[Closed] I've always liked America and this is why....

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I appear to be crying..

Rachel

Thanks for the link.

And this is why I don't

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/technology-16810312

Maureen of Walla Walla for president!

I appear to be crying..

A few people I know who've watched it have said the same thing.

One heartfelt speech does not represent the country or it views.

One heartfelt speech does not represent the country or it views.

Neither does one quote from an ign'ant redneck about towelheads.

A bit Oprah, but hey, her heart's in the right place.

Sadly, there will still be many millions of Americans opposing gay marriage because "the Bible tells us that a marriage is between a man and a woman."

And this is why I don't

An unsurprising knee-jerk reaction from US Homelands..

However thats the way they are so you either accept it & play by their rules or dont bother going.

They can be a very paranoid bunch (& not without good reason sometimes) but on the whole they are a very decent people.

Mind making him pay the costs was harsh though, I would have thought that the fact he was refused entry was enough..

dont bother going.

That's my choice. LOads of ski resorts I'd love to visit in the US of A but they shall remain on the "to do" list in favour of Europe, Canada and Japan

but the point I was making is that while the example Greg posted is noteworthy due to (sadly) being out of the ordinary, the authoritarian attitude in the link I posted is quite prevalant

the authoritarian attitude in the link I posted is quite prevalant

This will always be debatable; I would argue that there are greater civil liberties in the US than the UK.

To be fair if in this day in age the fact that he published that phrase where anybody could read it means he is incredibly thick and naive to think that the yanks wouldn't do anything if they read it.

the authoritarian attitude in the link I posted is quite prevalant

I couldnt agree with you more. Anyone in a uniform it seems displays scarily aggressive attitudes, from Forest Rangers to the Highway Patrol.

My experiences with these & others have led me to give anyone in the US in uniform VERY wide berth when Im there. The exception seems to be service personnel, Ive never had a problem with any of them...

geetee1972 - Member

the authoritarian attitude in the link I posted is quite prevalant

This will always be debatable; I would argue that there are greater civil liberties in the US than the UK.

teh US locks up more of its population for less than any other country, 1/3 of the population have little effective healthcare, tehy kill doctors who carry out terminations. They execute mentally in and people with learnig difficulties, they torture.

Nice speech, fair play to her..
Never been so scared/intimidated as I have going through US customs.. A
Bonkers.

They execute mentally in and people with learnig difficulties, they torture.

Is that some sort of ironic self parody?

But then on the other hand, they have much greater freedom of speech, their citizens cannot be locked up without charge for 28 days, they cannot stop and search you without having a justifiable reason to do it, they have black man as President and a woman as Secretary of State (oh and they previously had a black female in that role to), they have THE best further education system in the world....

They do not have greater freedom of speech. Infact tehy have less. You cannot be stopped and searched here without good cause

The USA is a wonderful country. It's a pity that some people in this country (and others) seem to find it impossible to distinguish between the United States of America, the US Government and the American people.

I've also found that those Brits who hold anti-American sentiment tend to be the types who've never knowingly been right about anything. Oh, they don't tend to have been there either.

very heartfelt form of democracy

Hmm.. how about democracy so completely poisoned by rabid partisanism that truth and reason are lost and everyone spends all their time trying to get one over on the opposition like some kind of schoolyard fight..?

they have THE best further education system in the world

Lolz!

tehy kill doctors who carry out terminations

Is that a national policy, or the work of a murderer?

they have THE best further education system in the world..if you can afford it

TJ breathe like any country it has its good points and its bad points

Freedom of speech is enshrined in the constitution and they tae it seriously generally ..unless you are a livberal or a communist or an aetheist so TJ be careful if you go there 😉

they don't tend to have been there either.

they have THE best further education system in the world

Lolz!

They do and the evidence is in the fact that they export their further education system to more people than any other country. In fact, education is their largest export.

They do and the evidence is in the fact that they export their further education system to more people than any other country

Eh? How is that an indication of 'best'ness?

they don't tend to have been there either.

I've been. I enjoyed certain aspects, but not others. Can't say that I'll be going back anytime soon though, as their attitude to "security" does not entice me to spend my money there

They execute mentally in and people with learnig difficulties, they torture.

