RudeBoy - MemberIsrael's government and military are indefensible. Any decent, open-minded person can see that. Only those with their own issues against the 'enemies' of Israel would disagree.
I don't have any "issues" against the enemies of Israel. I don't agree with you though. I guess that makes me neither decent nor open minded? Although with that style of argument, I rather think you fall foul of the second description yourself.
...the game will not end until both sides get leaders that realise that peace is more profitable than war...Since when has peace been profitable?
Israel is a major arms manufacturing country (10% of all worldwide weapon sales) and has at hand a very useful proving ground for weapons it could potentially export.
druid; you disagree with the fact that Israel's actions are indefensible? As I've pointed out several times, so are those of Hamas. In fact, any organisation that actively seeks to kill and harm innocent people is surely indefensible. Would you not agree with that?
peace not profitable?
only if you win, UK economy crippled after WW2, Germany and Japan rebuilt?
I doubt if even now we have recovered the cost of the Falklands Campaign and Iraq and Afganistan are good for the budget too... lol
Israeli arms sales 10% world wide figures? source? I get <1%
Israel relies on US technology, the Atlantic will be hot with US transports restocking them as we speak
I personally have no axe to grind, I just see the waste of human life, the exploitation of ordinary people by their leadership and local politics distorted by outside influences. When both sides stop killing each other things will improve. The current action is likely to fail just as the ones before have
Peace not profitable?
Maybe, but war is an extremely lucrative market.
And Israel seems to do quite well, out of it:
[url] http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/932656.html ][/url]
[url] http://www.ishitech.co.il/0303ar5.htm ][/url]
[url] http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2007/12/mil-071211-rianovosti01.htm [/url]
big_n_daft - [url= http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/932656.html ]Clicky[/url].
Israel is also one of the largest exporters to the US of small arms ammunition as well as being a huge exporter of weapon components and upgrades for aircraft.
Of course a large amount of 'their' technology is actually someone else's as Israeli weapons manufacturers are experts at reverse-engineering. Indeed this is one of the primary reasons that weapons exports from the US and other Western countries to Israel haven't been a free flowing as they once were. Not that many in the west are that worried about the Israelis doing this for their own benefit but rather that they are more worried about Western technology falling into the hands of less desirable elements around the world due to Israel's apparent lack of restraint over who they sell to. They are even known to sell to the Iranians (although moderate ones apparently, read up on the Iran-Contra affair), a country that doesn't even recognise the right of Israel to exist!
Does it really matter?
Foreigners murder each other all the time. Something to do with the heat.
If you're going to consider history, there's far more than 2000 years to consider. Why not go back to Joshua leading an invasion of the "promised land"? After all, that was only about another 2000 years ago.
Personally I think history has little to do with the current misbehaviour on both sides. What really pisses me off is that we are still selling weapons to Israel despite the fact that our national leader has disapproved of their actions in the strongest manner possible.
I've written to my MP about this, has anyone else, or are we all just moaning on here. It's easier than you think on [url= http://www.faxyourmp.com ]faxyourmp.com[/url].
Oh, goodie, we're going to consider history...
Let's see -
Romans invade England, build wall to keep the barbarians in the south, misplace a few legions to the north of it, decide they don't like the weather, and go home voluntarily - score 1 for the Romans
nasty Saxons invade England - ok, you lot and your descendants go home
nasty Danes invade England - ok, you lot and your descendants go home
nasty Normans invade England - ok, you lot and your descendants go home
Nice kind Scots king and his hangers on take over England (1603) - ok, you lot and your descendants go home
nasty Dutch king and his hangers on take over England (1688) - ok, you lot and your descendants go home
then of course there were the Germans, but they're still the bosses, so we won't say anything to upset them 😆
Now England will be so empty it'll make a great mountain bike park.
O bugger, my lot are descended from the vikings who took over the west coast of Scotland, so we'll have to go home too - but that shouldn't be too hard to take, those Scandanavian blondes look pretty hot, and I like IKEA, ABBA and Volvos.
I think people misunderstand (very good, though, epicyclo!).
The events of hundreds, thousands of years ago have little bearing on events today, granted. But they are part of the culture of people, to the extent that they still have an influence over daily life.
Like, our Calendar, many of our laws, numerical systems, etc...
You simply can't ignore history.
The Israelis certainly aren't.
Nazi party won two elections in 1932
The Nazis failed to win a majority in both elections in 1932. The best result they achieved was 230 seats well short of a majority in the 608 member Reichstag. Hamas on the other hand, has won control of 7 out of 10 councils in the Gaza Strip.
But you still haven't explained what point you're trying to make by comparing the elections which brought Hamas to power, with the elections which happened in 1932 in Germany - are you trying to say that democratic election results should now be ignored if you don't like the result ?
"What happened 2000 years ago should be totally ignored"Bugger. Wish you'd told the Christians that a few weeks ago; would have saved the expense of all that fuss on December 25th...
Yes, the territorial integrity which existed 2000 years ago should be totally ignored today.
Christians aren't making territorial claims because of what happened 2000 years ago. Dumbass
Oh dear.
