[Closed] It may have hit the fan in Ukraine - passenger jet shot down

Plane definitely down, very sad as all aboard are lost, bit too early to confirm it's been shot down but Russian's seem to be suggesting so

Oh no. 🙁

ignore me, I can't read headlines apparently

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28345039

And then

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28354856

Looks like the same incident but possibly initially thought to be a fighter jet not a passenger plane...

[url= http://news.sky.com/story/1302864/malaysian-plane-shot-down-with-295-on-board ]Correct URL[/url]

I saw the other bbc one earlier but poster above must be right !

Whether it was shot down or an aviation accident very sad news either way for the loss of the pasengers.

Will have been a tragic year for Malaysian Airlines too what with the loss of their other aircraft.

Looks like the same incident but possibly initially thought to be a fighter jet not a passenger plane...

I must say I saw the first headline and just assumed military, very odd if that's not the case, surely if Ukraine were accusing them of shooting down a plane they would know if it was military or civilian?

Russian sources saying it was Ukranian missile.

As per link above it was an Amsterdam to KL flight

Rebels in eastern Ukraine say they shot down two Su-25 jets on Wednesday.

Quote from BBC report.

One Su-25, One airliner?

EDIT: Wondering how commercial traffic could be anywhere near airspace in which rebels are known to be regularly taking potshots using ground to air weaponry?

Sadly, there's maybe been the assumption that the rebels have not much in the way of military training, and no access to higher tech, high altitude missiles, so high-level flights may still have been operating.

According to the Telegraph, someone downed a Ukranian transport from 21,000ft three days ago, something which had escaped my attention.

Tensions have been high in the last few days with the Ukranians suspecting Russians of shooting down their planes (EDIT: @martin yes that's the same incident). Rebels typically don't have higher altitude surface to air missiles, only government forces.

@FF Separate incidents. The Su25 was alegedly shot down this morning, the Malaysian jet only left AMS after midday.

The UK Foreign Office said it was aware of the reports of the crash and was "urgently working to establish what has happened".

You can watch the track on planefinder disappear around 13.10 😮

I wonder what's going to happen in Gaza during the next 24 hours now the world's collective eye has been drawn elsewhere.

Some may see it as a good day to behave in ways they don't want to be noticed too much?

Sad news 🙁

Are Malaysian Airlines jinxed then at the moment?

Sky quoting a Ukranian source that it was a Buk missile, these are launched off the back of a armoured vehicle.

A flight from Holland is going to have been full of holiday makers, very sad.

Anton Herashchenko, an adviser to Ukraine's interior minister, was quoted by the Associated Press as saying the plane had been hit by a missile at an altitude of 10,000m (33,000ft). The claim could not be verified independently.

I have to ask though, why would an airliner fly over a warzone? Or even a potential warzone?

..some bloke on BBC World was wondering about this, basically said the plane shouldnt have been there.

Dammit! Not another M'sia airline ...

I will fly pass Ukraine airspace in mid August to KL then to fly M'sia airline for further connecting flight.

Damn! Very bad publicity for M'sia airline because the other local airline is not one I will fly that often ...

RIP passengers.

😐

Edit: if they shoot me down I will come back as one of the 3 horsemen of apocalypse ... with black death. 😈

I just found myself thinking for a minute what it would be like to be aboard a passenger airliner struck by a missile in mid air, and not die instantly..

Awful awful awful.
What is going on?

What is going on?

on BBC now as well. Bloody hell..... fubar

If the aircraft was shot down by Russia, the consequences will be incredibly far reaching.

I think it might be the end of Malaysia Airlines now after losing two aircraft within a matter of months.

RIP the poor folk onboard 🙁

If the aircraft was shot down by Russia, the consequences will be incredibly far reaching.

Or they'll just hang the poor bastard who pushed the button out to dry and carry on regardless. 🙁

At the moment both sides are blaming the other but you would assume that the eyes of the world are very much on that region due to the ongoing conflict – surely there must be a spy satellite somewhere that has tracked events?

The US will have access to satellite imagery that should be able to identify ultra-violet plumes if a long-range surface-to-air missile was fired.

From the BBC.

But that is after the fact (that technology is claiming to be searching for traces of plumes left in the atmosphere after firing), surely they were watching anyway?

wwaswas - Member
Malaysian passenger jet reportedly shot down.

