[Closed] ISIS

I'll be the first to condemn them then!

I will also add that we shouldn't sell them any weapons, or bits of weapons.

I'm reasonably confident anyone not living under a rock is aware of this.

However, it is relatively unclear what can be done about them. In particular:

- the UK government supports the government of Iraq, but it isn't as well-armed or effective as it used to be (for reasons that are lost in the mists of time)

- the UK government will probably not be providing additional weaponry or logistics to the forces of the Autonomous Region of Kurdistan, whose forces are apparently being pushed back by them - not least because doing so will aggravate (NATO ally) Turkey

- the UK government has painted itself into a bit of a corner in its destructive relationship with Iran, the main regional power likely to put serious force into the field to push ISIS back into their box

- the UK government is relatively unlikely to put KSA, Qatar etc under any serious sanctions to deter them from further funding and arming of the ISIS lot

- the UK government has already decided against military action against the Syrian government - it is not likely to decide to send forces to assist the Syrian government in dealing with ISIS.

- ditto Lebanon.

Apart from ruefully watching the collapse of the (bloody and highly unsatisfactory) Sykes-Picot lines, it's very unclear what the Western role in this conflict can reasonably be. 🙁

we shouldn't sell them any weapons, or bits of weapons.

i agree
they have seen an opportunity to raise their ugly head because of the situation in both countries where 2 brutal dictatorships where funded and created by the western governments...
one has been disposed of and his country has now been left in ruins by the western governments and their armies...leaving it as a lawless state
the other one hasnt been disposed of, although some very weak effort was made by the west but all this has done is angered him and in return he is brutalising his own people while the west idly watches on
both these countries have become a breeding ground for a new type of extreme fundamentalist who has seen the opportunity arise for them to take advantage of the destabilised governments and rise as the monster that is ISIS

I wonder whether Hamas would side with ISIS ? I cannot imagine too may Palestinians would want to live according to the restrictive code enforced by ISIS but I suspect they will sacrifice themselves to anyone who will give them weapons.

Does anyone know if the Palestinians which originally fought against the Syrian government fought with or against ISIS ?

ISIS will take control of Iraq pretty much totally, many many 1,000's more will die as a result. Many more will be displaced. The question is what next, is it Saudi Arabia or Jordon although either will bring a swift intervention form the US I suspect.

The prospect of radicalised westerners returning from Syria and Iraq having fought for ISIS is very real and a huge security concern for the West.

they have seen an opportunity to raise their ugly head because of the situation in both countries where 2 brutal dictatorships where funded and created by the western governments...

I'm reasonably confident anyone not living under a rock is aware of this.

The Islamic State (ISIS have rebranded themselves) are eminently deserving of condemnation. As, sadly, are many of the sides in the Syrian civil war.

What, in your opinion, should be done to stop them? Traditionally the sort of things that western states have done in these situations have involved either direct military intervention or assisting other groups that oppose them, which often involves overlooking any dubious behaviour that those groups engage in. Neither of those options seems to work out well in the short, medium or long term.

It's not necessarily that I don't think that anything should be done, rather I have no idea what the western world can really do, particularly in terms of short term actions to stop the suffering that's going on right now.

What about the support of dictators, instigating of revolutions and supplying weapons and money Jambalaya?

The West has had a massive part to play in the area, using the very divides you mention to try and play sides against each other. It's not restricted to the Middle East either, a good example is the seeds of the Rawandan genocide sewn by the Belgian colonists.

Here we go again, it's all the West's fault.

oh so when the west trained and funded Assad and Saddam for the benefits of its own political/economic gains/agenda...it was ok
but in doing so they created monsters that they then let off the leash and failed to subseqeuntly control
so why should those that created these two monsters take no responsibility in death and suffering that they both have inflicted on their people?
the west created these monsters. it watched and did nothing as these monsters killed thousands over the years.
when the west did finally spring into action it made a total balls up of things and as a result both countries are a mess thus allowing an even more brutal regime in the form of ISIS to come into power

I feel duty bound to state that ISIS has the right to defend itself, and the citizens of its caliphate, by whatever means at its disposal

this thread is to discuss and to condemn their brutal actions as war crimes

despite how often the OP is made to eat his/her own words, you may have managed to pick a safe subject.

was this one not going the way you wanted? I emailled the link to my isis buddies.
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/isis-islamic-state-of-iraq-and-syria

EDIT - its ok binners will play with you.

