[Closed] Is the UK a Christian Country?

Of course the UK is a Christian country. Christianity, specifically Anglican Christianity is big business :

Value of investment portfolio £5.3bn
Fixed interest equities £3.5bn
Property, loans, short-term deposits £1.8bn
Return on investments 15.2%
Annual investment income £177.8m
Central land holdings: 112,000 acres
Local land holdings: 129,000 acres

To emphasise the connection between the C of E and the state:

Thirty-three Church Commissioners manage the property and stock market assets of the Church of England. Six of these commissioners who have ex officio membership hold state office. They include the prime minister and the sport & culture minister. All the commissioners are accountable to Parliament.

The UK is a secular country. We have some anachronisms from an earlier age but the majority of people in the UK are non believers

Here come the Angry Atheists again.

The UK is a Christian country. There is an established religion that determines the head of state (or possibly the other way around 😕 ). The constitution has at its heart a Christian concept. Christian metaphors and language permeates the dominant language. The country's timetable is organised around Christian events and the Christian sabbath. Most of the population professes Christianity (even if they never actually show up to a church). Christian organisations are major providers of education.

I can't see how anyone would argue that the UK is not a Christian country - if any non-theocratic country can be described as being of any religion.

"Many people tell me it is much easier to be Jewish or Muslim here in Britain than it is in a secular country like France," he said.

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Why? Because the tolerance that Christianity demands of our society provides greater space for other religious faiths too.

No - because in France an assimilationist approach was adopted in the 50s and 60s whereas in the UK a multicultural approach was adopted. The French model was inherently flawed and doomed because it was predicated on the existence of a unitary French culture into which everyone could fit, which ignored the past, the present (of the time) and the likely future.

The idea of Britain as a 'christian country' is a hangover from the Christendom worldview that has its origins in the Constantinian Settlement which took place nearly 2,000 year ago. It represented the point where the early church swapped uncertainty and intermittent persecution at the hands of the Romans for a seat at the table of power and influence. It's understandable why that opportunity was attractive at the time, but with the benefit of hindsight, many Christians in the west now consider that decision to be the worst thing the church ever did.

Conversely, the perception that Western Europe is now in a period that is termed 'post-Christendom' is seen as a tremendous opportunity for the Christians in the west to rediscover a more constructive relationship with wider society. In particular, I'd like to see us free from politicians like Cameron who feel at liberty to co-opt a domesticated version of Christianity for their own ends. If he really believed what he read in the Bible, he would be terrified to allow the marginalisation of the poor and needy in the way he does.

Speaking as a Christian, I have no desire at all to serve as a chaplain for David Cameron's vision of a society hopelessly addicted to the acquisition of wealth without thought for the consequence.

When a politician is so bereft of ideas that, having failed to sell the only nonsense he had to offer ("Big Society") he resorts to proselytising on behalf of risible superstitious gibberish as a way forward, he merits only the receipt of contempt.

The UK is a secular country. We have some anachronisms from an earlier age but the majority of people in the UK are non believers

You do realise that one doesn't necessarily follow the other? I suspect you'll also find a lot more people than you think are "believers" in so far as they believe in something. Going to church every week (or even once a year) isn't a necessary pre-requisite to being a Christian.

When a politician is so bereft of ideas that, having failed to sell the only nonsense he had to offer ("Big Society") he resorts to proselytising on behalf of risible superstitious gibberish as a way forward, he merits only the receipt of contempt.

So did you read the link, Mr Woppit? Just as far as the 2nd sentence will do. What else do you expect him to talk about in a speech about the bible?

Those posters on here who don't read links and/or twist everything to suit their own political agenda are far more worthy of contempt.

What else do you expect him to talk about in a speech about the bible?

He should keep his bizarre weekend activities to himself, frankly.

he resorts to proselytising on behalf of risible superstitious gibberish as a way forward

Very true, but he's not the only one who continues to believe in the efficacy of capitalism, despite all the evidence to the contrary

This may seem at first glance to be a little americanized but seeing as we're a subsidiary of USA PLC I thought it relevant..