You sure about this bit TJ?

&

tehy kill doctors who carry out terminations

Im pretty damn sure that NONE of my US friends have ever done this..

Perhaps you mean that a few extremists have sadly murdered someone whose beliefs differ to theirs..

Hang on does that sound familiar? Does this mean then that a nation can be defined by the actions & motives of a few radicals..Shurely shome mishtake..

yet they are lower than cuba for literacy rates.

You have shown that they are good at selling stuff that does not mean it is the best. It just makes it the most commercially successfully...what a shame this is how you judge best.

Wow this thread has drifted FAST

There is no one so educated as an educated American, no one so friendly and as polite as a polite American.

There is no one so insular and dumb as a dumb American, no one so violent or so bigoted as some other American pondlife.

I like the place, been many times. The polarisation of attitudes, politics, religion and behaviour takes a bit of getting used to if you come from an old-world country where we believe in very little and are cynical about everything else.

I've been there a lot, and not as a tourist either. There are good aspects to America but there are bad ones too. The key point is this - if you have money, things are fantastic. If not, then they are pretty bad.

Now you might not think that the latter situation detracts from the former and consider the good when arguing about greatness. However I cannot ignore the latter - it is a terrible stain on the country as a whole.

but the point I was making is that while the example Greg posted is noteworthy due to (sadly) being out of the ordinary, the authoritarian attitude in the link I posted is quite prevalant

As someone who has to use a foreign passport to travel in and out of this country I can quite authoratively comment that I have more respect for, and receive better treatment from, US immigration staff than their UK equivalents.

mrlebowski - Member

They execute mentally in and people with learnig difficulties, they torture.

Oh yes
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse ]Abu_Ghraib[/url] and tortures were continued after the scandal broke with teh explicit consent of the secretary of state. also see Guantanamo

[url= http://www.daa.org.uk/index.php?mact=Blogs,cntnt01,showentry,0&cntnt01entryid=248&cntnt01returnid=98 ]Excecution of people withlearning difficulties[/url]

excecution of people with severe mental illness

http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/death-penalty/us-death-penalty-facts/death-penalty-and-mental-illness

Very good Stoat. There is a huge diversity of opinion and attitudes in the Old US of A, there are parts that are screwed up, but the same could be said of most countries. However there has been to my mind a build up and power base of Neo Cons over the last 20 odd years, and that has detracted from the sheer openness of the country. And it perhaps has brought upon it the security issues. Others use to see it as a "fair" world policeman standing up for democracy and human rights, but that has long gone, being replaced with self interest and business. However, give it a few years and it could come back.... Anyone that has seen the America Cemetry overlooking Omaha Beach will be harshly reminded what those guys did for all the world.

US border agents aren't particularly bad, they just tend to be grumpy as hell which can be a little off-putting, that's all.

Sadly, there will still be many millions of [s]Americans[/s] people opposing gay marriage because "the Bible tells us that a marriage is between a man and a woman."

Fixed that for you.

And the UK hasn't been involved in ANY torture has it?!

Some good old quality America bashing again. 🙄

US border agents aren't particularly bad, they just tend to be grumpy as hell which can be a little off-putting, that's all.

I have to say that in the past my experience of US border control has been pretty dismal, but on a trip to Florida last month, I have to say, that the immigration guys were fantastic; with a genuine sense of humour and genuinely welcoming manner.

As an American friend posted on facebook this morning

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I have to say that in the past my experience of US border control has been pretty dismal, but on a trip to Florida last month, I have to say, that the immigration guys were fantastic; with a genuine sense of humour and genuinely welcoming manner.

I think that most border controls are pretty dismal and staffed by miserable people, but the worst for me are Australia and UK.

