense and advice and caused all sorts of problems for Europe such a coping with refugees displaced by conflicts spawned by Blair's invasion of Iraq. Britain will be poorer after Brexit with less to spend on the military and need its troops to keep the peace at home. A win for world peace.
Britain has always had a veto whilst a member of this "foreign power". That'll no longer be the case. Excellent news for the EU.
I'm beginning to look forward to seeing what the EU can do without Britain around to **** up the best ideas.
Doff cap tug forelock ........vote Rees Mogg for free unicorns for the working class
Well put old man