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If you wanted to dress as a 'baddie' for fancy dress what/who would you choose? Maybe give a couple of examples.
Ming the Merciless, perhaps?
Probably not Hitler or The Yorkshire Ripper... I think there is a line where being a baddie ends and being a criminal begins, just chose someone from the baddie side of that line and I guess it'll be alright.
[url= https://www.buzzfeed.com/copyranter/your-official-ku-klux-klan-robe-catalog?utm_term=.if8KJVBdnJ#.nwLeKDywOK ]how about a nice friendly clansman outfit[/url] as it's only fancy dress after all.
This is always my first thought with these stories. Whether or not it's "ok" to do so, why would you want to?
Why would you want to dress as a 'baddie' at a fancy dress party? I've no idea but many people find it amusing, especially on Halloween.
If you wanted to dress as a 'baddie' for fancy dress what/who would you choose? Maybe give a couple of examples.
Ming the Merciless, perhaps?
So there you go. You *do* understand why someone would want to dress as a Baddie.
Our old maths teacher (who, thinking about it later, bore more than a passing resemblance to Goering) always used to dress in a full officers uniform on fancy dress days. Looked good, as in accurate, but bloody terrifying.
Our old maths teacher (who, thinking about it later, bore more than a passing resemblance to Goering) always used to dress in a full officers uniform on fancy dress days.
Must have felt a bit awkward when the theme was 'Vicars and Tarts', or 'Star Wars' or 'The 70s'.
EDIT: I suppose with 'the 70s' theme he could go in a Panama hat, a tan and summer clothes.
Our old maths teacher (who, thinking about it later, bore more than a passing resemblance to Goering) always used to dress in a full officers uniform on [b]fancy dress days[/b]
Fancy dress days ?!
Did you go to Clown School ?
If you need proof of this look no further than Prince Harry
Did you miss my link to his family history and his grandmother doing a Nazi salute?
his grandmother doing a Nazi salute?
Of course as an adult she was in the Women's Auxiliary Territorial Service. Which is probably a bit more than you or I have ever done to Combat Fascism.
Of course as an adult she was in the Women's Auxiliary Territorial Service. Which is probably a bit more than you or I have ever done to Combat Fascism.
Just a shame that her brother-in-law was a Nazi sympathiser, eh?
his grandmother doing a Nazi salute?
Several years before WW2 and the final solution though.
About as bad as voting for UKIP at the time.
Several years before WW2 and the final solution though.
Yeah. In the modern world we see the Nazis through the prism of the Holocaust and the Hunger Plan. In the 30's they were the ones building motorways and giving everyone a radio and the promise of a car. They held an olympics there FFS. If Germany were considered (say) the way be consider North Korea that wouldn't have happened.
Just a shame that her brother-in-law was a Nazi sympathiser, eh?
I can't actually work out who the Queens brother in law was... ...but you don't choose your brother in law. I know someone who's brother in law is an arsonist. What do you propose he should do about that?
Yeah. In the modern world we see the Nazis through the prism of the Holocaust and the Hunger Plan. In the 30's they were the ones building motorways and giving everyone a radio and the promise of a car. They held an olympics there FFS. If Germany were considered (say) the way be consider North Korea that wouldn't have happened.
Yep they even gave Mr Chamberlain a nice letter, of which he was most proud....
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I know someone who's brother in law is an arsonist. What do you propose he should do about that?
Dress up as a Nazi 😉
Yep they even gave Mr Chamberlain a nice letter, of which he was most proud....
I'm not sure Chamberlain was that dumb. The Nazis broke just about every international agreement they ever made and Chamberlain was well aware of that. The UK wasn't ready for war. Getting some kind of no-war agreement was also popular in the UK which no politician can ignore.
Plus what about France? They were the major European land power at the time.
...and we all say Churchill was anti-appeasement. He wasn't anti-appeasement when it came to Russia who invaded Poland at the same time as Germany and then a few years later kept hold of all of it. Like Churchill, Chamberlain picked his fights.
Like Churchill, Chamberlain picked his fights.
Sort of missing my point, prior to WW2 and the final solution, Hitler and the 3rd Reich etc were just quite a popular right wing party, like UKIP in the UK and doing business with them / attending a rally wasn't really that extreme.
So someone giving the Nazi salute pre 1939 should be interpreted very differently from someone doing so post 1945....
Given Britain was in no position to do anything about the rise of the Nazi's, nor their subsequent invasions and land grabs, I'm not sure what options were open to us at that time
You should probably read up on the actual purpose behind the letter. It's actually a very interesting story.Yep they even gave Mr Chamberlain a nice letter, of which he was most proud....
