It’s a forum not a court of law . Do you ask any of the people who agree with you to prove what they say or just me because I disagree with all of you apart from billyboy who is doing a good job of arguing his corner .
Any of you 3 i think it was aimed at, if you want to convince us give us something to go on there, otherwise the moon is made of cheese, I don't need to prove that you you cause it is.
I blame Biggles.
It’s a forum not a court of law
The minimum STW standard is at least one peer reviewed study, statistics from a verified independent source, several charts, a personal reference, disclosure of medical records and voting intentions.
I’m afraid I find the fanatical willingness of a minority of my fellow citizens to force a legitimate majority of us to live under the rule of a foreign power we have roundly rejected to be repulsive and fascist in nature.
We're not living under the rule of a foreign power. What a silly thing to say.
Rees Mogg, Farage and Johnson primarily see Brexit as a career opportunity. They don't have the skills to be effective politicians that actually get practical stuff done, but they are clever demagogues, so they've hitched themselves to a movement that gives them the opportunity to publicly preen themselves at every opportunity.
. Do you ask any of the people who agree with you to prove what they say or just me because I disagree with all of you apart from billyboy who is doing a good job of arguing his corner .
Joking aside, you were apparently a remainer a few months back. Now you're a fan of Rees Mogg?
You are not much of a Saxon, Saxonrider! A true Saxon would be on top of Senlac Hill bashing his shield and shouting “Out, out, out”.
Do you know who the Saxons were?
Do you ask any of the people who agree with you to prove what they say or just me
I assume you dont have any examples of him talking sense then and are feeling a tad defensive?
Its not unreasonable if someone says "x talks sense" to ask for some specific examples.
Rees Mogg, Farage and Johnson primarily see Brexit as a career opportunity.
Boris definitely.
Farage probably.
Rees Mogg is more dangerous though.
Could billyboy be one of our absent friends,or is he homegrown ? Every time I read his posts I hear a faint clip-clop.
Sorry BWD you are confusing me with Theresa May I have always been on the side of remain , I just think that not all of what he says is as disagreeable as others on here seem to think . The whole sorry saga reminds me of the poll tax debacle in many ways . Maggie said that she'd abolish rates but she couldn't really come up with a system that wasn't worse but she ploughed on anyway("The lady wasn't for turning") and after much misery eventually gave up .
I just think that not all of what he says is as disagreeable as others on here seem to think .
asking for trouble here... but give us an example
After 2 years I still don’t understand what Brexit supporters thought and had planned regarding the trading, customs arrangements, practicalities, technology and infrastructure arrangements with the EU at the Ireland/NI border would entail.
Your average brexit supporter probably couldn't even point to the border on a map.
I just had a vision of Jacob Rees Mogg - Steampunk Brexit Secretary.
Jean and Michel are standing outside in the sunshine awaiting the arrival of the UK negotiating team. They arrived in Brussels by High speed train and and angry at the lateness of the the UK delegates.
From the suns glare looms a huge mechanical beast. The sound is deafening, like a mechanical dragon. The BD-1 airship appears trailing a 6000 square foot Union Jack and Brittania figurehead similar to those currently displayed in the Naval fleet. The smell of burning coal and reek in the air is overwhelming to The senses. The BD-1 is named after the former PM and amateur inventor Disraeli, however is affectionately named the BeJay by the British resistance after the initials of the current foreign secretary who has an excess of hot air and a penchant for sexual acts upon animals of the swine variety.
On board the right honourable Member for the 18 century is piloting the airship himself. He has instructed his communications officer Flight Lieutenant Raab to wireless back to Prime Minister Lord Davis to inform them of his arrival. Lord Davis sips his gin cheerfully having recently overthrown Lady May From her position and is currently holding her in Pentonville Prison.
From this lofty position above the EU negotiators Jacob is sure the sight and sound of the pride of the British Air Force will strike terror into them. He commands the engine room to cease stoking the boiler for descent.
