[Closed] Is the UK a Christian Country?

has to be far more satisfying than arguing with TJ

Arguing with TJ is ace.

Neal.

I say " I do not believe"

You then tell me that is a belief?

The fact I do not believe in god is not a belief - its a lack of belief. A very different thing

Aracer - you could always ask questions with meaning 🙂

you could always ask questions with meaning

I did 🙄

It was only when you said that

because you accepted that you did not believe in a god, you were left with the conclusion that there is no god

Once i have accepted that I do not believe in god then there is only one possibility. There is no god

I'm really struggling to see how these two statements are different, and I do not keep misquoting you, show me where else I did it. You claimed it earlier, but i couldn't see it there either

yep i dont see any difference there either tbh.
however

The fact I do not believe in god is not a belief - its a lack of belief. A very different thing

Errmmm - differnt words with different meanings. earlier you did the same paraphrased which changed the meaning.

Your version "its my interpretation that there is no god". Mine - " once the postulate is accepted that I do not believe in god then the only logical possibility is that there is no god".

Yours is back to it being my belief, mine is that its because i do not believe

Your version "its my interpretation that there is no god". Mine - " once the postulate is accepted that I do not believe in god then the only logical possibility is that there is no god".

Yours is back to it being my belief, mine is that its because i do not believe

No, i just don't see that at all. Unless you think that is implied in the difference between "there is only one possibility" and "there is only one conclusion"

But really, I'm not trying to pretend you are saying something else. It's the point of you saying "there is no god" then saying that "no god" is meaningless.

I really do understand that you don't believe god exists, and I recognise that is different from believing god doesn't exist. Which is something which you do not do.

At least part of the problem is the vocabulary is crap- as discussed a bit about 5 pages ago atheists come in different flavours, and your basic atheist, the negative atheist (I believe in no gods) is very different from the positive atheist (I believe there is no god). One has no faith or religion, the other makes a faith of irreligion.

Now, theist chauvinism unfortunately means that the logical position (that "negative atheism" actually isn't a thing at all, it's the absence of a thing) doesn't work. People's assumption is that they'll find a belief if they scratch away enough- lots of that in this thread. So, we do need a word, to help deal with that false assumption.

(to use an old analogy- we have a word for cyclists; we don't have a word for noncyclists, because "not cycling" isn't something you do. But if you were from a society where historically everyone cycled you might end up inventing acylistism to make it easier for myopic cyclists to understand that you aren't one of them.)

So, that's atheism I suppose- it's literally correct, "without god" or "absence of god". So what I reckon need a new word for, is the positive atheists, the people who passionately believe that there is no god. Antitheists, perhaps. The antithesis of theists 😉

The border between the Real and the Unreal is not fixed, but just marks the last place where rival gangs of shamans fought each other to a standstill..

[i]Robert Anton Wilson[/i]

I don't think that solves the tj problem. For he would not be able to say if he belonged in the second group or not, now.

Charlie - if you were looking for answers rather than looking to try to trip me up or to catch me in a logical trap then you might find one.

I have done my best to be clear. If you wished to or were able to understand I am sure you would.

I do not believe in gods. this is not the same as beliving there are no gods.

Charlie - if you were looking for answers rather than looking to try to trip me up or to catch me in a logical trap then you might find one.

I have done my best to be clear. If you wished to or were able to understand I am sure you would.

i do not believe in gods. this is not the same as beliving there are no gods.

TJ, is there a god?

I'm trying to extract from you what you do believe / know / think. It might be easier as a direct question

and therein is your fallacy - the bit you cannot grasp. I[b] do not believe[/b] in gods, thats all there is to it. its a fallacy to think I must believe in something

yes you are wrong in your paraphrase of my statement.

is there a god? No

and therein is your fallacy - the bit you cannot grasp. I do not believe in gods, thats all there is to it. its a fallacy to think I must believe in something

well, i understand you do not believe in gods. i don't claim that there is any logical link to this about what you do believe in, unless it is one you make yourself. i was clear to say know / believe / think.

because it is this question "is there a god ?" which is at the heart of what i have been asking. I have quoted you previously as saying 'there is no god' only to be told that i am misquoting you. so i whilst i am grateful to reach this point, where you answer the question directly, i am at a loss as to why you could not have made it clear earlier. Surely you do not see a difference between your response and the statement "there is no god". Do you?

Anyway having got to here, which is where i thought we were a few pages back. We now only need to establish if your response is one based on knowledge, belief or opinion. I assume you say it is knowledge, right?

So what I reckon need a new word for, is the positive atheists, the people who passionately believe that there is no god. Antitheists, perhaps. The antithesis of theists

We already have a term for this; it's "New Atheism."

Trufax.

No charlie - you simply do not understand the concept.

Surely you do not see a difference between your response and the statement "there is no god". Do you?

yes - the bit you seem unable and unwilling to understand to understand.

charlie well, i understand you do not believe in gods.[b] i don't claim that there is any logical link to this about what you do believe in,[/b] unless it is one you make yourself. i was clear to say know / believe / think.