The reason why dressing as a nazi is 'distasteful' is clearly the mass genocide still being very much within living memory. Remember that the extermination camps were only liberated a little over 70 years ago meaning that many survivors of the camps are still alive. If you'd been one of 100 survivors of a death march that 3000 starved and tortured inmates started you probably wouldn't find someone dressing up as your captor a particularly hilarious gag.
The crusades are looked on very differently because 800-1000 years ago was genuinely a different time. So much so that to anyone alive now it might as well have been on another planet.
So someone giving the Nazi salute pre 1939 should be interpreted very differently from someone doing so post 1945....
Agree, and I wasn't disputing that, I'd just made a similar point myself. I just think you were being a bit harsh on Chamberlain who wasn't especially taken in by the Nazis, he just couldn't sensibly go to war at that moment.
Given Britain was in no position to do anything about the rise of the Nazi's, nor their subsequent invasions and land grabs, I'm not sure what options were open to us at that time
Yup. The reason our red line was Poland is because that was the first point we could reasonably expect to take some kind of action.
If you'd been one of 100 survivors of a death march that 3000 starved and tortured inmates started you probably wouldn't find someone dressing up as your captor a particularly hilarious gag.
I think the opposite. I suspect they'd have no problem mocking the Nazis, they'd probably object to someone dressing up a child on the way to treblinka for laughs.
The Nazi's weren't immune to satire during the War itself, I see no reason why 70 years on they should someone get some kind of immunity from satire. In contrast I think their victims do have some kind of immunity from having the piss taken.
So much so that to anyone alive now it might as well have been on another planet.
well not necesarily
https://aleteia.org/2015/04/01/taliban-think-crusades-never-ended-says-****stani-archbishop/
prior to WW2 and the final solution, Hitler and the 3rd Reich etc were just quite a popular right wing party, like UKIP in the UK and doing business with them / attending a rally wasn't really that extreme.
So someone giving the Nazi salute pre 1939 should be interpreted very differently from someone doing so post 1945....
Really? I think most would suggest that the existence of the SA & SS, along with the Beer Hall Putsch of 1923 all distinguished the NSDAP very clearly as something very different from your 'normal right wing political party', a difference that was surely only cemented by the extra-judicial killings of the night of the long knives as far back as 1934.
I see no reason why 70 years on they should someone get some kind of immunity from satire
I agree, but I really don't see how dressing up as a nazi is satire, unless you're doing it in a satirical play, or as part of a comedy routine.
If you dress as a cowboy are you somehow being satirical about cowboys? 😐
Really? I think most would suggest that the existence of the SA & SS, along with the Beer Hall Putsch of 1923 all distinguished the NSDAP very clearly as something very different from your 'normal right wing political party', a difference that was surely only cemented by the extra-judicial killings of the night of the long knives as far back as 1934.
Also before the night of the long knives they were a [b]left[/b] wing party, with an unusually large number of homosexuals in their membership. IIRC the whole point of the Knight of the Long Knives was to get rid of the socialists and gays.
I really don't see how dressing up as a nazi is satire, unless you're doing it in a satirical play, or as part of a comedy routine.
Or going to a fancy dress party. Fancy dress parties are about taking the piss. People don't do it because they admire vicars or tarts.
Perhaps, but that doesn't make it satire.People don't do it because they admire vicars or tarts.
People don't do it because they admire vicars or tarts.
Perhaps,
There's no perhaps about it.
that doesn't make it satire.
I should have said piss-take instead of satire, it makes no difference to the point.
I should have said piss-take instead of satire, it makes no difference to the point.
Saying either won't make that much difference. I'm still not convinced that dressing up as a nazi is a way of taking the piss out of nazis. I'm not even convinced that fancy dress is a way of taking the piss out of anything. It's humorous, when done well, but it's not taking the piss out of whoever/whatever you dress as. When I said I'd dress as Ming the Merciless, you really think I'm trying to take the piss out of Ming the Merciless? If I went as Harry Potter, I'd be taking the piss out of Harry Potter? If I went as Jimi Hendrix, I'd be taking the piss out of Jimi Hendrix? etc etc
Sorry, but I don't buy the fancy dress is piss-take|satire - or at least not universally or systematically.
When I said I'd dress as Ming the Merciless, you really think I'm trying to take the piss out of Ming the Merciless?
YES, if I saw you at a party dressed as Ming the Merciless I would not for one second think "orangespyderman genuinely admires Ming". I'd just assume you were having a laugh. Is that not the case?
