look at single use carrier bags. all it took to enact a massive drop in usage was to charge people 5p for a bag.
Single use plastic bag donations to charity from local convenience shops have doubled form where they were in 2019 (according to defra), article today in retail news. So we are using less plastic bags in supermarkets, but more from local shops. Overall the demand for plastic bags has dropped, but it's one area where the pandemic wasnt good for the environment as people switch from larger supermarket shops to local, more frequent shopping.
I'd expect this trend to change over the course of this year.
Those suffering from increased drought and famine in the hottest parts of the world.
Humanity has over populated these areas for the last 300 years, it's not a climate issue. Its too many people living somewhere that cant support them.
The climate impact comes as the size of the uninhabitable areas increases and the capacity for habitable areas reduce. On the flip side more areas in the far north should become habitable and support larger populations.
The issue with humans is a migration one with all the hard borders we have.
I agree that change will only come from legislation.
The political system at the moment will only see the introduction of legislation if it is popular, or if it generates profit for corporations without being very unpopular.
Off the top of my head I could think of a dozen policies that could be legislated to start making real changes. Massive changes, much bigger than a few plastic bags. But these would have massive push back from the public. So the laws needed for change will only come when people are ready for it.
I wonder if high inflation, a reduction in living standards, and a shift in the boundary of acceptable inequality will be a catalyst for change.
For example, no one needs a big heavy and powerful car for private use. It would be sensible, practical and beneficial to impose a limit, for example max 2000kg, 50bhp/ton. Yes it would be slow compared to a current car, but so what, it would still do what is needed, at a base level. Practically there would be no difference. At the moment that would be unpopular. However if people can't afford new cars anymore, perhaps the new limits could be accepted, because everyone would benefit, and only the richest would loose out.
The same with flying. If only the wealthiest can afford to fly regularly, it would be more widely accepted that there should be a limit on how much we can fly.
Realistically, the only truly effective way to reduce your household’s environmental impact is not to have any children.
We don't all need to have no kids. We just need to have no more than two. Because some people will naturally not want to have kids or not be able to, then the birth rate will end up less than 2 and the population will decline.
It would be sensible, practical and beneficial to impose a limit, for example max 2000kg, 50bhp/ton. Yes it would be slow compared to a current car, but so what, it would still do what is needed, at a base level. Practically there would be no difference. At the moment that would be unpopular. However if people can’t afford new cars anymore, perhaps the new limits could be accepted, because everyone would benefit, and only the richest would loose out.
If you look at the 1950s, people in the US were driving huge cars whilst we in the UK were mostly driving tiny ones, if we had one at all. This is because we had far less disposable income, and petrol was more expensive. It's still true today to a lesser extent.
But I agree re legislation, and that is what they are attempting to do - only rather than arbitrary limits on hp and weight, they are attempting to nudge the manufacturers with legislation and guidelines. It's worked to an extent but it's not enough, because the guidelines were for whole fleets, rather than say penalties for specific cars. So my current courtesy car, a petrol Hyundai i10, is remarkably efficient returning 50-60mpg on suburban trips, I still see far too many Tuscons on the road.
Imagine if all we had avaialble was one range of cars. You can choose from three or four models, but that's all there is. Those models are as efficient as possible, they get refined and developed. You can only get them on a ten year lease (unless circumstances change e.g. you have kids), and used ones are cheaper deals. They'd be designed for durability and repairability, with cheap parts and galvanised chassis etc. We'd all be richer, the environmental impact would be much lower (since we'd be making far fewer cars) and live could continue EXACTLY as it does now.
This ☝️
Its a good time to remind ourselves that when polled on what they thought the key issues facing the country were, only 4% of the Tory membership selecting the next grand poobah thought that climate change was worthy of bothering with. They seem genuinely more worried about what effects 'wokery' and 'the lefty cabal in education' (or just education itself) are having on society. If that truly represents their values then we cant expect change to come through legislation any time soon enough.
Do you not think..
Humanity has over populated these areas for the last 300 years, it’s not a climate issue.
Is a bit contradictory to then saying...
The climate impact comes as the size of the uninhabitable areas increases and the capacity for habitable areas reduce.
But it is hard to see a good future for anyone beyond their generation.
This is sad, but true for many.
GF and I made the decision years ago that we don't want kids. One of the reasons is that we're selfish and look at our friends with kids and decided none of them are particularly happy with their new status quo. The other reason is the ongoing impact on the world's resources.
