[Closed] Is This a Tory Class War?

Well it was Bob Crow I think? 'nuff said.

What the wealthiest in the land cocking up, then mounting the poorest and trying to shag a solution out of them? ....don't know how you could suggest such a thing, shame on you!

Very graphic image, thanks BB.

Not now Dave I have a headache.

No, because the public sector has a good spread of middle and working classes in it, as does the private sector.

400,000 more kids will live in poverty because of the actions of this government - yes, it's a class war. The very upper class against the rest of us.

Well seeing as RBS and a number of other banks are publicly owned, they are all officially now 'the Public Sector'

So if the same wage restraint and pension conditions applied to the bankers, management and directors of RBS etc, then it isn't a problem. I'll believe the patently fatuous nonsense that "we're all in this together"

If not, then yes - its Class War

No, because the public sector has a good spread of middle and working classes in it, as does the private sector.

this. also

400,000 more kids will live in poverty because of the actions of this government - yes, it's a class war. The very upper class against the rest of us.

poverty is a stupid, undefined measurement. World bank defines it as living on less than $5 a day. there are no children in the UK in those circumstances. relative poverty is someone earning under 60% of median income. by that measurement, you can make a bunch of people richer, and no-one poorer, and more people will be in poverty

we're all in this [b]sh*t[/b] together

FTFY

Not strictly a class war because the tories will turn on anyone they can screw a quid out of sooner or later.
Its not even like they need to, they already have more than they need and any more is just an extra zero on the balance. Now the only way they can bolster their ego's is to make sure others are doing worse.

Sweepy - Are you basically saying that all Tories have small cocks? Well I suppose it makes sense. It explains their general attitudes to everyone else, and their need for big cars

sums it up well....

The very upper class against the rest of us.

A group of people who went to Eton running the country and the capital in a fairly difficult time, who do you think they are going to look after?

The Tory party work for the top 1% of our society and we only have Gordon Brown and the Mail/Express to thank for us not quite voting them in.

Anyone ever ask themselves why there is a problem with the people who have the best education our country can offer running the government?

poverty is a stupid, undefined measurement.

[url= http://www.poverty.org.uk/summary/social%20exclusion.shtml ]This[/url] might help you. Poverty is defined in relation to a measurement of the actual cost of living to a reasonable standard in the UK - so it factors in things like food, clothing, energy costs, transport and so on.

as to "class war" - I don't know how relevant the term is nowadays, but I have the growing perception that the 'wealthy and influential" have declared war on the rest of us. In my case 'us' is someone who would be traditionally classified as about as middle-class as it gets.

Best != Most Expensive

(that was to titusrider)

No, I think its about multinationals getting in to bed with Government and starting to dictate their own agenda.

Anyone ever ask themselves why there is a problem with the people who have the best education our country can offer running the government?

Yep and it comes back to the same answer everytime, which is because daddy could buy it as opposed to because they are the brightest and best we've got and therefore deserve it.

Best != Most Expensive

Brilliant! The Tory philosophy in a nutshell. Everything is monetarised! Know the price of everything, and the value of nothing.

If you're a *wit and you go to Eton, you're still a *wit

Does Eton come top in whatever league tables there are? Or is it a different kind of education we're talking about here?

Anyone ever ask themselves why there is a problem with the people who have the best education our country can offer running the government?

Because the option of that education is based upon connections and privilege rather than intelligence and academic ability.

Anyone ever ask themselves why there is a problem with the people who have the best education our country can offer running the government?

No problem at all, if that was the reality. Unfortunately it's not.

Anyone ever ask themselves why there is a problem with the people who have the best education our country can offer running the government?

where to start with that one??

elitist?
The Bullingdon Club?
Out of touch with society?
Really not giving a toss about the middle and certainly not the working classes, particularly Northerners?

More of the Tory front bench are old Etonians that at any time since ~ 1920.

didn't the tories introduce the 50% tax for top earners? whilst labour did no such thing? doesn't sound like a policy to protect the rich to me.

The Tory party work for the top 1% of our society

So they're voted in by that 1%?

Anyone ever ask themselves why there is a problem with the people who have the best education our country can offer running the government?

I'd say the best people tend to go into other areas such as legal and finance - easier/more money there.

Anyway, MPs are selected on a local basis so we can all choose.