[tinfoilhat]
No one making the obvious link with the previous Malaysian plane?
[/tinfoilhat]

Can a plane really be shot down by a surface missle at 30k+ feet?

Honest question

[tinfoilhat]
No one making the obvious link with the previous Malaysian plane?
[/tinfoilhat]

Can a plane really be shot down by a surface missle at 30k+ feet?

Honest question

Apparently so, from a BUK mounted vehicle

6 miles isn't it so I guess in the grand scheme of things, its not too far for a missile to travel.

What they thought a plane at 30k ft was a risk to them for though, I've no idea. Its not going to be dropping bombs from that height...

Can a plane really be shot down by a surface missle at 30k+ feet?

Honest question

Ro5ey

Yup pretty easily too. It's only 6ish miles and a StA missle is very capable of doing so especially a slow, steady target like an airliner.

Target engagement zone

aircraft

altitude – 15 m – 25 km
range – 3–42 km

TBM

altitude – 2.0–16 km
range – 3–20 km

sea targets – up to 25 km
land targets – up to 15 km.

Grim news.

Point made on BBC that the rebels have no air capability, so why would the Ukrainians be using StA missiles...

so why would the Ukrainians be using StA missiles...

[Tinfoilhat] They're pissed off at the Russians for knocking down their planes, and this is a good way of stopping them? [/Tinfoilhat]

slimjim78
I just found myself thinking for a minute what it would be like to be aboard a passenger airliner struck by a missile in mid air, and not die instantly..

Assuming you survived the explosion and subsequent high speed disintegration of the airframe, at FL300, the partial pressure of the atmosphere is only around 22kPa. Assuming you were fit, healthy, and not agitated (!) you'd have around 30sec of consciousness before you passed out.

In reality, there is a very high probability you'd be knocked unconscious very quickly by the G forces caused by the ejection from the remains of the airframe.

Whilst old tech IR "heat seeking" Ground To Air missiles would struggle to hit a passenger jet (because they use cool high bypass ratio turbofans, not "hot" turbo jets), the more modern radar guided missiles would have no problem, especially as in "Military" terms the ~550KTS cruising speed of the airliner is pretty slow.

However, it should also have been completely obvious from the size of the radar return that the target was not a military jet......... ;-(

Terrible 🙁

[img] [/img]

I reckon you'd be killed instantly or at least stunned by a 500mph blast of -80C air tbh.

Theory i have heard is that its pro russian rebels who have been given buk missiles by russian military. Same rebels who shot down ukranian cargo plane at 21,000ft two days ago

I recommend people steer clear of twitter to read up about this. Some pretty horrible photos popping up on there 🙁

Terribly sad, my thoughts are with the families 🙁

I hope international airlines will avoid the flight path in in trigger happy hi-tech capability war zone. 😡

Awful for those involved.

So can a bomb be ruled out?

Looks like the fuselage made it to the ground largely in one piece (by the compact impact zone), and doing a relatively low speed (both vertically (no crater) and forwards (small impact zone) so it probably not a catastrophic hit leading to a complete break up, just a "loss of control" or "lift". RIP to all involved.

FunkyDunc - Member

Awful for those involved.

So can a bomb be ruled out?

One possibility but why in Ukraine / Russia? Nothing related to M'sia at all ...

It's either Ukraine/Russia that are trigger happy by the looks of things.

Looks like at least one engine was stopped at impact from the condition of the fan, so points to systems failure from the missile strike.

The fact the SR71 Blackbird existed means that SAMs can shoot down aircraft at 30k feet, and have been able to do so since the '50's. That isn't very far for a missile unfortunately. Its not unusual for passenger planes to overfly war zones though. I've been flying over Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran over the past 6 years. also routine scheduled services have been maintained in and out of these countries. Makes me wonder what religious fundamentalists are sitting up and taking notice of this? Must be easier to get their hands on some SAM's than a dirty bomb or trying to get a bomb on an aircraft. This is a disaster though, absolutely shocking. My heart goes out to those on board and their families.

[img] [/img]

came from this page, but I can't access now due to pay wall

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article4150129.ece

assuming it was shot down i suppose there are 2 possibilities

russian supplied rebels, thinking they were taking down another ukranian cargo plane (or fighter?)

or

ukranian government forces trying to get revenge on a russian plane for the planes theyve had shot down

coud it be proved either way?