We don't fly (arrived in the UK via train to Paris and the Eurostar from Munich.... Was only €20 more than flying.... Family think I'm odd for making that decision). We ride our bikes to work, shopping, to go see friends. People think we're odd that we would rather ride our bikes for an hour than sit in a car for 20 mins to get somewhere. Sod them. I like being odd.
She's veggie and by proxy so am I for 99% "of my meals.
But where do you start. It's hard to break the status quo. People do things because that's the way they've always done it.
Be the change you want to see.
Aspire to inspire.
Aspire to inspire.
Fine words, Apart from a transatlantic flight every 5 years or so (wife's Canadian) we rarely - if ever fly, we're completely vegetarian contemplating veganism (too much processed foods currently for my liking) Our 1.5l car has done less than 10k in 2 years, and I cycle and she walks to work. Our house thermometer max is 19degs
But I don't think for a second that my lifestyle is making anyone else think about changing their's though.
Humanity has over populated these areas for the last 300 years, it’s not a climate issue.
They're absolutely linked. The more humanity in an area, the more use of resources, deforestation, pollution/emissions, loss of biodiversity and so on. Which then exacerbates the climate issue.
Could solve a lot of the world's issues with a dramatic reduction in human population...
I believe vegans/vegetarians fart more than carnivores, though maybe they dont contribute to the atmosphere as much as cows etc do.
So back in the age of the dinosaurs, we might not know what it all looked like. But we sure know what it smelled like.
😯
Fine words, Apart from a transatlantic flight every 5 years or so (wife’s Canadian) we rarely – if ever fly, we’re completely vegetarian contemplating veganism (too much processed foods currently for my liking) Our 1.5l car has done less than 10k in 2 years, and I cycle and she walks to work. Our house thermometer max is 19degs
I was thinking this through earlier.
Veggie, and aiming to cut down on dairy because I probably eat more cheese than is healthy.
House is set to 18C over most of the winter and I actively try and make the most of the passive heating from the conservatory during spring/autumn by opening and closing the door during the day so the boiler is only doing the heavy lifting for ~3 months.
I've not had a* car since 1st week of June. And before that I'd made a commitment to significantly cut my work mileage by taking the train, bikes and car sharing.
2x return flights in the last decade?
*useable, it's been broken down and parked on the drive, but I've not missed it.
This is why it annoys me when some people say they drive 20k a year, take 3 holidays, and couldn't possibly give up meat. They could quite probably do all three, they just don't want to.
This is why it annoys me when some people say they drive 20k a year, take 3 holidays, and couldn’t possibly give up meat.
Those are the people who make me feel like a complete mug for sitting there trying to peel the last bits of sellotape off a cardboard parcel before chucking it in the recycling!
they just don’t want to
Sure, and they likely never will. The lifestyle you've describe there is "normal" for lots of people, they don't think that they're contributing to environmental damage, they're just average folks*. They don't see themselves as being the "problem that needs solving" Most individuals aren't going to decide to do this, and companies simply won't.
Like I said it's no good pestering people to change their habits and then "allow" Peruvian blueberries to be on sale 2-for-1 in November, that's just unfair.
*and average folks shouldn't have to take un-average measures. Folks should be left to get on with their lives. If we (people who care about this shit) want folks to come with us, we have to make it as easy for them as we can.
But forcing a change to what is average is rather unpopular. Politicians don't want to do unpopular things.
It's all about education.
We can but hope that the young generation at school, are learning about this climate crisis and pass on knowledge to their elders, many of whom don't realise that we all need to change.
A lot of the things we need to do are common sense, which is in short supply.
But forcing a change to what is average is rather unpopular.
So don't force them, make the alternatives more attractive. If electric cars were half the price of petrol ones we could change the way people drive in a decade of so if that's what we want. Most people are agnostic about their travel - especially for work and will typically take the cheapest and easiest and most direct route. I'd bet money that if trams and buses were free, the roads would be empty by the end of the first week.
This problem needs more than nudges.
Also the solutions should be fair and not further increase inequality.
Also the solutions should be fair and not further increase inequality.
At best yes I agree, but y'know? At some point you need to make a decision. If you price most folks out of flying it will do more good than the fact that you've further restricted it to the very very rich. I mean, I'd like to own a Canaletto, but I ain't ever gonna, cause I ain't rich enough. If flying becomes the new "buying art" then so be it. Let's just make peace with it and move on
Sorry, wasn't clear, what I meant was even without climate change population growth in marginal areas has out stripped what the environment can sustain. You then have global warming on top that has turbo charged the situation.