I feel duty bound to state that ISIS has the right to defend itself, and the citizens of its caliphate, by whatever means at its disposal

you mean like the Israeli government?! is it allowed to steal land as well?!

soobalias - Member
despite how often the OP is made to eat his/her own words, you may have managed to pick a safe subject.

was this one not going the way you wanted? I emailled the link to my isis buddies.

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/isis-islamic-state-of-iraq-and-syria

Eh?

@binners, interesting the form that the ISIS defense has taken don't you think. Especially in regard of the amount of casualties and its expansion over 1000's of kilometers. Also what where ISIS defending exactly ?

@Lifer indeed the West have got involved in Middle Eastern politics but I would argue strongly that these conflicts would have existed anyway. The Sectarian divisions are too strong. These groups of people would have been trying to kill each other and establish control without our intervention. Even in a country like Bahrain which is relatively prosperous and stable we had demonstrations which lead to civilian deaths.

@binners, interesting the form that the ISIS defense has taken don't you think. Especially in regard of the amount of casualties and its expansion over 1000's of kilometers. Also what where ISIS defending exactly ?

@Lifer indeed the West have got involved in Middle Eastern politics but I would argue strongly that these conflicts would have existed anyway. The Sectarian divisions are too strong. These groups of people would have been trying to kill each other and establish control without our intervention. Even in a country like Bahrain which is relatively prosperous and stable we had demonstrations which lead to civilian deaths.

[img] [/img]

When someone decides to kill their neighbours they are twunts. Whether they have had training or equipment or money that allows them to achieve this more effectively, they are still twunts, and it is their desire to kill or terrorise that marks them as such, not how good they are at it.

I own both an axe and a lump hammer. If I go on a rampage, no-one should call for Screwfix to be shut down.

Can we draw comparisons between the much lauded poets and writers who left these shores to fight the fascists in Spain and young men from Bradford who go to Syria?

as I read it Hamas are against ISIS and fighting them as Hamas support and are supported by Assad of Syria.

It is hard to know what to do other than the obvious cutting off funding and weapon supply both of which given their looting are unlikely to have a short term impact.

we don't trust our allies on the ground to provide targeting for air strikes as unlike some armies in the region we have a desire to minimise civilian losses.

We cannot afford boots on the ground.

What we can do is encourage support and accommodate those who wish to flee the area controlled by Isis then await the Caliphates inevitable collapse .

Can we draw comparisons between the much lauded poets and writers who left these shores to fight the fascists in Spain and young men from Bradford who go to Syria?

Was someone listening to The Long View last week by any chance?

despite how often the OP is made to eat his/her own words, you may have managed to pick a safe subject.

i'm sorry but who has made me eat my own words?
you're trying to paint a picture that i've been owned by others in what ive said on other threads...
the link you posted to the other thread...i never even made a single comment on that...if i had known it was there i would have but i didnt

Lemon, no, what is it?

@crankboy - no Hamas declared against Asad which is why the Syrian government killed 2000+ Palastinians in attacks (some of the photos released by Hamas and purporting to come from Gaza where actually of dead/injured children in Syria). It is my understanding ISIS fought against the other rebel factions including the Palastinians as well as against the government but I am not sure.

ISIS don't need any supply from the West as they have captured lots of kit and raided the banks of Iraq so they have many $100's of millions. Russia supports and arms Asad and we support the Iraqi government but it's finished IMO.

@binners, no whoosh at all pretty obvious where you where coming from. I was inviting a response.

Lemon, no, what is it?

Radio 4 discussion/history program which did an interesting half hour on that exact topic with a pair of academics last week. Second link down here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/longview

Let me get this right... I'm being posed a question, by a Zionist, about the number of casualties being inflicted on a captive civilian population, by a heavily armed occupying force, on their land, that they've invaded and are now occupying? And pointing out how terrible that is.....