Jacob has planned meticulously for this day. His silver stakes have been sharpened to a razors edge. His crossbow and matchlock musket are in prime working order, cutting edge technology from the finest gunsmiths and forges in London. He carefully caresses the cross beneath his leather flight jacket. As backup he can call upon his extensive vocabulary of French and Latin to baffle and bemused his opponents.
Upon landing there is a brief delay as flight mechanics struggle to free a stuck door mechanism. Once overcome he confidently strides from BD-1 to view his negotiating adversaries. As he catches a glimpse however he is terrorised by the sight of Jean Claude and Michel. He tries to cover his fright as he removes his flight goggles to reveal his soot covered features. A head of sweat runs down his cheek.His plans have disintegrated to dust and he would have to think on his feet having been incorrectly informed he was to go into battle against Emperor Napoleon and Count Dracul.
Most of his thoughts evade him, but bravely he carries on and with a whimper and a dry croak manages to exhale a few words.
"Carpe Diem.....ahh. Bonjour...aahhh. Je m'appelle Jacob????"
Right.
the majority who voted for Britain to exit the EU.
A tiny, statistically insignificant majority voted to leave the EU. Why would you ride roughshod over the other half?
JRM is saying we should leave the EU. That is what the majority of UK voters said in 2016. The majority think he is right.
See above. Also, that was two years ago. Is that still the case? I assume that you'd back another referendum to find out, and respect that decision if it was no longer the case?
Do you want to be IN or OUT of the EU. The question was simple and clear. The answer was simple and clear.
Oh dear. No, no, no.
The question was simple. The answer is incredibly complicated. Which is the problem.
I said this on the EU thread a couple of days ago. Before the referendum I could understand why people thought we could just leave. But if two years after the referendum you're still sitting there going "I don't understand why we can't just leave" then you're an idiot and I suggest you go do some reading before commenting further, the reasons why we can't "just leave" are now very well documented.
I’m afraid I find the fanatical willingness of a minority of my fellow citizens to force a legitimate majority of us to live under the rule of a foreign power
We don't live "under the rule of a foreign power," that's prime Daily Express bollocks. The UK does and always has made its own laws. EU regulation which has come our way has almost exclusively been voted in favour of by the UK and in many, many cases was actually proposed by us in the first place.
It's a cliché now but I'm going to ask it anyway: which EU laws do you object to?
The EU was never going to deal with us on an honest and decent basis. They were always going to try and punish us for having the audacity to reject their rule.
The EU has been open and transparent since before the referendum about what is and isn't acceptable, and they haven't changed their minds. The notion that they are "punishing us" is more Daily Express bollocks. If it comes as a shock to you that when we leave a club we no longer get club membership benefits, then you're an idiot.
The lead story on (IIRC) the Express today is about how we'll have to pay to visit EU countries after we leave. In Dailyexpressworld this is the EU punishing us; in reality, it's an abject failure of leavers to realise that when we end freedom of movement - something that Leave wanted a lot - it applies in both directions.
Had she put serious measures in place for a no deal it would have given her leveridge.
Had she put serious measures in place for a no deal she'd have been an idiot for entertaining that as a desirable option.
JRM asked Verhofstad if he was going to put up a border. Verhofstad said he wasn’t. We are not going to either, so where is the question? The argument is over a border nobody is going to erect!
See, now I need the Malcolm Reynolds .gif
If we leave the customs union, we will need a hard border between the UK and the EU. This isn't anything to do with "punishment" or being told what to do by the EU, it's a cold hard fact of international trade. It's not just us, this is applicable globally. If nobody is going to erect a border then, ipso facto, we cannot leave the customs union. This is what the backstop arrangement is all about.
if you ask an entire country if they are willing to be ruled by a confederation of foreign states (out of 751 seats, we have 73- it is de facto rule by foreign states), and the majority decision is NO, then the emphasis must be on getting OUT. The imperative is to make sure we are not ruled against our will by this confederation of foreign states.
Out of 28 member states we hold a tenth of all seats? That's better than I'd realised.