Is this thread rascist? You cannot tar a whole race becuase of the actions of a few! If you can then others could well see us as a bunch of warmongering child molesting crazy football hooligans.
I work for a small US company, have been there many times and have some good friends over there, mainly in Michigan and Seattle. The mountain bikers I met in San Diego were a great bunch, doing lots of charity work.
I think most of their politicians are totally corrupt (name somewhere they aren't?!) and there are some crazy rednecks, religious zealots etc. I also think LA is one of the worst cities I ahve ever visited and second only to Kingston Jamaica as to how unsafe I felt there. Same as many countries there are good and bad. Rules, places and people. Please don't tar all Americans as bad, if you do you it is possible you portray yourself as an ignorant racist

Of course we would never imprison or execute those with mental issues.... now would we? oops Derek Bentley ....

Is this thread rascist?

yeah, if you want 🙄

nacho - Member
Please don't tar all Americans as bad, if you do you it is possible you portray yourself as an ignorant racist

Well said - some people seem only too eager to put the jerk into kneejerk 😆

Its easier to poke the problems of other countries than face up to the problems of the country you live in. For most though, they take the easy rose-tinted spectacle view.

The vast majority of the Americans I've met have been great - friendly and welcoming. And their top universities are definitely world-beating - I'm not sure I'd extend that to the state universities (in general), though. Would have loved to have studied at the University of California's San Diego campus, though 🙂

University of California's San Diego campus,

My uncle was Professor of Physics there in the 60s and 70s!

Americans are great. I like them and their country. There is something of a battle going on between the vocal and religious middle america and the more cosmopolitan and liberal costal cities. I think that, in the long run, the liberals will win out. Religious fundementalism of any type is bad for business and Americans love business. The looney from Alaska had a new one torn for her and is widely regarded as a joke by all the Americans I know. So although vocal as the fundies are, when it comes to the courts and so on the US seems to stand by the constitution.

I don't want to come across as "pro American", I'm not, I think some their far right politicans are amongst the most despicable people on the planet. BUT you can't just criticise a nation - if you do IMHO it comes across as racist.

I love the states, think its an amazing place and would love to live there - pity its so hard to get in.

I can't stand UK, I want out of this hole as soon as possible....

I think some their far right politicans are amongst the most despicable people on the planet

Compared to ours who are all good chaps?

It is a different place, but not that different. It is much bigger and is more insular - because it can be. The only reason a lot of Brits have been to other countries is to get cheap booze and sunshine - if they could be obtained in Blackpool they would still go there. We have plenty of loonies and nasty people - they just have a big enough country for them to get together in bigger numbers and be more vocal.

I can't stand UK, I want out of this hole as soon as possible....

don't let the door hit you on your arse on the way out

Compared to ours who are all good chaps?

@ Too Tall, no certainly not, I didn't want to insinuate that. We have some very dodgy people here as well but I believe over there they have more influence, definatley more power and often use religion to justify their views. Not saying I'm right, just the impression I get which gives me my point of view.

most despicable people on the planet

Bit strong.... but I see where you are coming from.

However just remeber that we, and the rest of the "free word" owe them a huge debt. they were dragged from their isolationist policy by the Japanese, and won the war. Without theit technology and power the Cold War would have had a far different outcome.

Far from perfect, but hey, there is not a country that is.

don't let the door hit you on your arse on the way out

How witty...How thought provoking....my, you really are quite the comic.

and often use religion to justify their views

Didn't Tony go to Iraq because God told him to?

I love the states, think its an amazing place and would love to live there - pity its so hard to get in.

I can't stand UK, I want out of this hole as soon as possible....

Bye.... try swimming over, wont take long.

most despicable people on the planet

Bit strong.... but I see where you are coming from.

So you think the far right aren't despicable, or you like misquoting people?

BUT you can't just criticise a nation - if you do IMHO it comes across as racist.

OK.
But its not racist to disagree with US military foreign policy and associated attitudes to foreigners, which appear to show racist tendencies themself.

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An SAS soldier has refused to fight in Iraq and has left the Army over the "illegal" tactics of United States troops and the policies of coalition forces.
After three months in Baghdad, Ben Griffin told his commander that he was no longer prepared to fight alongside American forces.
He said he had witnessed "dozens of illegal acts" by US troops, claiming they viewed all Iraqis as "untermenschen" - the Nazi term for races regarded as sub-human.

loum again you don't want to go slinging mud, the UK has its own fair share of war atrocities to be shameful about.

flange - Member

most despicable people on the planet

Bit strong.... but I see where you are coming from.

