[Closed] ISIS: Why we hate you.

For example, this is the mayor of one of the world's leading capital cities. He is a Muslim. Is he part of the 16th century?

He is not a muslim according to the doctrine that ISIS follow, in fact I think he is regarded as worse than an aetheist as he is subverting their version of Islam.

We need a test that clearly identifies someone with sympathy to their view - show them a couple involved in sodomy for example - if they react they execute them - won't matter to them or their relatives as they have been martyred, in fact they will be glad of it. Win-win all round.

He is a Muslim. Is he part of the 16th century?

for the purposes of your argument you are conflating "Islam" with "Muslim"

And I do hope you realise the irony of claiming Islam is in the 16th century, whilst sat at a computer which owes at least part of it's ability to operate, to algebra.

No irony and lets move forward a bit from the 16th Century. Staying with Harris who states:

"Consider: According to the United Nations’ Arab Human Development Reports, less than 2% of Arabs have access to the Internet. Arabs represent 5% of the world’s population and yet produce only 1% of the world’s books, most of them religious. In fact, Spain translates more books into Spanish each year than the entire Arab world has translated into Arabic since the ninth century"

The Muslim guy that was attending our table in the overwater restaurant in the Maldives had this justification for believing in his God - "the sun comes up in the morning and it goes down at night, who else but Allah could cause that"

The piece certainly wasn't a surprise to me, it was absolutely consistent with my view.

ISIS are not motivated by Western intervention in the Middle East. They are motivated to impose their version of Islam on everyone including other Muslims, Christians, Jews and Atheiests. As the piece says whilst they opposed to Jews they do not care for the plight of the Palestinians as they are not true Muslims in their view. They do wish to incite Jihad against the West as it's their religious duty to do so and to die in the course of Jihad guanatees paradise.

The Muslim guy that was attending our table in the overwater restaurant in the Maldives had this justification for believing in his God - "the sun comes up in the morning and it goes down at night, who else but Allah could cause that"

TurnerGuy - Member

The Muslim guy that was attending our table in the overwater restaurant in the Maldives had this justification for believing in his God - "the sun comes up in the morning and it goes down at night, who else but Allah could cause that"

A belief in God to explain the existence of the universe and all that exists within it is fairly widespread. In fact I would say that it was central to all religions, and over 90% of the world's population claim to have some sort of religion.

So what else did you learn during your trip to the Maldives, apart from the fact that people who are religious believe in a God who created things ?

So what else did you learn during your trip to the Maldives, apart from the fact that people with religious believe in a God who created things ?

That he had a pretty simplistic view of life which wasn't helped by a lack of any education that might cause him to question it.

The Muslim guy who cleaned our room expressed a somewhat veiled delight that Islam was taking over the western world, which somewhat shocked me in the way he expressed it. He was watching some religious nut shouting the odds in their parliament on the TV news at the time.

Did you piss yourself laughing?

he was also complaining about being tired from having to get up so early to pray before preparing the restuarant, then serve breakfast, then pray again, then serve lunch, then pray again, etc - 5 times a day.

I did ask him how he kew he had chosen the right god and how he would feel if it turned out that it was the wrong god and he had wasted all that time.

I also pointed out that the two young guys on the table next to us were on their honeymoon, which shocked him.

That he had a pretty simplistic view of life which wasn't helped by a lack of any education that might cause him to question it.

And yet you must be aware that some highly educated people are Muslims. They share exactly the same religious beliefs, including stuff about the sun/universe, as those who lack any education.

****stan still has a large number of disenfranchised, poor and uneducated people. I think those are ideal conditions to promote radical religion and violent struggle, so Stanhope's satirical analysis is probably closest to the mark.

Most of the world is poor, the only ones that have an issue with religious terrorism are the Islamic ones. People don't blow themselves and other civilians up, or gun down school children because they are poor. To suggest that they do is quite frankly offensive to anyone from a third world country that hasn't seen that kind of violence. Again this is like the 6th time I've posted this on here......

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2015/s4327230.htm

nothing....to.... do.... with.... being.... poor.

"for the purposes of your argument you are conflating "Islam" with "Muslim""

😆

Well, seeing as how a Muslim is someone who follows/practices Islam, then yes. Why, do you have an alternative interpretation of this?

Sam Harris is interesting, but seems to appeal very much to those who seek validation of their own bigotry. He concentrates on carefully selecting pieces of information that support his own views, and conveniently ignores other stuff which may contradict them. His critique, whilst at times reasonable and valid, is also flawed, narrow-minded and simplistic in it's view. But he's entitled to his opinion, as is anyone else. He talks from the position of an outsider, without having a broad empirical experience of Islam, it's followers and cultural practices.