Going back to the start here, what if the majority is now yes? Would you happily go "oh, ok then" and back remaining? Y'know, if it turns out that it's the will of the people?
The EU was never going to deal with us on an honest and decent basis. They were always going to try and punish us for having the audacity to reject their rule
No one really actually believes this sort of horse shit do they?
No one really actually believes this sort of horse shit do they?
It does appear so
Cougar,
I’m sorry if you didn’t understand the question asked of you in the Referendum.
In essence it was... Do you consent to be ruled by a foreign power?
I don’t. The majority don’t.
That is it.
You want to force us to be ruled by the foreign power the majority have said they don’t want to be ruled by.
Trust me, however much you think JRM is a ****er, you are worse.
where's the report button? I've never clicked it before.
I followed in my grandfather's footsteps to pursue a career in breaking down barriers and international cooperation. Are you really accusing me of being the insular, wall building one?
Why the heck am I feeding the troll?
edit: did a mod just tidy that up? if so, ta! 🙂
I’m sorry if you didn’t understand the question asked of you in the Referendum.
I understood it just fine, thanks.
In essence it was… Do you consent to be ruled by a foreign power?
No it wasn't, because we aren't. Do pay attention, I just explained this.
Which "foreign power" rules do you object to?
Well it's nice to know the Russian troll bots are paying for "P" these days 😉
If you saw all that text under the leave box then maybe get an eye test.
We all know there is only one foreign power we want to be ruled by
edit: did a mod just tidy that up? if so, ta!
Yeah, he got a warning for that. Bang out of order.
good 🙂
deserved it. thought the loctite would have come out before I clicked submit.
If Saxon rider is a true saxon then he is a descendent of German invaders!
funny thing is... Billyboy is a brand of johnnies in Germany and Austria etc.
apt to name oneself after an EU barrier 😉
@ mods feel free to remove this (but i thought it was entertaining 😉 )
A tiny, statistically insignificant majority voted to leave the EU. Why would you ride roughshod over the other half?
A majority is a majority and in this case that majority was anything but insignificant and there was no other half there was a majority and a minority , that's how voting works .
Also, that was two years ago. Is that still the case? I assume that you’d back another referendum to find out, and respect that decision if it was no longer the case
That's a bit rich , if leave wins it's going to take a few years to implement so 2 years down the line the vote needs revisiting as it's no longer current but if you vote to stay in then it just happens as we are already in so effectively the vote is implemented instantly .
The EU was never going to deal with us on an honest and decent basis. They were always going to try and punish us for having the audacity to reject their rule.
Photograph from his last negotiation meeting showing the rocky time Dominic Raab got when trying to have the audacity to stand up to the EU Empire before resigning as Brexit secretary
The pained expression on his face here is the result of having just been informed by Emperor Juncker of the strategic importance of the Port of Dover to his sides trading relations.
That’s a bit rich , if leave wins it’s going to take a few years to implement so 2 years down the line the vote needs revisiting as it’s no longer current but if you vote to stay in then it just happens as we are already in so effectively the vote is implemented instantly .
Hang on, it was completely obvious to everyone wasn't it that the process was on a 2 year clock, it was a time limited negotiation that got entered into by the choice of those in charge.
At the end of that period we knew we would need to vote through and accept that deal.
Now it's crunch time, it's exactly the moment to be making sure this is the right course for the country. Anyway this is now an EU thread isn't it.
I am of the firm belief that the Leave vote was predominantly a protest vote.
Years of austerity to bale out banks, parts of the UK forgotten since the 80's, social care and the NHS being ripped apart.
All real and genuine reasons to DEMAND change. I would have voted for that sort of change too! In a heart beat.
The destroyingly sad fact is that, that demand for change was usurped by Cameron, the likes of Farage and the Daily Mail and turned on its head.
The EU is a force for good in the UK. If anything it has tried to moderate some of the Tories worst excesses via the ECJ etc.
The EU were and still are the patsies for a morally bereft Tory government. This whole sorry mess was meant to unify the Conservatives once and for all over the EU. F*** me.... the irony.