So you think the far right aren't despicable, or you like misquoting people?

I have neither misquoted someone, nor said that the far right are not dispicable. But to suggest that they are the most dispicable people on the planet is maybe taking it slightly too far IMHO, or am I not allowed an opinion?

loum - selective news articles about select individuals in the military to prove your selective point is a bit, erm, narrow.

I know far more US military personnel who would be / are horrified by such events than those who would go along with them. Every nation has minorities who do the wrong thing when serving their countries.

I have neither misquoted someone, nor said that the far right are not dispicable. But to suggest that they are the most dispicable people on the planet is maybe taking it slightly too far IMHO, or am I not allowed an opinion?

I think he said far right politicians are the most despicable people on the planet. They're politicians for a start....

@loum, true, I personally disagree with US (and often UK) military foreign policy and I'm sure there are plenty of bad eggs in the US forces (same as any army or to be fair any large group of people)
I think my point was some people generalise about the US yet if others were to do so about say French/Chinese/Indians/Jamaicans it would be construed as racist by the very people who make the generalisations. (Sorry if that isn't clear but end of lunch now, best I go do some work) Might be back later if I get chance as I find this thread quite interesting

flange - Member

I have neither misquoted someone, nor said that the far right are not dispicable. But to suggest that they are the most dispicable people on the planet is maybe taking it slightly too far IMHO, or am I not allowed an opinion?

I think he said far right politicians are the most despicable people on the planet. They're politicians for a start....

I think people can see where I got quote from 😀 Hardly from an obscure publication, it was 2 posts up.

Politicians they are, but still IMHO not the most despicable people on the planet, though they are certainly well down the road. 🙂

Those that support them and give them power as just as bad.

There are plenty of other lowlifes out there that are worse.

The looney from Alaska had a new one torn for her and is widely regarded as a joke by all the Americans I know.

Sure, but I'd imagine that's because the Americans you know are the more liberal ones, who've travelled a bit and have seen different cultures.

I've worked with Americans who are hugely insular (in a way I've never seen in the UK or Europe), and fulfill just about every stereotype you could imagine.

But it's not just the ill-educated; there are any number of very polite middle-class Americans that I've worked with who, (like their Daily Mail-reading counterparts in the UK), keep their xenophobia and bigotry well-hidden. Once you get to know them a little better you learn the codes - if anyone starts to talk about 'states' rights', Obama being a 'food stamp president' or ever mentions the 'mainstream media', you know very well that although they're not necessarily a KKK member, there's definitely a Tea Party nutjob hidden just under the surface.

This is not to say that Britain's any better in terms of beliefs. But what we achieve with a little more success is keeping religion out of politics, and keeping the State out of our personal lives. Most of us (rightly) don't give a stuff about who marries who, or the gender of who you choose to share a bed with. The number of people who call themselves religious is lower as a proportion. We're a little less in thrall to the flag, and a LOT more cynical about our leaders (all of them, even the party we might vote for).

In short, I love America, and a very large number of the Americans I've met. I just wish there were slightly fewer people with obsessive views, and a slightly more liberal mainstream media.

They are probably very nice people but when you encounter them in large groups they instantly rub you up the wrong way. Bit like northerners really!
Love Australians though.

Those that support them and give them power as just as bad.

There are plenty of other lowlifes out there that are worse.

Here comes the tangent...

On a grand scale? I'm thinking along the lines of Bush and his entourage. Dope dealing sex trade trafficking pimps are probably pretty high on the 'nasty persons' list but do they have the far reaching effects of politicians/people of power? Along the lines of war, genocide, greed and so on. There are plenty of examples where politicians have used their powers for their own benefits

As for those voting them in, how many times have they promised something and not delivered? Or done a complete about turn on a policy or issue? How many voters are misled/influenced by the gutter press (Daily Wail) and base their vote on a supposedly informed decision?