[img] [/img]

ISIS - fundamentalist Sunni, backed by Sunni Saudi and Qatar
HAMAS - fairly fundamentalist Shia, backed by Shia Iran

Not much common ground there.

@binners, lets stop the name calling shall we ? No you where saying ISIS is defending itself, against what ? I know what your position is on Israel/Gaza and you know mine.

Hamas fired 450 rockets at Israel from Jan to June 2014, every single one of them intended to kill civilians as they are not accurate enough to hit military targets so they shoot at towns and cities. Hamas wanted to provoke a reaction which they knew would be severe as they wish to fight a propaganda war. It is they who are responsible for their own populations death.

By the way a Hamas rocket hit the Palestinian town of Bethlehem just before the cease fire, fortunately no one was killed.

@gonzy, you are quite up to speed on the region. Did Hamas/Palestinains fight with or against ISIS ? Are Palastinians Shia or Sunni or something else ?

EDIT

ISIS - fundamentalist Sunni, backed by Sunni Saudi and Qatar
HAMAS - fairly fundamentalist Shia, backed by Shia Iran

Not much common ground there.

By the way a Hamas rocket hit the Palestinian town of Bethlehem just before the cease fire, fortunately no one was killed.

Yes... thank **** for that eh? The last thing you'd want is some dead Palestinians on your hands eh? Phew!

Were there any reports of dead wise men or messiahs?

[img] ?m=1358219636[/img]

ISIS - fundamentalist Sunni, backed by Sunni Saudi and Qatar
HAMAS - fairly fundamentalist Shia, backed by Shia Iran

actually you'll find that you're wrong there. Hamas is a Sunni Muslim organisation. Palestine is a Sunni Muslim state.
while ISIS may be funded by those Saudi tosspots, as they are as you've rightly pointed out a Sunni muslin group, Hamas does not agree with their doctrine.
i'm pretty sure that Hamas are not funded by Iran, but i wouldn't be surprised as they seem to have one thing in common which is that they both do not like Israel for their own particular reasons.
Hezbollah, however is a Shia Muslim organisation that is allied to and funded by Iran, but their operations are mainly based in Lebanon but they are now starting to spread out into Syria...i think that's who you were on about

@gonzy, you are quite up to speed on the region. Did Hamas/Palestinains fight with or against ISIS ? Are Palastinians Shia or Sunni or something else ?

@ Jambalaya
read my previous post please. i was typing it up when you posted your question to me, but hopefully it answers your question

jambalaya - Member
Hamas fired 450 rockets at Israel from Jan to June 2014,

Source?

I can find reports of 181 rockets fired from Gaza in that time period.

Palestinian Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for 60 of those.

Yes... thank **** for that eh? The last thing you'd want is some dead Palestinians on your hands eh? Phew!

^^ and the whataboutery continues... 😯

Gonzy - point conceded

In my mind its akin to suicide bombing.

@lifer I posed a chart up some time ago in one of the other threads as @gonzy said no rockets had been fired since 2012 but it was 41 in 2013 and 450 in 2014 prior to the conflict. You can have a search if you care, I found it online. Also the IDF posts up each time the air raid sirens go off and they have been going off almost constantly during 2014 that is what lead to the conflict. That is why the action has so much support in Israel, the average Israeli is fed up with air raid sirens and having to go to their bomb shelters day in day out. They have a special radio channel which is silent apart from the air raid siren, people sleep with this on full volume so that if their is a siren they are woken and can go to the shelter. This is also why Western governments like the UK and the US support Israel as they are aware of the amount of rocket fire and intimidation the Israelis have been subject to it's just not reported in the UK press.

@gonzy, thanks saw your post. Iran sells weapons to Hamas, not sure if that amounts to financial support.

I think ISIS is a far bigger thread to the Middle East than the West and/or Israel. This is not going to end well.

The chart from the 'IDF Blog' which has no sources or breakdown attributed?