JRM is the worst of the Tory party distilled and bottled. Contemptible and dangerous.
Billyboy. You are delusional.
A majority is a majority and in this case that majority was anything but insignificant and there was no other half there was a majority and a minority , that’s how voting works .
If you were say trialling a new drug and your results were 52:48 in favour versus placebo it'd never get out the door. That's not a majority, it's just statistical error. If "leave" won by a majority of one vote, would you happily toss out the wishes of the other half of the voters? That's no democracy I recognise.
If you have a vote with a mandatory outcome then you require a supermajority (see general elections), if you have an advisory one then you do not but, well, it's an opinion poll. That's how voting works. Sorry.
Anyway this is now an EU thread isn’t it.
Yeah, that's a good point. I should probably get my moderator hat.
<mod>
Billyboy and RN, I'll afford you the right of reply because I don't approve of selective censorship. Everyone else, back on topic or take it to the EU thread please.
</mod>
Roger that, Cougar.👍
So the result was acceptable to everybody but those who didn't get their own way . How big a majority would you have been happy with , given that this was not a trial for a new drug and everybody knew the rules before they voted .
@Ramsey Neil
First, most countries that regularly use referendums have a threshold majority set at, say 55% for any vote that seeks to overturn a status quo and is effectively irreversible.
Second, I think it's perfectly sensible to have a second referendum, based on the fact that we now have a better idea of the options available, rather than some nebulous promise of gold bar shitting unicorns that the Brexiteers were promising.
JP
Cougar has spoken guys. He wont be happy if we don't play ball. The thread is about the 18th century pencil. Some people say he is:-
I’m sorry if you didn’t understand the question asked of you in the Referendum.
In essence it was… Do you consent to be ruled by a foreign power?
I don’t. The majority don’t.
if that is your understanding of the referendum vote then you are a ****ing idiot
Back on topic and a reply to Saxonrider. My post was somewhat in jest but some followers of Rome do subscribe to my tongue in cheek view.
Mr Rees Mog could not be considered a Christian individual. He may well attend church regularly but. . .
He fails on “judge not lest ye yourself be judged” and “. . . Love your neighbour as yourself”.
I do not consider myself a Christian as I am unable to hold to these tenets and without them “I am but a sounding gong”
Totally agree.
Moggs version of religion is simply a self serving world view. Bent to fit whatever his current needs are.
Morality was left at the door by him years ago.
"I think is rather uplifting"
JRM on food banks.
He probably thinks there should be more of them.
Poop scoop
I too thought that the European Court provided a good buffer for some of the injustices in the UK.
Perhaps it could adjudicate on your assertion that you ‘know’ why everybody who voted leave voted as they did?
I don’t think you would win!
Moggs version of religion is simply a self serving world view. Bent to fit whatever his current needs are.
I was going to comment on this but Poobah pulled on the choker chain.
I imagine that Jacob would be perfectly happy torturing helpless homeless people whilst at the same time politely and gently explaining to his victims, in between their screams, why this was necessary for their own good.
And that god had told him to do it.
Perhaps it could adjudicate on your assertion that you ‘know’ why everybody who voted leave voted as they did?
Many were asked, plenty willingly told people about it, completed opinion polls etc. Plenty of info out there if you want to search for it. I'm sure the ERG and JRM didn't bother to find out.
Moggy is just a liar
It's a shame that so many are gullibile enough to believe him so readily, just because he's the pinnacle of the establishment elite
https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-new-european/20180322/282630328187458
So the result was acceptable to everybody but those who didn’t get their own way
That wasn't what I was saying, rather that it's both wrong and immoral to reject the other half as irrelevant on the back of a slim majority. We've got nearly a 50:50 split of opinion, surely the just thing to do here is try and reconcile both sides, rather than "we won you lost shut up and get on with it two world wars and one world cup doo dah"?
How big a majority would you have been happy with
I already answered this in the post you replied to.
Anyway. I'm not continuing this discussion any further here. If you want to continue, ask me in the EU thread and I'll happily reply.