Rusty Spanner - Member

The major Ibrahamic religions stole some wonderful ideas from secular society and rebranded them as their own

Well that's a stunning claim to make. I was not aware of any evidence to show that before "pre-Abrahamic religions" there existed secular societies ...... got anything to back that up with ?

Indeed iirc Karl Marx asserts that the first step from primitive communism to class-based society occurred with the advent of religion, ie, as the need arose for priests to satisfy the 'spiritual' needs of society a new class arose which was longer part of the productive structure, but wholly dependant on it. And contrary to the commonly held belief, priesthood is the world's oldest profession. I think Marx was probably right - unless you know better ?

If he really believed what he read in the Bible, he would be terrified to allow the marginalisation of the poor and needy in the way he does.

Unfortunately, when it comes to money, the likes of him and his kind become very "unchristian". Not a complete surprise I suppose as the morality that many religions are based upon was around long before religion itself, and there has always been self-interested people since year dot.

I'd like to see us free from politicians like Cameron

An excellent post ditch_jockey, but what did you really expect? This is a democracy, we elect who the majority of us want.

So if we value materialism then we vote for whoever's likely to indulge us. The lip service to Christianity is simply a consequence of electoral pressures.

Unfortunately, when it comes to money, the likes of him and his kind become very "unchristian".

Unfortunately, the morality associated with Christianity seems to have been sidelined into discussions about 'gayness' and women priests, both of which attract little attention throughout the Bible, along with risible guff like smoking, drinking and going to the pictures. The big issue that both Testaments return to again and again is how a community treats [i]"widows, orphans and aliens"[/i] - three groups that represented the least influential and most vulnerable groups in society. The treatment of these groups are consistently presented as the barometer of how [i]'godly'[/i]any community is.

The country's timetable is organised around Christian events and the Christian sabbath.

Agree with your post Konabunny, but the main festivals were present long before christianity - and merely hijacked/re-branded by them. Mid-winter, spring/fertility etc.

And just to be clear, we're keeping Christmas and Easter - you can have all the other crap back anytime you want.

Technically speaking, Easter should co-incide with the Jewish festival of Passover. I think the Eastern Orthodox churches calculate the date around that, so we could switch to that system and leave the pagans with the Spring Equinox to dance about naked or whatever they want to do.

Is the UK a Christian Country?

Christian county - correct
Secular society - correct

Next question?

Next question?

MU 3-1 (easy, and I know nowt about f'ball!)

Thanks.
*runs off to bookies*

Hi all,

I am a believing Christian, but I've always felt a bit sheepish about the idea of the religious establishment being written into the political, social and economic structure of the country; more-so, now, when the sort of statement made by the Prime Minister is a short hand for telling Sun readers that he's secretly on their level when it comes to immigrants. It's not new; the Tories have been doing it for years, by utterly belying the teachings of Jesus in their belief in the good of economic inequality while trotting out cartoon Xtianity when they want to spit on someone: usually a poor someone with a darker tone of skin than was the norm in Grantham when Maggie was a girl (was it Grantham? I can't be bothered to delve).

Anyone drawn to or saddled with Christianity as their natural expression of faith has to study a bit, in order to dig beneath the layers of power structures,distortions, simplifications and over-complex-ifications (not a word, I know) that history has dumped on the faith, but, when I gave up the struggle to be an atheist, and realised that I SIMPLY BELIEVE I was fortunate to be told to concentrate on the teachings of Jesus and ignore everything else.

Everything he taught is opposed to the idea of exclusion. He walked with the poor, the despised and the wrong-headed and he gave them hope, but he didn't turn away the rich or the soldier, or the politician (Pilate). The idea that a religion grown from him should be a badge of exclusion underpinning policies of hatred and mistrust is repulsive.