Because the option of that education is based upon connections and privilege rather than intelligence and academic ability.

+1

Any notion that we live in a meritocracy is farcical.

More of the Tory front bench are old Etonians that at any time since ~ 1920.

Worse than that, they're young Etonians. So they won't even die soon.

I used to have a Taiwanese buddy. Bascially his parents rocked up there as a result of the Chinese Revolution, when Formosa as it was then was basically a desert island. He was identified as a bright kid and was fast tracked through the educational system eventually getting sent to MIT to study business. On his return he was able to borrow to finance his business at what were then ridiculously low rates like about 4% whereas if you wanted to borrow on a personal basis it was more like 20%. The last time I saw him was at the opening of his new factory complex that he'd built in Ningbo (near Shanghai). Where like many Taiwanese he returned with his wealth to his ancestoral home.

Obviously the Taiwanese were horribly deluded and got it all badly wrong.

Any notion that we live in a meritocracy is farcical.

We may not live in a complete meritocracy but it's not far off so farcical is not the right word.

didn't the tories introduce the 50% tax for top earners? whilst labour did no such thing?

Nope. That was Gordon. The Tories are regularly testing the water to see [s]if[/s] when they can get away with abolishing it

to my mind Eton and PPE at Oxford are designed to take the brightest people in the country and (as good as) educate them to enter government. (people from more diverse backgrounds can and do enter PPE at oxford but it is understanadable that to stand out from those who have a had a privaliged education is very difficult therefore only the brightest get in whatever their background = good thing )

The people ive met from high end public schools are rounded, confident, intelligent and all together a bit embarassed about being at 'eton' or where-ever. I have no problem with these people being those who enter government.

(i do have a problem with the 'doing each other favours' mentaility and the giving interships to daddies friends son etc. but that is a (current) feature of our political system, not just the tories)

If this represented my youth, I'd be embarrassed too

[img] [/img]

The thing I despise is the truly monstrous sense of entitlement they ooze from every pore. Utterly obnoxious!

The Tory party work for the top 1% of our society

So they're voted in by that 1%?

You've not really understood my point have you?

The irony is that bigoted little Daily Mail readers and those who think they are posh because they earn 50% more than the bloke down the road, and as a result vote Tory, are actually much worse off under this government.

I'll say it again, the Tory party work for the top 1% of our society. If you are not in that 1% and vote Tory, I believe you are not supporting the party that best serves your own (and IMHO the nation's) interests.

[img] [/img]
[b]2:1 in Modern History[/b] (Oxford)

[img] [/img]
John Anderson CotE 1943-1945.
[b]Maths and Geology[/b] (Edinburgh) [b]Chemistry[/b] (Leipzig) + another degree in economics.

This is my problem.

I'll say it again, the Tory party work for the top 1% of our society. If you are not in that 1% and vote Tory, I believe you are not supporting the party that best serves your own (and IMHO the nation's) interests.

Isn't it great we live in a democracy? You can say this and I can say it's rubbish and we are all happy that we've had our say.

Why does it have to be a Tory class war? The elite are the elite through centuries of manipulation - they're not the politicians, they're the folks that largely remain anonymous and quietly get on with enriching themselves by impoverishing the other 99%.

Politicians are just the sock puppets that the elite sponsor depending on who has the shiniest teeth and the best chance of fooling the rest of us. Do you really think there is any difference between the two main parties? They're doing what they're told. Meanwhile the media is used to create tension and hatred amongst us in order to distract us from what's really happening.

By turning every discussion into a red versus blue (or socialism versus capitalism) bun fight you're completely missing the point, successive governments of either ilk have brought us to where we are now. Not one of them in the last 40 odd years have had the balls to actually represent the country's best interests, instead they've stripped us of our identity and turned us into a nation of greedy, self serving idiots with a huge sense of entitlement.

Welcome to the matrix.

I'll + 1 that scuzz, i think it would deffinatly give better credibility and probabally better decisions

I do wonder if chancellor is any more than a figure head these days though? does a chancellor need to have a long term background in economics? surely like every other minister (eg defense, healthcare, environment) they just follow the most convincing advice from civil service and put a face to it?

TonyD - economics day 1, economic growth benefits everyone (see reduction in poverty between china and Africa) Those who risk capital get the greatest return but it trickles down to everyone. anyone who says capitalism is all about the 1% screwing over everone else hasnt understood it.