😕

@binners well that's exactly what Hamas want as it feeds their propaganda machine. That's why it advises (and I suspect intimidates) families to stay in their homes as that's the best way to protect against air strikes. Hamas knows who its members are and knows their homes are targets but it keeps telling people to stay put. In my mind its akin to suicide bombing.

now why would anyone believe the lies of the Israeli government? they have consistently lied about major point during this conflict. they lied about Hamas being responsible for the murders of the 3 boys that started this whole thing off. they lied about not knowing the UN schools they bombed were full of women and children. they lied about the deaths of the 4 boys on the beach when they said that they thought they were terrorists. they lied about Hamas capturing one of their soldiers which brought about the end of the ceasefire on Friday...they knew he was dead already.
the Israelis have lied over and over again in order to justify what they are doing.
many independent media outlets have confirmed on the ground that there has been no evidence of Hamas using its own people as human shields...Jeremy Bowen of the BBC was one of the most prominent to confirm this and as it did not sit well with the BBC's pro-Israeli propaganda...they pulled him out of the region.

At the end of the day, the whole of the middle east is populated entirely by absolute lunatics! Even the ones who maintain they're the sane ones are completely psychotic genocidal loons! And... really... whats there anyway? Apart from the oil, obviously? A lot of sand? Some mosques? Olive trees? Humous?

Its rapidly approaching the point that the whole lot of them are becoming such a complete pain in the arse, that the west should revue its attitude to the whole region, and adopt a more realistic approach. For everyones benefit. So... this (which would be my personal preference)....

[img] [/img]

Or just declare open season, allow unrestricted arms sales of everything unto and including (short range) nuclear, to all sides, and just leave them all too it. Let the mad bastards all kill each other. Which is what they're all absolutely itching to do anyway. At least then we could make a few quid out of the nut-jobs, as they wipe each other off the face of the earth

Give it 20 years, then stroll back in to the glass, nutter-free zone, and start pumping the oil again

I tell you... if I were running the planet, we'd all be better off...

@gonzy - it's not whatabouterry, its about consistency with regard to closely related topics, its about probing the rationale for people's viewpoints.

I think ISIS is a far bigger thread to the Middle East than the West and/or Israel. This is not going to end well.

no Jambalaya, i think ISIS is a big threat to Israel too. if ISIS is allowed to carry on expanding into Iraq and take full control of Syria then it will turn its attention on another Sunni Muslim state...and that will be Palestine. Hamas and the Palestinian Authority recognise this and will resist this if it should happen. the main ideology behind ISIS is to rid the region of Shia Muslims and to create an entirely Sunni Muslim caliphate.
Iraq and Syria are in disarray and that's why they have targeted those two countries as a starting point. they will soon go for Palestine..especially given what is going on there at the moment...it will make the region ripe for the picking.
i'm not saying that they will go in with guns blazing...they will use the attack by Israel on Hamas as a tool to destabilise the local population and to undermine Hamas's grip/influence on the area. they will appeal to the Palestinians by painting themselves as the next hope, and out of sheer desperation, i wouldnt be surprised if they dont start to build up support for them.
at the same time they will make headway into Iran as Iran is a Shia state. if Iran falls to ISIS then they will have Iran's potential nuclear firepower at their disposal...and thats when the threat of ISIS will become very real to Israel....by which time it will be too little too late for the west to intervene.
if this is allowed to happen...then i'm afraid to say i wholeheartedly agree with you in that it will not end well. i'll even go as far as saying that it could be the beginning of the end for everyone.

And... really... whats there anyway? Apart from the oil, obviously? A lot of sand? Some mosques? Olive trees? Humous?

dont forget the dates, figs and shwarma!!

I tell you... if I were running the planet, we'd all be better off...

no we wouldn't...you'd make us all shop at Greggs!! 😆

@gonzy the UN school full of people was hit by a Hamas rocket. The more recent school event the IDF killed three Hamas on a motorcycle which did result in some deaths of people in the immediate area including at the school. The UN has discovered weapon stores in 3 UN schools. Hamas claimed to have captured the soldier and then retracted it knowing it would backfire, either way they killed two soldiers via a suicide bomber emerging from a tunnel after the ceasefire.