Or Putin ordering it deliberately in response to increased US sanctions to send a message. He's nuts that guy - properly stuck in the Cold War. I find it difficult to believe they couldn't or didn't positively identify the target before firing. There are not many cargo planes that can fly at Mach 0.8 at 30k feet - certainly nothing the Russians or Ukrainians have got, and you're not going to mistake a B777 for a fighter aircraft.

The Wikipedia page for the missile system being reported suggests a maximum target altitude of 25,000ft...

25,000 Meters.

Big, big difference. The system could hit a high flying U2 spyplane.

tightywighty - Member

came from this page, but I can't access now due to pay wall

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article4150129.ece

OK, now on Reuters too

The military commander of the rebels, a Russian named Igor Strelkov, had written on his social media page shortly before the report of the airliner being downed that his forces had brought down an Antonov An-26 in the same area. It is a turboprop transport plane of a type used by Ukraine's forces.

Some bloke on the ground sees an aircraft up in the sky, he know he doesn't have any on his side so lets loose with the missile he was trained to use last week.

Would he have known, or cared, what the silhouette of a transporter or a 747 look like ?
Can you pick out a turbo prop or a jet at that height ?

so yes, it really has just hit the fan

Putin ordering it deliberately in response to increased US sanctions to send a message. He's nuts that guy - properly stuck in the Cold War. I find it difficult to believe they couldn't or didn't positively identify the target before firing. There are not many cargo planes that can fly at Mach 0.8 at 30k feet - certainly nothing the Russians or Ukrainians have got, and you're not going to mistake a B777 for a fighter aircraft.

You'd think that wouldn't you, but anything is possible when you have a pissed up vodka swilling ex Russian or Ukrainian conscript operating the system based on what he's read in the stolen SOP's.

Would he have known, or cared, what the silhouette of a transporter or a 747 look like ?
Can you pick out a turbo prop or a jet at that height ?

To a trained eye.... the flight path, constant altitude at 33000 feet and airspeed would indicate that it's not a Ukrainian plane. Military turboprop cargo planes don't fly at 33000 feet at a constant heading and altitude inside a warzone....unless they want to get shot down, let alone fly at Mach 0.8.

To a trained eye

anything is possible when you have a pissed up vodka swilling ex Russian or Ukrainian conscript

Just seen about this; what a crap end to a nice afternoon.

Let's keep comments here respectful 😥

ukranian government forces trying to get revenge on a russian plane for the planes theyve had shot down

The Ukrainians are fighting a group without any planes, so they don't need to shoot anything down. The plane shot down was flying from West -> East.

A russian military plane would not be that deep into a neighbouring country, having appeared over the the wrong boarder.

Hopefully the Ukrainians have some anti-radiation missiles to go hunting with, that's the only justice that I can see the Malaysians getting.

Moronic and awful situation all round. With that said, I'm not going to speculate any further out of respect for the dead.

Ahhh crap I can't help speculating.

http://ru.flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS17/history/20140714/1000Z/EHAM/WMKK Original flightpath

http://ru.flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS17 Todays flightpath

Supposedly only Kiev could have had the flight path altered *[b]conspiracy mode on[/b]* A 10er says that Ukrainian intelligence knew there was a Buk missile launcher operating in the area (based on radio emissions) and diverted a flight over it.

Supposedly only Kiev could have had the flight path altered *conspiracy mode on* 10er says that Ukrainian intelligence knew there was a Buk missile launcher operating in the area and diverted a flight over it.

Half past 7 and on the booze already?

Niet. I'm just jaded/cynical.

Just leave it, eh?

The rebels tweeted that they had one of those BUKs a couple of weeks ago
[img] [/img]

tweet now removed apparrently

EDIT beaten above

Russian-backed rebels groups or Russian forces based in eastern Ukraine have allegedly been shooting at planes and helicopters with Buk missiles over the last week in an attempt to achieve mastery of air space.

Shoulder-held Manpad missiles are popular with guerrilla groups worldwide but the Malaysian Airlines plane would have been flying above 10,000 metres, well beyond their range. The Buk, which the Ukrainian interior minister, Anton Gerashenko, blamed for the attack, has a range of 22,000 metres.