I've always thought George Bush is, at heart, an atheist cynic, although it is mean to doubt someone's faith, and I thought the same of Osama Bin Laden. When politicians, whose faith is so obviously their own power and the wealth of nations and of their own cliques, hang their hatred or policies of convenience on to the faith I love, I have a hard time not thinking the same of them.

I really wish this forum had 'like' buttons or something similar. There is so much good stuff in this thread I'd like to give a thumbs-up to.

Indeed iirc Karl Marx asserts that the first step from primitive communism to class-based society occurred with the advent of religion, ie, as the need arose for priests to satisfy the 'spiritual' needs of society a new class arose which was longer part of the productive structure, but wholly dependant on it. And contrary to the commonly held belief, priesthood is the world's oldest profession. I think Marx was probably right - unless you know better ?

yes Marx creator of the religion known as communism, and much like other religions its utter shit and has lead to the deaths of millions.

yes Marx creator of the religion known as communism, and much like other religions its utter shit and has lead to the deaths of millions.

OK, having established that we're talking Karl Marx "creator of the religion known as communism" and not Groucho Marx, do you agree with his assertion that the first step from primitive communism to class-based society occurred with the advent of religion, ie, as the need arose for priests to satisfy the 'spiritual' needs of society a new class arose which was longer part of the productive process, but wholly dependant on it. And contrary to the commonly held belief, priesthood is the world's oldest profession ?

Well do you or not ?

I'm still waiting....

[img] [/img]

This is a democracy, we elect who the majority of us want.

the main festivals were present long before christianity - and merely hijacked/re-branded by them. Mid-winter, spring/fertility etc.

Quite true but I think their importance today is as Christian festivals even if based on pre-Christian rites. Presumably there are plenty of pre-Christian religious things that most people in the UK haven't heard of because the Christians didn't adopt them.

Marx creator of the religion known as communism, and much like other religions its utter shit and has lead to the deaths of millions.

Marxism is not a religion. You're simply talking nonsense about something you don't like (which, to be fair, is pretty much the standard fare on internet forums 😆 ).

Marxism is not a religion. You're simply talking nonsense about something you don't like (which, to be fair, is pretty much the standard fare on internet forums

i should have said its like a religion, there a bloke with a beard that wrote a book, and if you don't believe/follow instruction/directives/teachings etc things in said book, you get killed. Yep sounds like a religion to me.

do you agree with his assertion that the first step from primitive communism to class-based society occurred with the advent of religion, ie, as the need arose for priests to satisfy the 'spiritual' needs of society a new class arose which was longer part of the productive process, but wholly dependant on it. And contrary to the commonly held belief, priesthood is the world's oldest profession ?

i would like to know what sources Marx used to gain the assertion that primitive society was a communist society.

a bloke with a beard that wrote a book, and if you don't believe/follow instruction/directives/teachings etc things in said book, you get killed. Yep sounds like a religion to me.

Ignoring your insult about bearded revolutionaries, I think it's probably fair to point out that although like the great marxist patriot James Connolly I take my religion from Rome but my politics from home, I haven't felt the urge to kill anyone so far this week.

Anyway, you still haven't answered the question one way or the other. I take it you don't disagree with Marx otherwise you would clearly have said so, you obviously just can't bring yourself to admit agreeing with him.

Fair enough, we'll leave at that - I need to get busy with stuff for the big Christian feast which is coming up far too quickly.

In as much as that early/primitive societiess were often on the brink of destruction through starvation and/or weather events and that the only way to survive as a society would be to band together for the common good then yes, it was a form of proto-communism.
Humans are not naturally slfish i believe, when living in small communal groupings where people know everyone else the urge to defend that society is strong, when we live apart from each other in a huge amorphous and faceless mass we become selfish.

Some good stuff on here, i'm atheistic but i agree completely with ditch_jockey et.al, if i were a real Christian i too would be bloody embarrassed to hear him trot out this guff.