You've said yourself many times the BBC was biased, so that basis I am not surprised you think most of what Israel says is lies. How you can post that the BBC is pro-Israeli I'll never understand. Anything that doesn't suit your point of view is a lie.

Hamas builds it's attack tunnels and stores weapons in and under residential properties (and mosques) and then tells the residents to stay put. That's a human shield in my book.

ISIS is a far bigger threat to Palestinians than Israel.

But Gonzy... no two countries with a Greggs have ever gone to war with each other. Food for thought indeed 😉

i think ISIS is a big threat to Israel too.

But Gonzy... no two countries with a Greggs have ever gone to war with each other. Food for thought indeed

true..but unless one country has better pasties than the other, or one sells veg pasties and the other doesnt...then they'll be lobbing stale pasties at each other...and those badboys can do some serious damage!!

jambalaya - Member
the UN school full of people was hit by a Hamas rocket.

Source?

jambalaya - Member
The more recent school event the IDF killed three Hamas on a motorcycle which did result in some deaths of people in the immediate area including at the school

Source?

jambalaya - Member
Hamas claimed to have captured the soldier and then retracted it knowing it would backfire,

Source?

This be the ISIS thread not the Gaza thread.

You've said yourself many times the BBC was biased, so that basis I am not surprised you think most of what Israel says is lies. How you can post that the BBC is pro-Israeli I'll never understand. Anything that doesn't suit your point of view is a lie.

i accuse the BBC of bias because that is what it is doing...every report i have been made aware of has had commentary from individuals who are aligned to Israel...there has no commentary made from the Palestinian point of view.

a few weeks ago nearly 100,000 demonstrators descended on London to demonstrate of the conflict and speak out against Israel...the BBC failed to report on this...not even a snippet.
when thousands of demonstrators marched on Media City in Manchester to demonstrate against the BBC...again this was not reported by them

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/amena-saleem/bbc-trying-shore-support-israels-assault-gaza#.U-ENOwdmpU0.facebook

This be the ISIS thread not the Gaza thread.

true, this is what i meant by the whataboutery.
it is leading us off topic...even i've been caught up in it.
this thread is for ISIS
talk about Palestine/Israel on the other thread please.

I'd like his sources on this thread please, as the statements were made here.

Ask the people in these countries Iraq , Syria , Lybia etc if things are better now or were they better before. It might have been bad but nothing can compare to this. Ime pretty sure if they could turn back the clock they would.

What on earth are you going on about. Its all going great!!!

[img] [/img]

@lifer - I don't recall exactly you can look up the chart I posted. Clearly the IDF and their systems track the missile launches. The IDF publish on twitter etc and the siren alarms are logged. Various blogs and forums discuss the amount of missile launches and siren warnings.

Guardian reports 300,000 Iraqi's have fled the ISIS Jihadists and 40,000 risk death or dying from thirst as they are stranded on a mountain top.

So where do people stand on this ?

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/06/40000-iraqis-stranded-mountain-isis-death-threat ]ISIS in Iraq[/url]

That's a bit unfair binners, the Middle East Peace Envoy is too busy throwing expensive parties to have time to place himself in a war zone.

He's also too scared.

Have you not seen his latest wheeze Ernie?

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/02/tony-blair-gas-pipeline-italy ]Just when you think you can't hate the money-grubbing charlatan more, he pulls something else out of the bag[/url]

Jambalaya - we're all agreed. Its a shite state of affairs. Yet another tragic chapter in the present sorry Middle East saga.

But I've asked you this before, and you've never seen fit to answer me: what on earth are the we in the west supposed to do about it? We've hardly covered ourselves in glory with our interfering, have we? Its all been an unmitigated disaster!

Syria is a war zone between a bunch of hardline Islamic nut-jobs (who are rich and tooled up to the teeth), and an equally psychotic dictator (also rich and tooled up to the teeth, and backed by Russia). It was our stupidity that created the chaos in Iraq in the first place, by toppling that particular psychotic dictator, which went really really well. The whole region is ablaze with proxy wars being played out by rival factions, funded by the Saudi's or Iran, or the Americans, or whoever's getting their oar in this week. Libya is the latest to dissolve into factional anarchy

So... what exactly do you suggest we do? That won't just make everything even worse?