Igor Sutyagin, a Russian military specialist at the London-based Royal United Services Institute, said that he believed that either Russians or Russian supported groups in eastern Ukraine were responsible. He said they had been shooting at Ukrainian aircraft over the last week.

Sutyagin, who monitors social media in the Ukraine, said a Ukrainian rebel force had been spotted just hours earlier with a Buk at Torez, a village close to the site where the plane came down.

Jonathan Eyal, director of the Royal United Services Institute, said it was not a matter of climbing aboard a van and pressing a button. Firing a missile required knowledge of how to use radar, how to lock onto a target and a host of other steps beyond the average Kalashnikov carrying rebel.

"If the plane was shot down, it could only have been shot down by a state authority … The only country that has a persistent policy of trying to prevent Ukrainians controlling air space is Russia. Russia has taken an interest in shooting down aircraft and forcing Ukraine to use ground troops."

From the Guardian. Does anyone know if airlines were warned about the missile system, seeing as the Ukrainians obviously knew about it?

Again, from the Guardian.

A site attributed to a separatist leader suggests rebels may have shot down MH17, but it has since been taken down and details remain unclear.

It features a comment saying "We just downed an An-26 near Torez. It's down somewhere near Progress mine," which suggests rebel forces may have believed the passenger jet to be a Ukrainian military transport plane.

The page, on the VKontakte social network, is attributed to Igor Girkin, who goes by the nom de guerre Strelkov and is the self-proclaimed military commander of the rebels. The page has been posting for rebels affiliated with Strelkov for weeks, and has some 130,000 followers.

[img] [/img]

A screengrab from a VKontakte page attributed to Igor Girkin, known as Strelkov among east Ukrainian rebels. Photograph: /VKontakte
The post continues "We had warned them not to fly in 'our sky'" and says "here is video confirmation of the "downed little bird." The linked video is the same as that used in media reports on the crash.

The post also says "a residential sector was not caught" and "Innocent people were not harmed."

Rebels have previously shot down an An-26 jet on 14 June, killing 49 Ukrainian military servicemen.

Russia Today is claiming Putin might have been the target:

http://rt.com/news/173672-malaysia-plane-crash-putin/

Apparently this was taken in Donetsk today.

[img] ?d5e8cc8eccfb6039332f41f6249e92b06c91b4db65f5e99818bdd7934b46dddedc53&ec_rate=230[/img]

Quite amazed by just how connected the world is today.

I feel dirty for just clicking on that Rt.com link.

[s]putins personal propoaganda channel[/s] Russia Today must be desperately wondering how to spin this, I suspect most russians will believe its a plot by the west/ukranians anyway, theyll be ready to scoff at the American sattelite imagery showing it being launched from a rebel checkpoint

Well a army wouldnt think rebels have jets so its a fair guess that its RUSSIANS. I imagine a Russian officer will be in big trouble for this.

Russia needs to feel some heat now.

Meanwhile in the middle east..

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28359582 ]Israel starts ground offensive in Gaza[/url]

Whilst the eyes of the world look the other way.... 🙁

Rt are now showing pictures of all the dead people,some very sad people out there who go out and record these pictures, its somebodies family , husband wife kids, partner.

and other media are going on about the exact numbers of american and english and dutch people who where on the plane, sadly nothing about the malaysians who have died.

Totally pathetic coverage so far.

I wont click on the RT link. That could someone we know.

other media are going on about the exact numbers of american and english and dutch people who where on the plane, sadly nothing about the malaysians who have died.

A nasty modern day news habit. I recall a plane crash (may have been air france going to Brasil, maybe not) when Fiona Philips said 'thankfully none of the victims were British'.

Terribly off thing to say IMO.

People tend to worry if they think their loved ones might have been on a plane that crashed, for that reason people feel reassured if they are told that no Brits (or whatever nationality the news supplier is) were aboard. It's a natural reaction and very understandable imo.

Whoever was responsible for a missile attack I have no doubt that they didn't deliberately target a civilian airliner. I can't understand what it was doing flying over a war zone in which several planes had been shot down in the previous week. It's reasonable to assume that whoever shot it down believed it to be either a Ukraine or Russian military plane. I would have thought.

Meanwhile in the middle east..

Israel starts ground offensive in Gaza

Whilst the eyes of the world look the other way....

Sadly it's not a new tactic for the Israelis.