Early humans were cannibals...and you are part of the Bourgeoisie , that bike you own is a life times wages for some people on this planet!

and you are part of the Bourgeoisie

You know how to ruin someone's weekend, dontcha ?

Humans are cannabalistic now - at least our Western 'grab what you can' Societies are indulging in a free for all at the buffet...

Early humans were cannibals..

now you just listen 'ere young man..

my dear old mum is almost quite primitive and she's never ate a single 'nother soul in 'er whole life..

a bloke with a beard that wrote a book, and if you don't believe/follow instruction/directives/teachings etc things in said book, you get killed. Yep sounds like a religion to me.

Got it.

But what happens when the clean-shaven espouse the beliefs of the hirsute? Are the Burmese Way To Socialism (Ne Win, Sein Lwin - clean shaven) and Juche (Kim Il-sung, Kim Jong-il - not even slightly hairy) religions or not??? WE NEEDS TO KNOW!

I'm pretty sure we're still heathen. 2000 years of oppressive religion and the british get pissed, fight and shag in the street. Still.

Makes you proud.

So the critical difference between Marxism as a religion (Marx, Engels - beard) and fascism (Neitzsche, Hitler, Wagner - moustaches) / Ba'athism (Michel Aflaq, Salah al-Din al-Bitar - clean shaven) / Rukhanaist ideology (Nursultan Nazarbayev - clean shaven) / Jamahiriya (Colonel Gadaffi - scruffy goatee) is the facial hair of the primary authors?

yes they are all just nut jobs that have caused more harm than good.

TandemJeremy - Member
The UK is a secular country. We have some anachronisms from an earlier age but the majority of people in the UK are non believers

I don't see a problem with a claim that the UK is a Christian country:

- the church is heavily embedded in the structures of the country, from the Head of State automatically being the head of the Church of England, to the fact that Bishops are entrenched in the House of Lords.
- Christianity is clearly entrenched in our legal system, not only from the values and some of the laws we have but down to the fact that the default "Oath" in courts is to swear on a Bible.
- whilst "the Churches" continue to influence political policy on same sex marriage / adoption etc it is hard to believe that their views don't hold weight with a significant sector of the population.
- the census says that people voluntarily answered a question where the majority say they are Christian,
- a significant proportion of Education is still run by the Christian churches, and even those which are supposedly non-denominational will hold Christmas and Easter services etc.
- we seem to accept a copy of the bible being given to every child by the Gideons but there would be outcry if someone started doing the same with e.g. the Quoran,
- even total non-believers like me still "enjoy" the religious holidays at Christmas and Easter etc - whilst it is true to say that many of the trappings of these festivals existed before christianity prevailed, and that much of it is so commercialised to make the Churches extremely uncomfortable with it - its also true that some of the bits we would find hardest to give up are references to the christian variant of these festivals (presents at Christmas, eggs at easter!).

Whilst I would agree that I see very little evidence of active participation in religion, there is passive acceptance of the status quo even from many people who would argue strongly that religion has no place in societies norms.

Perhaps it is even possible to be christian (the adjective rather than the noun) without believing in god or subscribing to Christianity? If you consider being christian (with a small "c") a set of values rather than fundamental beliefs then probably the vast majority of people are actually christian! I'm not sure if the churches would rather we were all christian or Christians?

Off on a tangent a bit, but at this time of yr even people like me enjoy a little church music. Throughout the centuries the musical tradition of the Church had produced some awe-inspiring music - from Handel's Messiah to the old Carols etc.

Do the other major religions have such a tradition of great music?

Serious question as i really don't know.

yes islamic music is only narrowly surpassed by their art works 😉

Strict adherence means they do neither

Regardless of one's personal religion it is hard to argue that the UK isn't a Christian country.

Most people in the country see themselves as "Church of [b]England[/b]" and church and state are pretty much inseparable given that the Queen is head of the church and our constitutional monarchy is totally bound up with the church.