(sorry feeling like the only person on the 'right' side of the argument so that might be a bit forceful :p )

to my mind Eton and PPE at Oxford are designed to take the brightest people in the country

That may well be what they were [i]designed[/i] to do, but its clearly not what they [i]actually [/i]do. The educational standards required to enter are irrelevant. Entry is gained through being able to afford the fees and having the right connections. Actual ability doesn't enter into it. It is purely a financial transaction. And their present changes to the education system make it more so!

You honestly believe this delivers the most capable people into government? Sweet Jesus! Do you think we should roll this principle out into the few areas presently exempt? See where that gets us?

Another thing I object to is private schools being given charity staus, and therefore being tax exempt (how VERY tory!). It in effect means we as taxpayers are effectively subsidising the whole grotesque and archaic system

The people ive met from high end public schools are rounded, confident, intelligent and all together a bit embarassed about being at 'eton' or where-ever. I have no problem with these people being those who enter government.

From what I can see public schools give you a lot more than education in the traditional sense.

The educational standards required to enter are irrelevant. Entry is gained through being able to afford the fees and having the right connections

They have entry papers, connections is of limited relevance.

Binners i agree changes to the fees make it more likely to be as you describe but my experiane of seeing friends interview and apply for oxbridge is that it is a very rigerous acedemic and interview based process. you dont just waltze up with a cheque and say this is where daddy went. You need to have attained your AAA grades, done your work experiance and be able to think on your feet and interview well.
Where people get the idea that you just turn up with a cheque from i dont know.

(caveat: those from an better off background are statistically more likely to match the above criteria but i feel having 'socio-economic background quota's' or similar is a very dangerous road to go down)

I do wonder if chancellor is any more than a figure head these days though? does a chancellor need to have a long term background in economics? surely like every other minister (eg defense, healthcare, environment) they just [b]follow the most convincing advice from civil service[/b] and put a face to it?

It's not about the action the government chose, more the apparant lack of reasoning behind it.

titusrider - I understand basic economics but I'm not talking about those that generate wealth and therefore growth and I agree with you that this benefits all. I'm talking about the likes of the Rothschilds who have the wealth and power to (allegedly) influence governments. Perhaps this is the 0.00001% rather than the 1%.

That's as maybe. I suspect that the number one entry criteria, by some way, is still the size of Daddies bank balance.

You can be the brightest in the world. With the exception of token (and diminishing) scholarships, if you can't pay then you are not getting that level of education

What that says about us as a society is not good

a lot more than education in the traditional sense

Absolutely: For example a few years ago I was working for a public school educated fella who'd got himself into dire straits. A couple of phone calls and a day later a character walked in asked if "the boss" was about, and when I said no he handed me a cheque for £60,000 from his current account and asked me to pass it on. (He never got it back incidentally and they're still mates!)

They have entry papers, [s]connections[/s] but the ability to pay is of [s]limited[/s]greater relevance

Fixed that for you

That's as maybe. I suspect that the number one entry criteria, by some way, is still the size of Daddies bank balance.

Scholarships = Mechanism for maintaining good result averages 😉

Ah, never let a bit of fact get in the way of class war muppetry, eh.

FWIW, having actually met real Eton types in the wild, it's not really them I'd worry about. IME they get a fairly rounded education and the school really pushes the message to them that they're very lucky in the grand scheme of things rather than superior. It's the people who went to the other very expensive private schools that aspire to be Eton who tend to be noticeably less rounded and much more likely to believe that they're inherently superior because their Daddy has lots of money.

But again, don't let that stand in your way 😉

Scholarships = Mechanism for maintaining good result averages

Maybe. More likely = Mechanism for retaining charitable status...

I'm sorry but we have educational apartheid in this country, based on social class and ability to pay. Its archaic and grossly unfair. And more importantly, its a ridiculous waste of talent.

And its getting worse. We're going backwards. The chances of 'bettering yourself' are heading back to Victorian levels and our education system is a root cause of this.

Blaming the state school teachers?

clubber..."Ah, never let a bit of fact get in the way of class war muppetry, eh.

FWIW, having actually met real Eton types in the wild, it's not really them I'd worry about. IME they get a fairly rounded education and the school really pushes the message to them that they're very lucky in the grand scheme of things rather than superior."