Sorry, but I don't buy the fancy dress is piss-take|satire
So to you, Halloween parties are full of people who genuinely admire vampires and Freddy Krueger.
So to you, Halloween parties are full of people who genuinely admire vampires and Freddy Krueger
Absolutely not. However, I suspect some people probably do have a sort of fascination for vampires and read vampire literature or watch vampire movies and would love to use the opportunity to dress as one - see also Cosplay. Can you at least see that the same may be true of those dressed as nazis?
The vampires and Kruegers aren't "taking the piss out of" Freddy Krueger or vampires either let alone offering any sort of satire (if we assume that piss-take and satire are just varying degrees of the same).
orangespyderman - MemberSorry, but I don't buy the fancy dress is piss-take|satire - or at least not universally or systematically.
Google harvest festivals or winter festivals. There are thousands to chose from as it's a common thread among almost every civilization in human history. Practices differ from place to place but fancy dress is widespread.
Dressing up as death, or as some monster or other is about confronting the taboos around death and the afterlife. Other examples had people swapping gender roles or flipping cultural norms on their heads.
I get that there are cases where it is so, and haven't denied. But when the nextdoor neighbors throw a fancy dress party they're not confronting any taboos, except possibly noise regulations, so I'm still not buying the fact that universally and systematically they are somehow a pisstake or satire and so Nazis should be fair game as they deserve a bit of satire. They do, but fancy dress parties with music and games of beer pong are not satire.
I even provided an example (cosplay) where they clearly aren't, but all those arguing the opposite corner have ignored that as it doesn't fit.
If you wanted to dress as a 'baddie' for fancy dress what/who would you choose? Maybe give a couple of examples.
Ming the Merciless, perhaps?
Interesting choice there, I was going to mention him myself earier.
I was at a con a year or so back where someone cosplayed as Ming the Merciless - and it caused a right shitstorm. At the centre of it was a "person of colour" and as far as I could tell professional stroppy cow with a bag of chips on her shoulder who I probably shouldn't name.
Anyway, long story short, it transpired that Ming was born of the [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Peril ]Yellow Peril[/url] fears at the time. Flash Gordon was the mighty West, fighting off those dangerous Oriental types who are going to come over here and take over. At best Ming is a lazy stereotype, at worst he's racist propaganda.
The guy playing Ming at the con had no idea about any of this, he just thought it was a cool costume. He immediately apologised and got changed once he found out, poor lad was absolutely mortified. The fallout rolled on for [i]days [/i]after the con had ended.
Still wanna play Ming? Darth Vader (probably a Gestapo analogy) might be a safer bet. (-:
orangespyderman - MemberI get that there are cases where it is so, and haven't denied. But when the nextdoor neighbors throw a fancy dress party they're not confronting any taboos, except possibly noise regulations, so I'm still not buying the fact that universally and systematically they are somehow a pisstake or satire and so Nazis should be fair game as they deserve a bit of satire. They do, but fancy dress parties with music and games of beer pong are not satire.
You're getting hung up on a narrow definition of satire, probably because you're trying to find malice and motive where none exists. Men attend fancy dress parties dressed as women because it's a reversal of social norms - a taboo and it's fun to break taboos. It doesn't necessarily point to some latent desire to become a woman.
If someone attends a party dressed as Freddy Krueger it doesn't mean they have a desire to be a badly mutilated undead child molester, they are assuming the role of a monster, or death. It's just a modern bogeyman.
Still wanna play Ming? Darth Vader (probably a Gestapo analogy) might be a safer bet. (-:
Good luck finding fictional characters that aren't inspired by someone or something in real life. Is it ok to dress up as Red Skull from the Captain America comics? What about Voldemort from Harry Potter? Apparently he was heavily inspired by Hitler, as many fictional villains have.
Goodluck finding fictional characters that aren't inspired by someone or something in real life.
Sure, and her reaction to an honest mistake was massively OTT.
Later that day threw a huge strop in the middle of a panel and stormed out because she was sick of being interrupted by men - in a debate where everyone was interrupting everyone else. Literally the entire room was like, "WTF just happened there?" The host was one of the nicest guys in the industry (and offered on the spot to scrap the panel and retire from conventions) and the event was one where the con is almost secondary to its inclusion / tolerance / accessibility / safe spaces policies.
Point is... actually, what was my point, I've forgotten?
Cougar - ModeratorSure, and her reaction to [b]an honest mistake[/b] was massively OTT.
There was no mistake. Ming the Merciless is no more Chinese than Voldemort is a German, or Dracula is Romanian or The Mummy is Egyptian.