Looking at it from the other direction, how is the country organised and run? At the lowest level of organisation the country is divided up by [b]Parish[/b]

And why are we all having a few days off next week?

Er.... i think quite a lot of folk might just see themselves as Church of Scotland and the Catholic Church, let alone what those recidivists in Wales worship... 😉

And why are we all having a few days off next week?

I'm taking a few days off because every other lazy arse bastard is too and they don't want me banging and crashing round tneir houses. 🙂

If this is a Christian country then a LOT of people haven't read their bible.

I see nothing particularly christian out there...

Er.... i think quite a lot of folk might just see themselves as Church of Scotland and the Catholic Church, let alone what those recidivists in Wales worship...

Population of England 50 million +
Population f Scotland 5 million +
Population of Wales 3 million +
Population of N Ireland < 2 million

[b]Most[/b] people in the country see themselves as "Church of England"

And why are we all having a few days off next week?

Have you never heard of Beltain? You do know it's a subverted pagan festival?

And why are we all having a few days off next week?

EDIT: Too slow

Pagan mid-winter feast that the christians failed to stamp-out so they rebranded it. Safe to say it has no christian meaning at all.

It does to most Christians, which is all that matters. Who cares if it wasn't originally theirs - to most people, even those (the majority?) who understand it was originally a pagan festival and not historically accurate, it's a celebration of the Christian faith.

I bet the pagans stole it from somebody else.

it's a celebration of the Christian faith.

Do the other major religions have such a tradition of great music?

The two vital ingredients which all known societies have always had, throughout history and prehistory, and throughout the world, no matter how varied they might be, is religion and music.

Both of which on the face of it would appear unnecessary and pointless. But since I know of no exception to that rule then I reckon it must be accepted that those two requirements are a prerequisite for a successful society.

Certainly any societies which developed as atheist and music-free came to a dead-end, died a death, and left no trace of their existence.

Religion, music, and art, however pointless they might seem to be, are intrinsically linked with the exceptional evolutionary success of human society.

.

Strict adherence means they do neither

There is always a place for such frivolous activities when it comes to praising Allah.

An orgy of food, booze and stuff is a celebration of christian faith? Really?

Maybe not, but how about the nativity play - I believe a lot of schools still do one of those.

Maybe not, but how about the nativity play - I believe a lot of schools still do one of those.

An orgy of food, booze and stuff is a celebration of christian faith? Really?

Of course it's a celebration of christian faith.

Now you might not think that it's the best way to celebrate the christian faith, but that's a different issue all together. Christianity goes to the very heart of the Christmas celebrations, that's why it's celebrated in Britain rather than a Hindu, Muslim, or whatever other religious festival you care to choose.

wooooooohoooooooo... only four more sleeps til sostice..!! 😀 😀

Pagan scumbag.

that's why it's celebrated in Britain rather than a Hindu, Muslim, or whatever other religious festival you care to choose.

OK it's "odd".....so what ?

It's still not a Hindu or Muslim religious festival.

Christmas is celebrated in Britain because of Britain's Christian tradition/heritage.

If you get pissed on the wrong day is irrelevant.

An orgy of food, booze and stuff

Speak for yourself.

Odd that[b] we[/b] were celebrating it before the [alleged] birth of christ.

The use of the "we" there reminds me of the Mitchell and Web football sketch.

You've got a good memory. That's fact is it? All of the pre Christian Britains (whoever they might have been, can you trace your ancestors back that far?) were involved in the winter solstice?

rightplacerighttime - Member
An orgy of food, booze and stuff
Speak for yourself.

i think youll find hes speaking for most of the people in this country
93% of whom will not be going to church this xmas
if only 7% can be arsed to go worship on jebus' birthday then this isnt a christian country

I refer you to the census figures given earlier.

Pagan scumbag.