And what do you see as the least worst outcome? Because none of the outcomes look particularly palatable.

Well, except the preference I've already expressed, which is surely the only solution we'll inevitably reach.....

[img] [/img]

So the Middle East Peace Envoy isn't just busy partying, he's also busy making staggering amounts of even more money from dodgy deals ?

Well I guess the Middle East can wait and be left on the back burner until the Middle East Peace Envoy gets a bit of spare time to deal with it.

Sorry Jambalaya - not my place to back up your claims. That chart is worthless.

@lifer - IMO the chart is genuine, I posted its sometime ago having looked it up. Clearly the IDF and their systems track the missile launches. The IDF publish on twitter etc and the siren alarms are logged. Various blogs and forums discuss the amount of missile launches and siren warnings. The UK government spoke about the amount of missile attacks the Israelis had been subject to before July. @gonzy and others reference the kidnap as being the reason for the conflict but the Israelis have consistently said its about the tunnels and the missiles.

@gonzy, well the BBC reports I see are 80% footage from Gaza and 20% commentary from Israel. The only Hamas commentary I see is from their leader who is in Qatar. I would strongly suspect no one form Hamas in Gaza will show their face on TV nor indeed even meet journalists as they will give away their whereabouts and/or confirm their identity to the IDF.

As an aside to your lies lies lies post the Israeli strategy in the event of kidnap is to ensure the kidnappers cannot get to a safe place even if that means endangering the captive. I think there is a possibility he was killed along with his captors by Israeli fire even if he was taken alive which is questionable as they where attacked by a suicide bomber wearing an explosive belt.

It's a genuine chart, for sure. Axis and everything.

The figures used to create it, however...

I've not seen one report to suggest Hamas took responsibility for the alleged kidnapping.

Ask the people in these countries Iraq , Syria , Lybia etc if things are better now or were they better before. It might have been bad but nothing can compare to this. Ime pretty sure if they could turn back the clock they would.

I've worked with 3 Iraqi scientists and 1 Kurd, all of whom were in Iraq when it kicked off in 2003.

None of whom blame the Americans for the country devolving into chaos, they blame the Saudis and think that the American invasion was their only chance of ever having a normal functioning democracy. Hundreds of thousands of people were murdered under Saddams rule and that's not including casualties from the Iran-Iraq war. To say that what is happening now is worse than the combined effects of that war and Saddams genocidal campaign of murder and torture is a half-truth at the very least. When you count all of Saddams wars with his neighbors and his massacres the death toll is well over 1 million+.

People forget that.

@lifer - all that info I posted is from the IDF including videos I've watched from aircraft including material and in a number of cases backed up by journalists. As far as I am aware no journalists have witnessed casualties on any of these sites as they are forbidden from travelling to them. I would imagine if you had been following the conflict carefully you would have known this. You seem to have a deny everything approach here.

I have total confidence that the IDF is releasing correct data for missile launches, iron dome responses etc.

Someone quoted a statistic about 90% of Israelis living in the cities, I imagine that's because that is where they are safe and protected by iron dome. Iron dome tracks likely landing areas for missiles and shoots down the ones which will hit a city/town, so it's safer to live in one.

no two countries with a Greggs have ever gone to war with each other

@Tim, interesting. I worked with an Iraqi (he was the sole compnay representative in the country) who said life under Sadam was terrible but the country was under a degree of control however unpleasant and after he was deposed the situation was far worse and he sadly correctly predicted the infighting which would follow and gravely feared the day the Americans would leave.

Jambalaya, I guess it depends on who you speak to. Academics were repressed so they dislike Saddam more than others I guess.

The deaths caused by Saddam far far outweigh that of Isis, people forget how ferocious the Iran-Iraq war was. It included WW1 levels of destruction and trench warfare.

jambalaya FFS!!! You go on and on and on with your constant whataboutery on every Israel thread, about ISIS and Syria. So this is a thread about Syria and ISIS

So I'll ask you yet again, but it really is getting repetitive, and boring now .... what on earth do you suggest anyone does about it?