My point was, which I thought I'd made clear by putting 'democratically elected' in quotes, was that maybe not all 'democratic' elections are quite as fair and democratic as they are claimed to be. I have no problem with democracy, just with corruption and lies. And not all people 'democratically elected' are necessarily the 'right' people for the job.
And the Nazis gained control over Germany. IE, they 'won'.
And Saddam got 100% of the vote.
Are you getting it, now??
There are of course, many other examples of democratically elected leaders being relatively fair and just, for balance.
You're picking a needless argument with me. I don't know why.
"Christians aren't making territorial claims because of what happened 2000 years ago"
That's because they're too busy fighting amongst themselves: [url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7718587.stm ]When Monks go bad[/url]
As for ignoring history, well tell that, to the Zionists...
Are you getting it, now??
Ah I see, I think I am now. You appear to be suggesting that Hamas didn't win in 'free and fair' elections. Well why didn't say that in the first place ?
Have you actually got something to back up your ludicrous claim - or is it just a typical knee-jerk reaction from a Daily Mail reader ?
You're picking a needless argument with me. I don't know why.
Sorry, was I suppose to just agree with you as you denounced the elected representatives of the Palestinian people ?
How about instead of reading the Daily Mail you read this :
[url= http://www.stopwar.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=863&Itemid=27 ]Since Hamas won the Palestinian elections in 2006, Israel has punished its 1.5 million people[/url]
Quote :
[b]Like any occupied people, the Palestinians have the right to resist, whether they choose to exercise it or not. But there is no right of defence for an illegal occupation - there is an obligation to withdraw comprehensively. During the last seven years, 14 Israelis have been killed by mostly homemade rockets fired from the Gaza Strip, while more than 5,000 Palestinians were killed by Israel with some of the most advanced US-supplied armaments in the world. And while no rockets are fired from the West Bank, 45 Palestinians have died there at Israel's hands this year alone. The issue is of course not just the vast disparity in weapons and power, but that one side is the occupier, the other the occupied.[/b]
more disjointed observations:
A quick perusal of the stats above re Israeli defence exports seem to be being misplayed
The $4 billion quoted is for "security" products which will cover a wide range of products. It also includes $1.1 billion for an air defence radar system for the Indian government
Its a shame Iran doesn't publicise its stats for exports of arms and technology to Hamas, Sunni insurgents, the Taliban etc
selling bullets to the US probably lowers the carbon footprint as they will be going to Iraq and Afghanistan anyway
The key issue really is why everytime a ceasefire starts to get established and relations start to normalise does someone decide to restart the killing machine?
I don't know the answer and I seriously doubt the people posting here know either
Within the Gaza strip there is arguably no occupation the issue is the control of borders. The Israeli's arguably being unreasonable with their restrictions and the palestinian extremists plotting to keep it that way to further their political objectives of isolating Isreal in preparation for the self publised ogjective of removing them from the map.
http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html
hardly Ghandi is it?
I personally don't think the Israeli's are playing it right and the current offensive is unlikely to succeed unless they are able to provoke Hamas enough to bring them out into the open. Hamas aren't daft and probably have enough people outside the conflict zone to repopulate any losses in the leadership.
The Israeli problem is how much pain are you prepared to absorb to gain the moral high ground, at the moment they obviously think the price would be too high (and based on some views expressed on here it would require the decimation of the civilian population to redress the "blood" balance).
so we are back to the pain and suffering of ordinary people on both sides to feed images to the 24 hour news channels and world opinion
Some observations. I don't profess to understand the situation and my 'civilised' survival instinct will never fully understand why anyone would willingly give their life for the glory of their cause.
Conflict has been going on for over 2000 years in the Middle East; I can't see it being resolved in the near future.
My understanding is that Hamas 'assumed' control after an undecided election.
I can't help but recall to mind the end of the film Lawrence of Arabia.
I do wonder who are right: colonial empires that put lines on pieces of paper to say who can go where, or, nomadic peoples who don't understand why a line on a piece of paper should restrict where they can go.
Random thoughts I know and probably not entirely relevant but they're thoughts that come to my mind when trying to understand some of these conflicts.
big_n_daft Quote :
"[i]Its a shame Iran doesn't publicise its stats for exports of arms and technology to Hamas, Sunni insurgents, the Taliban etc[/i]"
That statement is absurd.
For decades the Iranians waited for the collapse of the hated Sunni Ba'athist regime (a regime with which they had a full scale war) and the establishment of a Shia government in Baghdad. Now that Tehran has at last a friendly Shia government governing Iraq, you say that they are helping the Sunni insurgents to overthrow it ! ! !
Likewise the Iranians have always despised the Taliban. The Sunni Taliban slaughtered many pro-Iranian Shia Afghans, and the Iranian government strongly supported the Northern Alliance which eventually overthrew the Taliban, even supplying them with high ranking officers to oversee their operations. And now you say the Iranians are helping the Taliban ! ! !
Where do you get your information from - Fox News and the Sun ?
Of course it's much easier to lump all the "bad guys" together isn't it ? And misinformation about the facts can be very useful. Today most Americans believe that Saddam Hussein had links with al-Qaeda which was very handy for Bush and Blair. Even though anyone with a smidget more knowledge than average misinformed American knows that to be utterly ridiculous.