We now only need to establish if your response is one based on knowledge, belief or opinion.

so then you ask me about my belief again 🙄

Its based on the absence of belief. which is not the same as a belief.

Wow this is exciting. Ladies and gentlemen I believe we have identified the first non-evolving thread.

Creationists are already saying that a thread that's born this perfect and doesn't change or alter course over several days must be proof of supreme intelligence.

Atheists are suddenly on the back foot, but most are able to shrug off this single instance of thread non-evolution as abnormal Internet activity. Non-belief in the existence of non-evolving threads, they argue, does not imply the non-existence of evolving threads.

To think that one of the longest-running questions in human history may at last be settled on STW. It's one of those 'I was there' moments...

Oh wait...

No charlie - you simply do not understand the concept.

Surely you do not see a difference between your response and the statement "there is no god". Do you?

yes - the bit you seem unable and unwilling to understand to understand.

I really do not understand

"Is there a god? No"
is the same as
"There is no god"

Unless you mean "There is not a god"

but i can't see any other interpretation of the answer 'no'

We now only need to establish if your response is one based on knowledge, belief or opinion.
[b]so then you ask me about my belief again[/b]

No, i'm asking you what it is, i don't assume it's belief and it is unrelated to your non-belief. it is a separate question. It always has been

I have kidnapped at random a small child a puppy and a cat. If this thread does not end by noon i will execute them.

the puppy is really cute.

I have kidnapped at random a small child a puppy and a cat. If this thread does not end by noon i will execute them.

the puppy is really cute.

very simple way of ending it, tell me

Is
"is there a god? - No"
the same as
"there is no god"

very simple way of ending it, tell me

Is
"is there a god? - No"
the same as
"there is no god"

[u]That's[/u] going to end it?

One's a question followed by a declaration of negative opinion, the other's a straightforward atheistic statement.

In that sense they are not the same.

Done.

Now, are the puppy and small child safe?

no, you have explain yourself first

I have explain myself?

We're on a deadline here, dude. A puppy, cat and small child are 80 minutes away from a tragic end...

Bigger picture time.

the last couple of pages of this thread have been rather like watching two of your mates who are pissed out of their face in the pub, arguing about something they're convinced is profound, but which the more sober of us realise is just the incoherent meanderings of an alcohol befuddled brain.

Next thing we know Charlie will be demanding a kebab and TJ will be telling a policeman that he's his best mate!

Mark Darcy vs Daniel Cleaver outside a Greek restaurant perhaps 😉

The answer to the OP is so clear - it is amazing you this thread has managed to make 19 pages. Such is STW!!!

"I do not believe"..."you have belief then"..."Oh No, I dont."..."Oh, yes you do....[everyone]..."behind you!!!!!' 😉

We're on a deadline here, dude. A puppy, cat and small child are 80 minutes away from a tragic end...

Bigger picture time.

Go, on then. Post the picture

Lolz @ditchjockey 🙂

CM - the bigger picture:

[img] [/img]

Is that a heavenly face appearing thru the clouds??!!?? 😉

ITV isnt very christian

they cut this from johnathon ross

Minchin has clearly been scouring STW threads for his lyrics 🙂

ITV isnt very christian

It's political correctness gone stark raving bonkers I tell you.

Minchin has clearly been scouring STW threads for his lyrics

Bet he wouldn't dare write/perform something similar about Muslims though ..

joao3v16 - Member
You clearly have not heard much of his music and can't google, "ten foot C88k and a few hundred virgins" is not hard to find.

Now i have to go to all the trouble of kidnapping and executing a child puppy and cat , and i was just getting in to the festive spirit.

"Religion Poisons Everything".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-16307450

nsfw!!!!!!!!!
but yeah all religions are fair game for minchin

So you're gonna live in Paradise,
With a ten-foot cock and few hundred virgins,
So you're gonna sacrifice your life
For a shot at the greener grass,
And when the Lord comes down
With his shimmering rod of judgement,
He's gonna kick my heathen arse.

So if you...
Cover the bodies of your women
Everybody is grinning,
Because black is so slimming,
Though it's not great for swimming.
But it gives me an erection,
With the increased sexual tension,
What with the U.V. protection
That is second to none.
You'll find it all in the Quran
Just next to the bit that justifies guns,
And says that it's a sin
To take it up the bum,
Even if it's fun,
Even in the scrum.

Now i have to go to all the trouble of kidnapping and executing a child puppy and cat , and i was just getting in to the festive spirit.

I'll save you the bother of kidnapping. I've got all 3 you can use.

The cats got a bad eye, the dogs bone idle and the kid is a waste of space so no major loss. Fill your boots.

Just went to a crib service in the local church - admittedly only because my daughter was reading, but it was packed.

Richard Stilgoe with rude words?

Just went to a crib service in the local church - admittedly only because my daughter was reading, but it was packed.

Sounds like the sort of thing which you would expect in a Christian country.

What's the general consensus concerning whether Britain is a Christian country or not ?

Personally I think the matter is open for debate......... I reckon our Prime Minister should give his opinion, on this urgent and pressing issue.

Maybe we should start a thread where we can discuss it?