I'm genuinely interested, as you seem so exorcised about the subject, what do you propose? Any answers?

But do Greggs do kosher and halal?

er...no...cue the start of another conflict in the "democratic" state of Binners!!

These are the 'moderate' rebels which the Obongo administration wanted to (and did) arm.

Primarily Wahhabist / Salafist Arabs and brainwashed young lads (and a few girls) from Europe, bankrolled by wealthy Emirates businessmen and preachers (ISIS even have their own glossy brochures) with the full backing of Amerika and Isreal.

The whole Middle East thing was orchestrated from the beginning by Washington, the Federal Reserve, and the Military Industrial Complex. Perpetual world war is great for business; oil prices go up, weapons get sold etc.

What is scary about this whole thing is the current reignition of the Cold War with Russia. The mainstream media is keeping a hell of a lot of info about Ukraine under the radar, bar the usual anti-Ruskie propaganda.

A little-publicised bill is currently going through the US Senate which would pave the way for a military conflict with Russia, which the whole of Europe would be drawn in to via NATO.

Decimated Europe = good for US business.

History is full of cases of psychopathic / sociopathic leaders. The problem with our present time is that we truly believe, in our heart of hearts, that we have 'changed'.

👿

@gonzy and others reference the kidnap as being the reason for the conflict but the Israelis have consistently said its about the tunnels and the missiles.

If you are going to so blatantly rewrite history Jambalaya then at least have the decency to wait more than just one month to do it.

[url= http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.602235 ]Netanyahu on murders of three Israeli teens: Hamas is responsible and Hamas will pay[/url]

In the entire article in the Israeli newspaper there is plenty of mention of retribution but not a single mention of rockets or tunnels.

Quote :

[i]Peres says Israel's retribution will be harsh; other members of Israeli government call for tough responses

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Monday evening that "Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay."

Alongside this heavy sorrow, we are determined to punish the wicked terrorists with a strong hand.

Right-wing members of the Israeli government called for the destruction of Hamas following the discovery of the bodies of the three kidnapped teenagers on Monday.

"This tragic ending must also be the end of Hamas! The nation is strong and ready to absorb [attacks] for the sake of striking a mortal blow against Hamas," said Deputy Defense Minister Danny Danon (Likud).

"[W]e have to destroy the homes of Hamas activists, wipe out their arsenals everywhere, and stop the flow of money that directly or indirectly keeps terror alive," Danon added.

The government of Israel must declare a war to the death on Hamas, which is responsible for the murders, and return to the policy of assassination."[/i]

There will be none of that democracy nonsense when I'm running the planet (not long now). I'll be making Ghengis Khan look like Nick Clegg

There will be plentiful delicious, if slightly greasy, pastry products though. So everyone's happy 😀

These are the 'moderate' rebels which the [b]Obongo [/b]administration wanted to (and did) arm.

hmmm

@binners I do not have an answer to ISIS, not one which doesn't involve a military commitment on a huge scale which is not going to happen. I personally think Iraq is being abandoned, the scale of death and destruction will be a multiple of that seen in Syria (170,000). I just want to see what all those who are so vocal and focused on Israel and Gaza have to say about this situation which is many many times more grave for the region's population.

As I posted IMO the West will stand firm on Israel and Saudi as/when the ISIS threat comes but they are "kicking the can down the road" until that time. In the meantime 100,000's of people are going to die in sectarian violence.

@Tom yes you are right on the Iran / Iraq war in terms of casualties but that was primarily a military conflict I believe (7 years long I think) so whether you say Saddam was responsible for those deaths I don't know. I think ISIS has killed less people than the Syrian government but is far more dangerous given their pan-region objectives and the number of casualties for which they are responsible may well surpass those in Syria and it could happen fairly soon.

@binners there is no "better" system than a benevolent dictatorship. Certainly cuts out all the government bureaucracy.

I'll go along with Totalitarianism in exchange for pastries. Providing there is good quality whipped cream.