I agree, the most superior and pompous acting twits in society tend to be those from the middle classes who jealously aspire to be something more....the number of obnoxious Solicitor types i've come across beggars belief....i'm sure they're not trained that way so why do they act that way?....spend any time with the real upper class and it becomes oddly apparent how normal they are.

binners - Member
I'm sorry but we have educational apartheid in this country, based on social class and ability to pay. Its archaic and grossly unfair. And more importantly, its a ridiculous waste of talent.

And its getting worse. We're going backwards. The chances of 'bettering yourself' are heading back to Victorian levels and our education system is a root cause of this.

Don't disagree with any of that BUT that's not the point that were making, was it? You were saying it's all the fault of Etonians because they're all horrible individuals.

The biggest factor in determining academic results (IIRC) is parents - eg expectation, values, etc.

And I should probably also clear up that clearly ability does have an effect on whether you get into Eton or not. An Etonian friend (yes, really! and he doesn't even eat babies for breakfast!) has two younger brothers. Neither of them got through the entrance exams so went to a different school.

I'm not saying they're all horrible people at all Clubber. Though lets be honest - Dave and George come across, when they let their guards down, as monumentally smug, self-satisfied and arrogant.

My point is the assumption that Eton > Oxbridge provides the brightest in the country. This patently is not the case. It provides the 'best' from an unbelievably narrow section of society. And this, I think, is detrimental to all of us. Apart from a tiny 'Elite' obviously

Dave and George are politicians. Of course they come across as smug, self-satisfied and arrogant. I can't think of one front line one recently who isn't.

My point is the assumption that Eton > Oxbridge provides the brightest in the country

Do people really assume that? Bizarre if they do. Regardless, what it also doesn't mean is that because they're from that narrow section of society that they're inherently bad/wrong/nasty/whatever other perjorative we routinely see used to describe Etonians.

I'm not so convinced by the Oxford bit FWIW - I think university is much more egalitarian though clearly the academic advantages of being well off help in getting the necessary grades.

My point really is that there's clearly an issue if Eton is overly represented because it necessarily says there's shortage of opportunity to be a successful politian if you're not from the right background but I'd be interested to see how far that extends to real world companies - not just government and a few big UK companies.

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/29/osborne-class-war-autumn-statement ]Polly Toynbee thinks it is.[/url] Blimey, she was a bit fiery there!

A more moderate opinion would say that the financial recovery measures instigated by Osborne have so far made banks even richer, and penalised those who were never going to vote Conservative or vote at all.

So that will be a cautious 'yes' from me then.

The class war never ended, but it became much more unacknowledged than before and does seem to have just shifted.

Unlike the past however it is now "the Middle" who are being squeezed like never before. I think a big part of it is that the fall of the Soviet Union removed any form of restraint on the behaviour of the elite because capitalism was seen as all powerful with the market the solution to everything. But what is forgotten is that the West did not win the Cold War with missiles and nukes, but because it offered a far better chance of improvement for "the Middle", whereas Soviet civil society stagnated as wealth and power became ever more concentrated in the oligarchy.

A situation which we now find ourselves in Britain.

Polly Toynbee makes a good point but only if you consider a two class system - the flithy rich and everyone else. Certainly not following the normal three class one that people talk about.

Good article by Polly Toynbee. And sums things up nicely:

[i]The Bullingdon budget tears the last veil of deceit, leaving the nasty party naked for all to see. [/i]

With the exception of token (and diminishing) scholarships, if you can't pay then you are not getting that level of education

I think this isn't entirely fair, my old school, which I guess is regarded as one of the major public ones, is aiming for 10% of the intake to be funded by its foundation. The foundation works with partner schools in deprived areas who put forward pupils who will be able to benefit most from a boarding experience rather than just the most academically gifted.

St Pauls, Osborne's alma mater, is planning to adopt a "needs blind" admission policy so if you are good enough you will get in even if you can't pay. I dread to think how much they will need to raise to achieve this, but that is their stated intent.

Therefore there is movement and it is not restricted to window dressing to maintain charity status.

but we don't have a tory government?, we have a coalition and labour would be just as cack at managing this.

Basically we're all screwed and it's going to hurt regardless of which bunch and self congratulatory back slapping bumwipes pretend to be in control.

the past is past, no point apportioning blame to which ever "side" you don't like it will never produce a constructive answer or solve a single problem. Pointing fingers at each other screaming "it's his fault" like kids will get us no where.