On Solstice Black Peter will be here with Old Nick to take away the bad children and leave a present and some coal or a Yule log for the good kids..

ernie_lynch - "The two vital ingredients which all known societies have always had, throughout history and prehistory, and throughout the world, no matter how varied they might be, is religion and music.

Both of which on the face of it would appear unnecessary and pointless. But since I know of no exception to that rule then I reckon it must be accepted that those two requirements are a prerequisite for a successful society."

All societies have also had crime and disease but it doesn't mean we need them though. The need for religion is a flaw in the human character. It's time we got over it.

I'm not sure why you think disease is a characteristic of human society, although it's fair to say that crime in varying degrees is.

However crime is also a widespread characteristic of non-human society - nature is more than happy to allow and encourage theft, murder, violence, coveting your neighbour's house, bigamy, and so on. Both within species and between species. There is no evidence that it necessarily hinders the success of a species and can never be positive.

Religion in contrast is totally unique to human society. And there is no evidence that it represents, in itself, "a flaw" in the human character. In fact there is plenty to suggest otherwise as human society's impressive evolutionary success and religion have always gone hand in hand.

Presumably the rules and protocols it lays down has a significant positive effect on organisational issues and helps combat negative ones such as crime and disease.

Otherwise there would not have been the overwhelming prevalence of religion in all societies throughout history, and atheistic societies would have gained the evolutionary upper hand.

Religion and spiritual/mystical feelings are bury deep in our DNA and the human brain has evolved to exploit them for beneficial evolutionary purposes. Don't place humans on some sort of pedestal, we are at the mercy of evolutionary processes just like any other species. We are really not that special.

Now if you want to reject all existing religions and feel they should be replaced by something "better", then that's a whole different issue. But it's quite wrong to describe religion as having been a "flaw in the human character", and wrong to believe that you can simply remove it and leave a void in its place - you'll never do that.

rightplacerighttime - Member

Regardless of one's personal religion it is hard to argue that the UK isn't a Christian country.

Well, no it isn't, it's a simple matter of statistics- the overwhelming majority of people aren't practicing christians. Even if you believe the assorted church's figures, which are of course Incredible Bull***t, that's still the case (Church of Scotland records me as a Christian, because I was christened, frinstance- that's how strong their argument is, they need to enlist random atheists)

What we do have, is an overall moral code heavily influenced by Christianity and by the same underlying morals that influenced Christianity (and most other world religions). I'm not religious but I live what could be considered a fairly christian life. This is not the same as being a christian country but it does explain why Cameron can get away with talking such astonishing s**t.

We are a Christian-compatible country. Not sure we can be quite described as secular, since we don't have correct seperation of church and state but hopefully we'll lose that last dark ages stuff soon.

Not sure we can be quite described as secular, since we don't have correct seperation of church and state

Hence we are Christian 🙄

I'm also fairly sure that the CofS / CofE didn't fill in the religion bit on atheists census forms.

aracer - Member

Hence we are Christian

Er... Would you like to try to explain your strange non-sequitor or are you just going to stick with "X, therefore Y"?

The census as I'm sure you know gives results which can't be reconciled with other surveys, at least partly because of its incredible leading question, "What is your religion" rather than "do you have a religion"

Did you see the BHA counter-survey that came out shortly after? The sample group was asked the same question, and over 60% of people said they were Christian. Then they were asked "Are you religious" and only 30% said they were. Less than half of the Christians believed Christ was the son of god, which is... challenging.

A similiar one (which I can't find, rats) asked the "What is your religion" question and got a high-70s result, then asked "Do you believe in a god" and got 25% yes.

Clearly when you get answers like this, you're asking the wrong question.

- we seem to accept a copy of the bible being given to every child by the Gideons but there would be outcry if someone started doing the same with e.g. the Quoran,

hear hear northwind. this is a humanist country, and we are about to have a communal ceremony to pick each other up during the darkest day of the dark months. which is why i will be celebrating with food, drink and best of all, friends
ive no time for christians- they always seem to be full of judgement not love

ive no time for christians- they always seem to be full of judgement not love

That's kind of judgemental...