😆

Surely the most important thing is to continue the dance on the head of TJ's pin...

WOOW 20 pages and i read this

Personally I think the matter is open for debate......... I reckon our Prime Minister should give his opinion, on this urgent and pressing issue.

Just why is this an Urgent and pressing issue?

Its obvious this country is a Christian/Catholic country
in which other persons religions are able to practise without conflict
OK there are minor religious fanatics that none should focus on.

But the end of the day this is a Christian/Catholic country which embraces
other religions

Synopsis?

Protestant, surely...?

Just wrapping the last of the kids' presents and the church bells have started ringing in town.

Nice.

Surrounded By Zulus - Member
Synopsis?

Yep

I reckon our Prime Minister should give his opinion, on this urgent and pressing issue.

Nah - he's got far more important things to worry about, ernie
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16320959

Yep aracer, the government are certainly milking that story for all it's worth.

Still, I guess distracting attention away from the government's complete lack of competence with a nice big dollop of bellicose macho posturing and strutting, must be very hard to resist.

It's certainly going to make better tabloid headlines than the state of the economy, that's for sure.
And the suckers are bound to enthusiastically lap it all up, they always do.

Moral boosting speeches..........it's what the country needs. Sod the economy.

Unemployed ? Skint ? Young without a future ? Falling living standards ? Gonna work 'til you drop ? Whatever your problem, just be proud to be British......... 3000 people 8000 miles away can't be wrong.

For those losing the faith when it comes to reading this thread, I’ve attempted a synopsis

Posters who believe:
ditch_jockey; danceswithcats.

Posters who don’t believe:
RobHilton; kimbers; tjr666; konabunny; muddydwarf; jonahtonto; MrWoppit; RustySpanner; v9ninety; Northwind; TJ

Posters who believe that Dawkins is the Messiah:
colournoise

Posters who believe that he’s not: he’s a very naughty boy (with apologies to The Life of Brian)
tbc

Posters who believe that call-me-Dave is a moron:
Surrounded-by-Zulus; Vinnyeh

Posters who believe that call-me-Dave is the Messiah
aracer

Miscellania:
1. 39% get married in church; and the average wedding costs £21,000
2. The UK is a Christian country
3. No it isn’t
4. Yes it is
5. Christmas is mostly pagan
6. No it isn’t
7. Yes it is
8. My ontology is bigger than yours
9. No it isn’t
10. crankboy is going to kill a cat if this goes on much longer

Posters who believe that various morons will find any excuse to slate call-me-Dave without actually bothering to switch their brains on [s]is the Messiah[/s]
aracer

FTFY

.....find any excuse to slate call-me-Dave....

[i]Any excuse[/i] aracer ? You make it sound as if it would otherwise be a "struggle" !!

The plonka provides more material than I can manage.

Why, he even admits it himself sometimes :

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8905600/David-Cameron-our-plan-to-cut-debt-is-failing.html ]David Cameron: our plan to cut debt is failing[/url]

[img] [/img]

Quite

Any excuse aracer ? You make it sound as if it would otherwise be a "struggle" !!

Maybe not. Which is why it seems so strange that they feel the need to jump on something he said which wasn't that ridiculous (unless I've completely misunderstood your stance, you agree with him that the UK is a Christian country, which is the statement people were slating him for). You simply reinforce my point.

I'm not about to stick up for him when he is being an idiot, hence the need for the fix.

unless I've completely misunderstood your stance, you agree with him that the UK is a Christian country

No you haven't misunderstood my stance. He had to make a speech on the 400th anniversary of the King James Bible, what else was he expected to say ? And it's based on fact. Although undeniably on face of it, it seems a little strange that he needed to make the speech at all, but I guess that sort of thing comes with the job - a Labour PM would have done the same.

But I think you are wrong to offer it as just another example of 'various morons finding any excuse to slate call-me-Dave'. I think he's got slated by some on this thread not because it was him, but because they have a pathological hatred of religion and of Christianity in particular.

Note the amusing and ironic bigging up which the Pagan religion received from some. Of course for one individual the combined hatred he feels towards Christianity and the Tories worked particularly well, but I think you are wrong to assume that the general motive was simply a dislike of Cameron. IMO

I think we're going to have to get some declarations to resolve this one:

Those on this thread slating CMD because of his speech, [s]are you slating him because you hate[/s] which do you hate more, CMD or religion?

I think you are missing the point that you made aracer.......which is kinda strange 😕

By stating that "various morons" were "finding any excuse to slate call-me-Dave" the inference was very clear, ie, that they needed to find an excuse.

TJ, for example, does not need to find any excuse, Cameron provides plenty of material for TJ to work on. Although in TJ's case this thread was double-bonus day. Which is the point that I made.

People have been having a go at Christianity and Christians since the start. Even St Paul started out hating it. That's just how it is; it would be a sure sign that something was wrong if it wasn't happening.

My dear people, we are already the children of [s]God[/s] TJ
but what we are to be in the future has not yet been revealed;
all we know is, that when it is revealed
we shall be like him because we shall see him as he really is.
Epistles John 3:1/2