So as well as climate change (massive challenge) we continue to have an over population problem in some areas (and over consumption in others).
But that just means that it is something people aspire to. What will make change is that selfish behavior becomes socially unacceptable.
I actively try and make the most of the passive heating from the conservatory during spring/autumn by opening and closing the door during the day so the boiler is only doing the heavy lifting for ~3 months.
I'd seriously consider some kind of heat exchange system for circulating heat. You could test it with two cheap rads from some classifieds, some garden hose, a pump and some automation widgets. Worth a try to see if it helps.
Our house is three storeys, it gets warm on the top floor and cold on the ground floor in winter, and the same in summer. I want a bi-directional fan and some ducting, with some sensors so I can move the cold air upstairs in summer and the warm air downstairs in winter. I reckon this would be great. I might actually implement it this year, with the high prices. I think I can run the vertical ducting through the box bit where the pipes go.
I wonder if that (heat exchange) set up could be made to work using unused open fire place chimneys?
I’d seriously consider some kind of heat exchange system for circulating heat. You could test it with two cheap rads from some classifieds, some garden hose, a pump and some automation widgets. Worth a try to see if it helps.
Doesn't really need it, the floor of the conservatory is black so absorbs a lot of heat into the concrete slab. By the time I leave for work it's usually the same temp as the house on a sunny day even late into the year so I just open the kitchen door and let convection do the rest. Then close it again when the sun puts that that (south by south east facing) wall into shade about an hour before dusk.
All though taxing bad stuff, may be the only solution for some stuff. It really doesn't help with changing peoples attitudes. Apart from making these things aspirational, the rich have got away with thinking they can do whatever they like in this world and avoid consequences, just by buying their way through. This is something that needs to stop, you shouldn't be allowed to do things to the detriment of large numbers of other people by chucking cash around it needs to be illegal and morally unacceptable. People need to be held accountable, and no amount of money is going to compensate for making the world a worse place. So they shouldn't be allowed to do it anymore.
It’s all about education.
This. It beggars belief that it’s this late in the day and yet a good majority of people that I speak to/read don’t know what causes/what are the main drivers of AGW. Neither are aware of the projected effects @1.5 deg, 2.0 deg etc.
They don’t know what to limit/change/know what to lobby for, don’t know what the government has/hasn’t pledged, don’t know what the global targets are and how we are doing. Most either deny it/deny that a good portion of it is even happening - and are still willing to argue and bicker and claim ‘conspiracy’.
It really is a tragic slide into hellish outcomes for life on Earth over the next century and at this point we’re still asking for it.
Yes our so-called leaders have let us down. But we’ve let ourselves and each other down. Not to mention the rest of the planet. As ever - the cultures whom have contributed the least CO2, deforestation and pollution are already feeling it the most (and soonest).
The complete adoption/total acceptance of consumer-culture means (to borrow/paraphrase) that we knew the price (and minutae) of everything and yet have ‘unlearned’ the true value (and origin) of anything.
I would strongly urge reading the IPCC Sixth Assessment Report (particularly from Working Group II)
snippet:
9 The following overarching conclusions have been derived from the whole of the assessment of Working Group II:
i) The magnitude of observed impacts and projected climate risks indicate the scale of decision making, funding and investment needed over the next decade if climate resilient development is to be achieved.
ii) Since AR5, climate risks are appearing faster and will get more severe sooner (high confidence). Impacts cascade through natural and human systems, often compounding with the impacts from other human activities. Feasible, integrated mitigation and adaptation solutions can be tailored to specific locations and monitored for their effectiveness, while avoiding conflict with sustainable development objectives, and managing risks and trade-offs (high confidence).
iii) Available evidence on projected climate risks indicates that opportunities for adaptation to many climate risks will likely become constrained and have reduced effectiveness should 1.5°C global warming be exceeded and that, for many locations on Earth, capacity for adaptation is already significantly limited. The maintenance and recovery of natural and human systems will require the achievement of mitigation targets.
And although ‘every little helps’, it really isn’t a matter of just buying a more efficient car and eating one less steak a week and everything will be dandy. Nothing could be further from the truth.