Research has shown that the vast majority of the world's 1.6 billion Muslims don't support ISIS. Sensationalist gutter press headlines such as '1 in 5 UK Muslims support ISIS' are just Islamophobic bile. Yes, 'Islam' has to face issues within itself, amongst a very small minority of it's own followers (as does pretty much every major religion), but to suggest somehow that Islam is 'backwards', in the '16th century' or other such rhetoric, is just blinkered nonsense.

Turner guy that sounds like some sort of Fawlty Towers reimagining. Did you really go on holiday to bait Muslims? Very strange conversation to be having with a stranger in a foreign land, not least when they busy serving you (the rich westerner).

Did you really go on holiday to bait Muslims?

As a good STW Uber Atheist he has to show his dedication to his Faith. 🙂

Very strange conversation to be having with a stranger in a foreign land, not least when they busy serving you (the rich westerner).

he was the one complaining about how tired he was from all that praying, so I was just having some banter with him.

Perhaps I was treating him as just a person who happened to be serving my meals.

He concentrates on carefully selecting pieces of information that support his own views

there wasn't really any information in that ISIS brochure that supoprted any other view.

And yet you must be aware that some highly educated people are Muslims. They share exactly the same religious beliefs, including stuff about the sun/universe, as those who lack any education.

Mass hysteria...

"there wasn't really any information in that ISIS brochure that supoprted any other view."

He's offering a critique of Islam, by using ISIS propaganda. A bit like doing a critique of UK politics by only reading a Britain First leaflet.

He's offering a critique of Islam, by using ISIS propaganda. A bit like doing a critique of UK politics by only reading a Britain First leaflet.

If Britain first had it's own army and controled it's own state then sure, it would be a bit like that. But it doesn't, so it's nothing like that. It's more like offering a critique of one of the interpretations of Islam. A pretty popular one which attracts like minded people from all over the world.

Why, do you have an alternative interpretation of this?

I'll try to help. Islam is a belief system. Muslims tend to be people.

without having a broad empirical experience of Islam, it's followers and cultural practices.

I suspect he is something of an expert. I dont think you are.

He concentrates on carefully selecting pieces of information that support his own views, and conveniently ignores other stuff which may contradict them

You mean like your comment about Algebra? Or your introduction of Sadiq Khan to infer that if he is Muslim he must see the world in the same way as a Isis Jihadist. You mean that type of stuff?

Research has shown that the vast majority of the world's 1.6 billion Muslims don't support ISIS

Harris cites his, can you do the same?

He's offering a critique of Islam, by using ISIS propaganda

Have you read any other work by Harris or listened to any other podcasts?

TurnerGuy - Member

"And yet you must be aware that some highly educated people are Muslims. They share exactly the same religious beliefs, including stuff about the sun/universe, as those who lack any education".

Mass hysteria...

Well since it is clear that you like baiting Muslim waiters who allegedly lack education whilst you are on foreign trips would you show that same sort of attitude towards, say, a Muslim consultant who was examining you during a hospital appointment......would you engage in idle chitchat about their religion?

Or do reserve your sanctimonious and contemptuous attitude for the less educated ?

I notice he was very dismissive of the view that Dabiq is propaganda, but I don't understand why. It IS propaganda and seems to be working on him at any rate.

vickypea
I notice he was very dismissive of the view that Dabiq is propaganda, but I don't understand why. It IS propaganda and seems to be working on him at any rate.

Harris has spoken at length about western perspectives on Islamism, ie that it's delusion, that it's the product of poverty/environment or the lack of education or modernity or just that radicalised individuals are mentally disturbed etc etc.

He's not dismissing that Dabiq is propaganda, he's simply stating that because it's propaganda doesn't negate it's message.

During WW2 the allies created propaganda to collect metal or to save food to aid the war effort. Positive propaganda is designed to show your side in a good light. ISIS have released this manifesto to show themselves in a good light, to attract people to their cause.

Whilst it reads like the most insane black propaganda designed to besmirch and speak ill of ISIS it is in fact expressing what they believe.

Is this the same Sam Harris who suggested that torture might be ethical in the "war on terror"

why yes, [url= http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/in-defense-of-torture_b_8993.html ]yes it is...[/url]

He's offering a critique of Islam, by using ISIS propaganda. A bit like doing a critique of UK politics by only reading a Britain First leaflet.

he's doing a critique of jihadists I think you'll find, it's right there in the title of the blog.

I'll try to help. Islam is a belief system. Muslims tend to be people.

Muslims are people that partake in that belief system...

nickc

Is this the same Sam Harris who suggested that torture might be ethical in the "war on terror"

why yes, yes it is...