The future is bleak and it's going to get worse.

It will never get back to how it was so let's all just get on with on being waist deep in the sh1t and when the tea break is over get back to doing a handstand in it.

or you can bitch and winge ..... and it'll still happen to us all anyway 🙄

Blimey the old Eton argument again???

No point blaming Eton or Oxford. Take a look at those who destroyed state education and the ladder to progress that it used to offer. That's the correct starting place. Talk about a dash to the bottom?

And then, what should an OE or an Oxbridge Graduate do with the education that he/she has been fortunate to have? Waste it, or put it to use?

The naked OE hate-fest is just another sort of prejudice or -ism. Not only stupid, but frankly missing the point of the wider educational issues.

The future is bleak and it's going to get worse.

The point is though Tazzy that some people are not sharing the pain. And in a lot of cases they're the ones that caused the whole mess in the first place!

Executive pay is rocketing! Bankers bonuses never went away. Neither even remotely 'earned'! And tax evasion is endemic for the rich

We're all in this together? My arse!

.... I was just wondering whats happened to all the Tory supporters who used to pop up on threads such as this and chunder out things like Bliar and so forth. Seems to me that there are a lot less folk who are prepared to admit their toryness nowadays, or am I just veiwing things through my, conveniently close to red, rose tinted specs?

binners - Member
The point is though Tazzy that some people are not sharing the pain. And in a lot of cases they're the ones that caused the whole mess in the first place!

And that's a good and perfectly valid point. It's got nothing to do with Eton or Oxford though.

Old Etonians like these guys have seriously warped sense of values - and just 'cos daddy had money does not mean they are bright.

Its all about entrenched power and privilege and ensuring they retain that

The future is bleak and it's going to get worse.

Indeed it is - as a result of the tory policies.

binners, at what point did you ever think that life was fair? You can't change it, unless you want to live in a communist state, in which case feel free to leave. Other than that why waste energy complaining you're just wasting valuable time you could be learning new things and bettering yourself to be able to earn more cash and crush the Proles. Just get on with it 😀

But its not affecting everybody Tazzy, thats the whole point. The rich continue to get richer and somwhow manage to convince us we are the cause of the problem.

Edit- you have to be quick around here

A fair point! I'm going to go home and flog the house-boy to within an inch of his life!

Indeed it is - as a result of the economic crisis that's effecting Europe and much of the world

TJ - whether that is true or not, the REAL issue is how do you create an education system that allows those that you claim are excuded, to access the kind of priveleges that Cameron and Osborne enjoyed?

Otherwise we end up with a political spectrum of DC/GO at one end, Prescott at the other and a few career politicians in the middle (with the odd token candidate thrown in).

Of course, given your strong belief in evidence etc, I am sure that you have tested this idea against lots of OEs?

TandemJeremy - Member

Old Etonians like these guys have seriously warped sense of values - and just 'cos daddy had money does not mean they are bright

I bet the last bicycle helmet in Scotland that you've NEVER met an Etonian.

Yeah... but he lives next door to Polly Toynbee 😀

I can't really see the collapse of the Euro as the fault of some nobber in posh suit

Interesting how the nobbers in posh suits seem to think its the fault of the last labour government and never miss an opportunity to say so though.

and just 'cos daddy had money does not mean they are bright.

Very true - that's the role of the Eton entrance exam. Have a look at one:

ETONCOLLEGE.COM "http://www.etoncollege.com/userfiles/file/KS+Papers+2009+-+Maths+B.pdf"

Admittedly, this is a scholarship paper - but nonetheless, have a look and remember this is for 12 year olds. Then come back with, "they are not bright".

Thats right - if yo have the money you get in anyway. its not even a good rounded education FFS

Thats right - if yo have the money you get in anyway

How do you know this ?

The naked OE hate-fest is just another sort of prejudice or -ism.

Dont be ridiculous. I for one have no prejudice against those who attended school at Eton. Two of my favourite authors went there and i want an economic policy derived from the work of someone who attended school there. So i definitely dont have any sort of prejudice towards them for what school they went to - I dislike them because they are a bunch of cocks and i take that value judgement on their behaviour and actions as adults not what they did as children.