CO2 and GHG Emissions by sector
A few forecasts:
The United States air conditioning system market is currently valued at US$ 20.3 billion and is estimated to top a market valuation of US$ 35.2 billion by the end of 2032
In the UK, CO2 emissions rose by almost a third between mid-May and mid-July - driven mostly by the energy sector. Sainsbury’s, the second biggest British supermarket group, has seen the sale of fans spike by 1,876 per cent in the last week.
Sales of air conditioning units have also gone up, rising by 1,420 per cent during the same period as people in the UK struggle to cope with record temperatures.
Also:
The most common pressures causing deforestation and severe forest degradation are agriculture, unsustainable forest management, mining, infrastructure projects and increased fire incidence and intensity.
With the current rate of deforestation, the world's rainforests will be gone by 2100.
In the UK, CO2 emissions rose by almost a third between mid-May and mid-July – driven mostly by the energy sector. Sainsbury’s, the second biggest British supermarket group, has seen the sale of fans spike by 1,876 per cent in the last week.
Sales of air conditioning units have also gone up, rising by 1,420 per cent during the same period as people in the UK struggle to cope with record temperatures.
Oh man, we are screwed. 🙁
They don’t know what to limit/change/know what to lobby for, don’t know what the government has/hasn’t pledged, don’t know what the global targets are and how we are doing. Most either deny it/deny that a good portion of it is even happening – and are still willing to argue and bicker and claim ‘conspiracy’.
There's an element of this that's lead by hopelessness - the problem is SO big and SO dramatic that a single person's actions (or inactions) are irrelevant so people don't know where to start or what to do. Conversely, this isn't helped by companies greenwashing eg "our detergent bottles are made from 80% recycled plastic" / "our deliveries are carbon neutral".
Oh great, you think as another Amazon van rolls up outside and you bung on another 40° wash.
There's another (related) element that feeds off that of "well the problem is SO big that anything I do doesn't matter anyway" and then they book another cheap flight to Spain...
It’s all about education.
We can but hope that the young generation at school, are learning about this climate crisis and pass on knowledge to their elders, many of whom don’t realise that we all need to change
Yeah - about that - if my daughter (19) and her social group are anything to go buy it’s not sinking in with the young either. I think they are keeping B&Ms plastic tat buying team in full employment.
One of the first things I’d ban is shit like this - there’s just no need for them…
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…but Flash say you can send them back for recycling. I wonder what percentage actually comes back and how many end up in landfill.
It beggars belief that it’s this late in the day and yet a good majority of people that I speak to/read don’t know what causes/what are the main drivers of AGW. Neither are aware of the projected effects @1.5 deg, 2.0 deg etc.
Not to me it doesn't. Most people are, and always have been, not very bright and disinterested in how things are run. It's hard work being bothered by all this stuff, and people just want to get on with their lives. It's how it's always been. You can blame them (us) for this, but then again you can't.
The people who should be acting are the ones who are actually in charge and who know full well what's going on. But as we've seen, the dim and disinterested, if they vote at all, will vote for any old bollocks. The reason we're in this situation is that no-one really knows how to get us out of it.
I seem to remember hearing that despite the councils insisting on stuff being separated for recycling, they are in fact just sending the majority of it to be burned in power stations.
I can't wait for the day where we rent everything from corporations, everything's too cheap and why should anything be free right.
Political hijacking and corporate commodification of the green movement. Isn't Elon Musk amazing. I've got Paramount+ and Disney.
Imagine if all we had avaialble was one range of cars.
the rich have got away with thinking they can do whatever they like in this world
It's sort of disappointing that the solutions people come up with to stop a world crisis seems to be "We need to recreate Soviet Russia of about 1971" Which ironically, paid for itself by being the worlds largest exporter of oil.
It’s sort of disappointing that the solutions people come up with to stop a world crisis seems to be “We need to recreate Soviet Russia of about 1971”
That’s largely a strawman argument isn’t it ? In fact I don’t think I’ve seen that suggested anywhere else except by that one person in this forum. We can’t ‘stop’ this now we can only mitigate.
Sadly, social media is awash with people claiming that all suggestions (and action) for climate-change mitigation is simply eliteoverlordglobalmarxistcommunisms (TM) at work
On a similar note - I believe that the Citroen Ami is now available in the UK. Unlike Soviet-era communism - other short-journey transport options remain available. Including legs, feet, bicycles and Chelsea Tractors.
On a similar note – I believe that the Citroen Ami is now available in the UK.
I was seriously interested in getting one, put the deposit down etc. But unfortunately the current UK legislation means it's impractical for us as a family.