@Northwind

Did you see the BHA counter-survey that came out shortly after? The sample group was asked the same question, and over 60% of people said they were Christian. Then they were asked "Are you religious" and only 30% said they were.

And did you see the question at the top of the thread?

Was it : "Is the UK a [b]Religeous[/b] Country?"

You're the one asking (answering) the wrong question.

ive no time for christians- they always seem to be full of judgement not love

Do you know any?

I know loads (though I'm not one myself) and they all seem quite nice.

"christmas" is the pagan midwinter festival missapropriated

TJ, when you say missapropriated

do you mean it is wrong?

Do you think that everyone who has ever celebrated Christmas without covering themselves with woad, tucking into a delicious meal of a bit of burnt wild animal and some nettles, washed down with some psychotropic mushroom juice and then spent the night outside in the freezing cold near some big stones is just not getting into the right spirit and failing to fulfil their authentic proper British (although obviously way before anyone even considered the concept of Britain, England or the UK) role?

 

The census as I'm sure you know gives results which can't be reconciled with other surveys, at least partly because of its incredible leading question, "What is your religion" rather than "do you have a religion"

Yes it did say that.

Right underneath that it said [b]"This Question is Voluntary"[/b]

And right underneath that, the first available answer was [b]"No Religion"[/b]

So you can't be suggesting that people felt trapped into putting down Christian or whatever through lack of other options ?

.
If the question was "what type of car do you drive"

And the options were.

No car
Ford
Renault
Etc.
Etc.

Anyone without a car would be well enough catered for wouldn't they ?

The use of the descriptive "void" or "god shaped hole" applied to a removal of any particular superstition doesn't match my own experience.

Fortunately for me, the attempt to indoctrinate me into the xtian cult wasn't made until I was 11, so I was able to work out for myself that it was just a lot of fairy stories, essentially, and reject it completely.

It didn't feel like an absence of anything, more like a wound that was the result of being attacked, being healed to make me whole again.

"christmas" is the pagan midwinter festival missapropriated

Love it ! 😀

In their quest to satisfy their bitter intolerance and prejudices against Christianity, is it amusing to see how some will clutch at straws.

Yes, some local traditions have been absorbed into Christianity, but whilst we might enjoy a "yule log", and it's part of our Christmas for example, it is not part of the universal Christmas tradition - Christmas itself is not a pagan festival.

And for further examples if you were to attend a mass in Ugandan/Ghanaian you would find significant differences to a mass in English, with chanting and dancing typical of pre-Christian religious celebrations in Uganda/Ghana. It's still a Christian mass though. Likewise rosary beads are definitely catholic, despite the idea having originally been borrowed from Muslim prayer beads.

And it's not only religion which borrows from past traditions. The monarchy and the House of Lords were "misappropriated" from the old feudal system, they are now an integral part of bourgeois parliamentary democracy. You can't claim that the Opening of Parliament by the Queen is a feudal celebration ........unless you are particularly daft.

BTW, if the pagans had a "midwinter festival" it wouldn't have been on the 25th of december which is only 3 days into winter.

BTW, if the pagans had a "midwinter festival" it wouldn't have been on the 25th of december which is only 3 days into winter.

I thought the winter solstice was 'midwinter'

ernie_lynch - Member

"christmas" is the pagan midwinter festival missapropriated

Love it !

In their quest to satisfy their bitter intolerance and prejudices against Christianity, is it amusing to see how some will clutch at straws.

Maybe it's not a prejudice?
Maybe it's a rational decision to dislike religion based on first hand experience?

However, I agree that the 'Pagan Christmas' argument is pointless:
As an atheist I just enjoy Christmas for my own hypocritally selfish reasons.
I love the fact it makes people happy.
Really, what's not to like?