I like the thought of the States, the insularity of it. The fact that whilst some idiot is making decisions I don't want, the States (or any large country) is so vast I can almost hide away from it. It feels like we're so crammed in here that its impossible to escape. Probably a massively simplistic POV, but we're all entitled to opinions

They are probably very nice people but when you encounter them in large groups they instantly rub you up the wrong way.

I've spent 5 months cycling in the USA meeting almost nothing but Americans and never got rubbed the wrong way.

Apart from a few dodgy drivers I found Americans to be almost universally friendly and generous. I've had no issues entering or leaving the country and the few contacts I has with cops there were fine.

Just one time at a bar beside the Missouri I was in a conversation with a female who talked about the the end of the world coming, separation of the races etc (despite a coloured guy being at the table). I really couldn't have imagined having that conversation in the UK.

In Glasgow racism isn't a problem. Religious bigotry is though. I explained to an American how in Glasgow there are two main soccer teams one of which flies the Union Jack and the other the Irish tricolour. He found the whole thing hard to believe and summed it up by saying "you mean to tell me both your teams fly the flag of a foreign power?".

They are probably very nice people but when you encounter them in large groups they instantly rub you up the wrong way.

English abroad?

@LHS, You're right that we have our own problems (past and present), but I'm not mud slinging just staying on topic (the USA) and responding to a post above. This does not mean I am proud of our own foreign military actions, but that is a different thread.

@Tootall, It's probably true that it is a minority, as you point out, but that should not stop us from discussing it. Yes I did "select" those articles to demonstrate a relevant point, in response to a post above. I came across those after reading a different article two days ago, but at 16000 words I chose not to refference it because I "selected" these to be shorter and more suitable as a summary for a forum. It's here if you want to read it: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/07/iraq-death-secret-detention-camp
Its a long read but, to me, shows that at least some of the attrocities being committed are institutional rather than by individual "bad eggs". I believe the fact that most of the evidence released of attrocities/illegal actions/war crimes concern groups rather than single lone opperators, and find it hard to believe that there is not more that is going unreported. The institutional nature of these attrocities is further demonstrated by the Punishment terms for the "whistle-blowers" being more severe than for those proved to have murdered civillians. Who are the US military treating as the bad eggs?

@Nacho, you are right:- criticising an entire nation is racist. I am not against the American people, i have a lot of respect for them and their values. However there is a massive difference in freedom between the people in "The Land Of The Free" and the peoples of US occupied countries. I disagree with their foreign military policy and how it is implemented, and also believe that more Americans would too if they knew the truth. The freedom of speech there does not appear to extend as far as critising the military.

@ flange, yes the Bush, right wing neo-cons are abhorent, full of self interest. However I do not think that they deliberately set out to destroy people or ethnically cleanse countries. Quite often there can be terrible consequences of their action. (Lets not get into the wrongs or rights of Iraq war)

Those that deliberately inflict suffering on the masses, be it mass rapings, ethnic cleansings, gunning down innocent protesters, blowing up aircraft. These to me are lower.

The fact that whilst some idiot is making decisions I don't want, the States (or any large country) is so vast I can almost hide away from it

Not really - people are making decisions that DO affect you but are thousands of miles away in a different world.

One of my favourite little corners of Americana (from Texas!):

http://atheist-experience.com/

I love Sky Atlantic

LHS, if America is so great and the UK is so awful why are you here (are you over here?). Every thread related to America you pop up and dismiss any criticism of the US and counter it with how the UK is just as bad or worse.

In your mind, is there anything wrong with America at all?

I remember a drama-doc about the American reporter who first exposed the corrupt "allowances" practices in the House of Commons.

At a moment of extreme frustration at yet again being baulked by a smirking jobsworth at the Mother of Parliaments whilst trying to access information, she started to weep. Her husband asked her what was wrong. She said "How can you stand it?" He asked, what? She said:

"Being British."

Jeepers 'American' is not a race. You can be called xenophobic but not racist.

Personally, I just can't stand the way they speak.

Lol.. but American jobsworth bureaucracy is far worse than ours, fair dos.

Jeepers 'American' is not a race.

I'm guessing you mean that 'race' implies homogeneity?

You cannot judge a whole population by it's government.

and before someone says they voted for them.. You can only vote for who is put before you.