By citing the ticking bomb scenario. Yes. He's stated on numerous occaisions that he's against torture except in the most specific and dire circumstance that would mean it was wholly unethical to not torture someone you knew to be guilty to save innocent lives.

Another example where Harris is discussing broad philosophical concepts which get deliberately obscured by his detractors to "Sam Harris is pro torture" or Sam Harris hates muslims".

OK, I'm going to take with a pinch of salt the views of some-one who decides moral issues by watching repeats of 24, or the "By citing the ticking bomb scenario" defence.

nickc
OK, I'm going to take with a pinch of salt the views of some-one who decides moral issues by watching repeats of 24, or the "By citing the ticking bomb scenario" defence.

So nick, you are on holidays in Australia. It's 40 degrees. Your car is stolen from a petrol station, your infant child is still in the car.

A well known criminal is seen on cctv and by witnesses stealing the car. He's 6'4, Samoan, and has a blonde afro.

An hour later police arrest the 6'4 Samoan, but he denies stealing the car. Your child will die if he doesn't tell police the location of the car soon.

Should they beat him up to extract this information in order to save your child's life?

Well since it is clear that you like baiting Muslim waiters

As I said I asked him a question - bit of stretch between that and baiting.

Or do reserve your sanctimonious and contemptuous attitude for the less educated ?

no, I just reserve it for socialists and Corbyn supporters...

Should they beat him up to extract this information in order to save your child's life?

I close my eyes and by the power of fairy-dust turn the Samoan into a unicorn and superman rescues my child....

Should they beat him up to extract this information in order to save your child's life?

if there is a positive id on the cctv, as witnesses cannot be relied on, then the case is a lot stronger.

nickc - Member

I close my eyes and by the power of fairy-dust turn the Samoan into a unicorn and superman rescues my child....

I was looking for a yes or no answer but this is Harris' example of the type of scenario where it would be unethical not to torture.

but this is Harris' example of the type of scenario where it would be unethical not to torture.

indeed, it doesn't make it any less revenge-porn fantasist nonsense just because it's couched in semi-academic mumbo-jumbo though. It's still the plot-line of a half arsed Steven Seagull B movie.

nickc

indeed, it doesn't make it any less revenge-porn fantasist nonsense just because it's couched in semi-academic mumbo-jumbo though. It's still the plot-line of a half arsed Steven Seagull B movie.

Except that it actually happened, and it's referenced by the Stanford encyclopedia of philosophy as an example of the ticking bomb torture scenario.

It's still the plot-line of a half arsed Steven Seagull B movie.

the use of the letter B was redundant here...

(unless it wasn't a misspelling and there is a half-decent actor named Steven Seagull...) [img] [/img]

What if the Russians were attacking and you had to torture Corbyn to get the nuclear codes?

I would - either way would be a win - torture and he gives up the nuclear codes and you can make sure the ruskies aren't going to benefit from their aggression, or you don't get the codes but at least you make that loser Corbyn suffer for stating that he wouldn't use the nukes and therefore inviting the ruskies to try it on.

and the Stanford example goes on to say that torture, if legalised could not be contained, and if un-contained would be horrific anyway, and the damage to institutions of justice, and the people that work within them and the societies that rely on them, would be incalculable.

nickc

and the Stanford example goes on to say that torture, if legalised could not be contained, and if un-contained would be horrific anyway, and the damage to institutions of justice, and the people that work within them and the societies that rely on them, would be incalculable.

Yep, that's what Sam Harris has said. That torture is untenable for normal situations but with the caveat that all options have to remain open hypothetically for worst case scenarios.

Your evasion of a yes or no answer is a tacit agreement that he's right, even if you set out to undermine him by saying he's pro torture. It would be hilarious if it wasn't just sad since Sam Harris constantly has people try to discredit him by quoting him out of context.

Your evasion of a yes or no answer is a tacit agreement that he's righ

It's nothing if the sort, but it is a reminder not to get involved in thfesds like this.

It's nothing if the sort, but it is a reminder not to get involved in thfesds like this.

nickc

It's nothing if the sort, but it is a reminder not to get involved in thfesds like this.

Yeah well if your idea of getting involved is to post obscurantist ad hominem nonsense then it's probably best you don't.

The Samoan example rather assumes that torture is effective in getting the truth, or even useful information. Plenty of evidence that it isn't.

What if our Samoan is mentally disturbed or delusional hence torture is a sub optimal way to get the truth?

To go back to the bottom of page 2, Dabiq is propaganda; therefore how can you be sure it is what ISIS really believe? How do you know they haven't just written all that stuff to try and get the "West" to turn against all Muslims, and thus help them to create chaos and destruction all over the world? Maybe it is accurate but if you didn't write it yourself, you can't be sure, nor can you be sure why they wrote it.

Why does the bloke have to be a Samoan?