That’s largely a strawman argument isn’t it ?
No, it's just a joke (not a very good one though, clearly)
One of the first things I’d ban is shit like this – there’s just no need for them…
…but Flash say you can send them back for recycling. I wonder what percentage actually comes back and how many end up in landfill.
How bad is that stuff really though? I mean just on this forum the other day, (not meaning to single anyone out particularly, this is a common mindset here), someone impulse bought some expensive suspension forks and was now looking to buy the rest of a bike to put them on.
Surely the environmental impact of a 50g plastic duster is basically zero compared to buying a whole bike's worth of steel and carbon and plastic and rubber that you don't really need, but just kind of fancied because life's short and **** it, you can afford it so why not?
Again, this isn't a value judgement on that poster or his/her actions, if I was that flush then maybe I'd be doing it too. More a comment on consumerism (perhaps middle-class consumerism) generally.
There's a difference between a disposable item and a reusable item that will last decades like a bike, but as many have said on this forum in previous threads cycling as a hobby, and specifically MTB, is just not an environmentally friendly sport.
Personally I absolutely can't stand things like this which are marketed as an environmentally friendly product but just shouldn't exist.
One of the first things I’d ban is shit like this – there’s just no need for them…
…but Flash say you can send them back for recycling. I wonder what percentage actually comes back and how many end up in landfill.
Does seem daft that new stuff is being invented when on the whole we're also doing our best to eliminate other single use plastics.
That said, my OH's just as bad, but I will begrudgingly accept that sometimes the "bathroom cleaning wipes" do do a better job of cleaning the sink/taps than traipseing round the house in search of the bathroom cleaner and a j-cloth in the bathroom you're not 100% wasn't also used to clean the toilet rim.
cycling as a hobby, and specifically MTB, is just not an environmentally friendly sport.
I disagree with that. You can drive all over to trail centres and buy a new bike every year, but you don't have to. You can ride an old steel bike locally, and that's pretty low impact.
I will begrudgingly accept that sometimes the “bathroom cleaning wipes” do do a better job of cleaning the sink/taps than traipseing round the house in search of the bathroom cleaner and a j-cloth in the bathroom you’re not 100% wasn’t also used to clean the toilet rim.
That problem is entirely yours to solve though. Have a stack of cotton cloths, have a cleaning cupboard with the cleaning stuff in so you know where it is, and put the dirty cloths in the laundry.
Personally I absolutely can’t stand things like this which are marketed as an environmentally friendly product but just shouldnt exist.
Most companies are greenwashing now. Quite successfully as well, proclaiming the environmental friendliness of their product because it is / can be recycled or they plant a tree for every sale or the production of it is carbon neutral...
Figures never actually explained or clarified...
No, it’s just a joke (not a very good one though, clearly)
@nickc, yikes! Poe’s Law got me, I’m sorry. We definitely need a <satire> button on the forum/s
That problem is entirely yours to solve though. Have a stack of cotton cloths, have a cleaning cupboard with the cleaning stuff in so you know where it is, and put the dirty cloths in the laundry.
You drive an AMG Merc, I'm not sure any amount of cotton cloths is going to offset that 🤣
I’m sorry.
no worries, no need to apologise. 👍
I took part in the 'Big plastic count', earlier this year.
The results were astounding. Only 12% of all our plastic gets recycled. The rest is burnt, buried (in landfill) or shipped off to far away lands, where it gets burnt.
It's easier than ever to go back to the ways of our grandparents when it comes to cleaning. Cotton cloths will last a long,long time, use natural sponge instead of those dreadful foam pads, many shops now do refills, using lemon juice, vinegar or just good old elbow grease. Let items dry naturally. Don't use a drier (outside is free). Cycle where possible. Wear lots of layers instead of having the heating on at 20d. Plant a tree (even a tiny one in a pot)
Make your own dish washer tablets. Only wash clothes when they are actually dirty (not after one wear). Only put on a full dishwasher. Don't buy plastic tat from China.
Do not under any circumstances buy helium 'celebration' balloons.
Make your own compost, grow a few things to eat, such as lettuce (a child can do this in a tray). Use tap water, you don't need to buy big plastic bottles, have a milk man. Don't cut your grass, have a pond, plant a hedge.
These are all suggestions that really will make a teeny weeny difference.
Re-use, repair and re-cycle.
It's easier than ever to do these things.
